Fell off

David Martin

On 10/12/04 2:17 pm, in article
1102688269.000088.321920@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "dkahn400"
<dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Simon Mason wrote:
>
>> Cornering should be done very carefully, I try to keep my bike at
>> 90 degrees to the road at all times and steer carefully around bends.
>
> Does this mean that you lean your body into the curve, but try to keep
> the bike upright?

That is the one I do on ice. Seems to work fine for me (as do the studded
tyres).

The roads do seem to be slipperier this year. I have slid the bike a couple
of times and the car as well (which is quite impressive given my usual
cautious style of motoring).

...d

Simon Mason

"dkahn400" <dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1102688269.000088.321920@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Simon Mason wrote:
>
>> Cornering should be done very carefully, I try to keep my bike at
>> 90 degrees to the road at all times and steer carefully around bends.
>
> Does this mean that you lean your body into the curve, but try to keep
> the bike upright?

I slow right down to near walking pace (if necessary) and keep body and
bike upright and steer around the corner. During the summer when the roads
were dry I was using the countersteering technique where you move the bars
the opposite way to where you want to go, but the roads are too dodgy at the
moment.
--
Simon M.

Call me Bob

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:49:11 -0000, "Simon Mason"
<simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote:

>During the summer when the roads
>were dry I was using the countersteering technique where you move the bars
>the opposite way to where you want to go

I don't understand this, unless you are riding a speedway bike.

--

Call me "Bob"

"More oneness, less categories,
Open hearts, no strategies"

Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.

Simon Mason

"Call me Bob" <usenetCOFFEE@toomanypenguins.co.uk> wrote in message
news7ejr0dnssadjnq4gto5jpo9itfgcs4c9v@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:49:11 -0000, "Simon Mason"
> <simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>During the summer when the roads
>>were dry I was using the countersteering technique where you move the bars
>>the opposite way to where you want to go
>
> I don't understand this, unless you are riding a speedway bike.
>

Try it. Ride up to a left turn and move your bars to the right and see what
happens.

--
Simon M.

njf>badger

Call me Bob wrote:
>>During the summer when the roads
>>were dry I was using the countersteering technique where you move the bars
>>the opposite way to where you want to go
>
>
> I don't understand this, unless you are riding a speedway bike.

Works to lower the bike quickly into bends steering straight raises it
up quickly too, speedway is different as thats a powered slide, did it
on road bikes with big dia wheels (human and engine powered) and it
works as long as you have good grip and a tuned sense of balance, not
tired it with smaller wheels though....

Niel.

pk

Call me Bob wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:49:11 -0000, "Simon Mason"
> <simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> During the summer when the roads
>> were dry I was using the countersteering technique where you move
>> the bars the opposite way to where you want to go
>
> I don't understand this, unless you are riding a speedway bike.


anther topic subjected to intermiable debate in various places.

Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the right.
This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean left the bike
turns left.

Best demonstrated on a gently sloping carpark to remove pedalling from the
equation. Freewheel gently down hill, hands resting gently atop the bars.
Very gently move one hand forward. eg right hand forward, bike turns to the
right.

Pete Biggs

Simon Mason wrote:

> Try it. Ride up to a left turn and move your bars to the right and
> see what happens.

According to theory, that is the *only* way a bike can ever be steered
while riding, it's just that the initial subconscious twitch is so small
that you don't notice it.

In any case, the bike will lean to some extent when cornering. It's
impossible to keep it completely upright (unless pushing the bike at
walking speed).

My advice is nevermind any funny tricks, or trying to lean more than the
bike leans*, just simply keep the speed low and any braking sensible if
the surface is at all suspect.

* Jobst Brandt argues that this actually decreases grip. Can't find a
link now.

~PB

Simon Brooke

in message <31u2h6F3ghogsU1@individual.net>, Pete Biggs
('pwrinkledgrape{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc') wrote:

> Simon Mason wrote:
>
>> Try it. Ride up to a left turn and move your bars to the right and
>> see what happens.
>
> According to theory, that is the *only* way a bike can ever be steered
> while riding, it's just that the initial subconscious twitch is so
> small that you don't notice it.

To which I say this: rubbish.

It does work, of course, but it's by no means the only way to initiate
steering. The mistake lies in thinking either that the body of the
rider is a fixed mass WRT the bike, or that the inertia of the body has
no effect on the bike. Neither is true. If any of this were true,
riding no hands would not be possible.

> In any case, the bike will lean to some extent when cornering. It's
> impossible to keep it completely upright (unless pushing the bike at
> walking speed).

Depends how much you lean your body. Lean your body enough into the turn
and you can even lean the bike *out* of the turn. I don't recommend
doing this on your favourite bike because it's horribly unfair on your
spokes

> My advice is nevermind any funny tricks, or trying to lean more than
> the bike leans*, just simply keep the speed low and any braking
> sensible if the surface is at all suspect.

Indeed.

> * Jobst Brandt argues that this actually decreases grip. Can't find a
> link now.

Yes, but Jobst Brandt is rather inclined to shoot his mouth off on
matters of which he knows little. Scan through posts on r.b.t WRT
gyroscopic steering for examples.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a sixteen bit
;; patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a
;; four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that
;; can't stand one bit of competition -- anonymous

Brian Drury

Had a good look at the accident spot this morning. Very slippery, looks to
me like diesel fuel. Some kind soul had thrown a handful or two of sand
around so someone is aware.

Curiously this is satisfying in a way as without an explanation I would find
it hard to get confidence back. So the tyres are not to blame. Good, I
really like these tyres.

The various posting of wisdom are much appreciated, as were the comments
from cycling workmates who all seemed to have experienced this at one time
or another. It seems that the classic damage point is the hip bone. There is
both bruising and skin loss. Seems to me that a strategically placed tough
layer like Kevlar should at least protect the skin. Anyone know if there is
such a thing?

Took a couple of bends slowly at first this morning but was soon back to
normal.

For the record I have to say that the first person to help scrape me off the
road was in a big 4X4. Dunno if that means anything but there we are. Oh,
and yes I was wearing the H word, so another life saved by a ceiling tile.

Brian

Danny Colyer

pk wrote:
> Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
> movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the right.
> This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean left the bike
> turns left.

It's equally true on a recumbent. It's also much more noticeable,
possibly because of the lower centre of gravity.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Velvet

Danny Colyer wrote:
> pk wrote:
>
>> Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
>> movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the
>> right. This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean
>> left the bike turns left.
>
>
> It's equally true on a recumbent. It's also much more noticeable,
> possibly because of the lower centre of gravity.
>

Ah, now, have a question about this. Does it feel like an odd pre-turn
wiggle the wrong way?

--


Velvet

Mike Causer

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 18:12:28 +0000, Danny Colyer wrote:

> pk wrote:
>> Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
>> movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the right.
>> This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean left the
>> bike turns left.
>
> It's equally true on a recumbent. It's also much more noticeable,
> possibly because of the lower centre of gravity.

Except that my Speed Ross doesn't do it according to the theory. To lean
left the steering must be turned left. I agree completely that most
bikes, and all the motorbikes I've owned needed a countersteer movement,
but the Ross doesn't. And indeed the back tyre makes a quite noticable
noise if a healthy shove is made in the countersteer direction, where for
every other two-wheeler I've ridden the healthier the shove the quicker it
leaned.

One day I'm going to measure up the frame & forks as accurately as I can
and see if I can work out why the Ross is like this.


Mike

Roos Eisma

"Brian Drury" <briandotdruryatdsldotpipexdotcom> writes:

>The various posting of wisdom are much appreciated, as were the comments
>from cycling workmates who all seemed to have experienced this at one time
>or another. It seems that the classic damage point is the hip bone. There is
>both bruising and skin loss. Seems to me that a strategically placed tough
>layer like Kevlar should at least protect the skin. Anyone know if there is
>such a thing?

I remember reading about some sort of padded trousers for elderly
to prevent breaking hips when they fall.

Here's more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/894062.stm
http://www.hiprotector.com/padun.html

There's even a sporty model

Roos

chris French

In message <31s86iF3ds2c9U1@individual.net>, Pete Biggs
<pwrinkledgrape{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> writes
>Brian Drury wrote:
>...........
>> Tyres are Schwalbe Jets, until now I thought these were brilliant.
>> Not so sure now. There was no hint of losing traction, just a
>> seemingly instantaneous transfer from slant to horizontal. Should I
>> blame the tyres? This has never happened to me on slower tyres.
>
>Bad luck, I know exactly what that experience feels like: horrible.
>
>An instant slip can happen with any tyres on-road if the surface is
>slippery enough or you lean far enough.

Indeed, I came off on a straight road, on a warm sunny day once on the
tourer.

coasting at a fair speed (the tail end of a hill), I saw what looked
like a patch of water , I hiy iy square on, next second, bang I was on
the ground, no warning at all - it turned out to be a patch of oil or
diesel.

I also hurt both knees, when I came off on the Brommie on cold winters
morning, again, going straight, hit a slippy patch and the front juts
went away from me.

--
Chris French, Leeds