How many gears do you need?

Jon Senior

Dave Kahn dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk opined the following...
> For once I think half_pint has a valid point. The profusion of gears
> on bicycles is mainly about marketing. Many people are buying bikes
> with a huge range of gears that they will never need or use, or even
> discover how to use. I sometimes see people spinning along who've
> clearly run out of gears at the top end although they have at least 26
> lower ones. Their bikes are geared wrongly for the use that's being
> made of them.
>
> Many people with low end MTBs, using them as commuters or utility
> bikes, would be much better off on a traditional roadster with
> mudguards, chainguard, a 3-speed Sturmey Archer and a basket on the
> handlebars. Fashion dictates they cannot buy the bike that best suits
> their needs.

True. But it is more a case (As you alluded to) of the wrong gears
rather than too many gears. Living, as I do, in a city with more than
its fair share of hills, a 3-speed SA hub is not always the best
solution.

I do however find it daft that even bike shops seem to acknowledge that
the bikes they sell are ill-equipped for real use (Mudguards? Racks?)
but have yet seen fit to redress the balance.

Jon

Michael MacClancy

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:19:37 -0000, Jon Senior wrote:


>
> I do however find it daft that even bike shops seem to acknowledge that
> the bikes they sell are ill-equipped for real use (Mudguards? Racks?)
> but have yet seen fit to redress the balance.
>
> Jon

It may be daft for bike shops to acknowledge this practice but not daft to
do it.

It may be salesmanship.

I strongly suspect that they make a lot more money from selling a bike and
subsequently selling and fitting (probably high margin) accessories such as
mudguards, racks, lights, speedos and pumps than they would by selling
'fully equipped' bikes.
--
Michael MacClancy

Jon Senior

Michael MacClancy herzel@nospamo2.co.uk opined the following...
> It may be daft for bike shops to acknowledge this practice but not daft to
> do it.
>
> It may be salesmanship.
>
> I strongly suspect that they make a lot more money from selling a bike and
> subsequently selling and fitting (probably high margin) accessories such as
> mudguards, racks, lights, speedos and pumps than they would by selling
> 'fully equipped' bikes.

A sadly true observation. I guess it's possible that it's easier to sell
a cheap bike and then bump up the price with accessories than to include
them at the higher price in the first place.

Of course, where they lose out is that as they are seen an "extras" many
people don't buy them. Hence the high proportion of riders with the
winter black muddy stripe up their back.

Jon

Phil Cook

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:13:51 +0000, davek wrote:

>half_pint wrote:
>> Also don't a lot of track racing bikes only have one gear?
>
>/All/ track bikes have only one gear - it's in the rules, isn't it? And
>they don't have brakes either, which again is in the rules.
>
>None of this is really relevant to normal street riding, though. Track
>cyclists only ever have to deal with traffic going the same way as them,

In an ideal world :-)

>they never have to stop at the lights (some might argue the same applies
>to street cyclists) and they never have to go up hills.

They do go up hills, but they aren't very long. Most of the time they
take a run at them and bust breeze up the banking but there are
occasions, like in match sprinting, where they will go *slowly* up the
banking.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Arthur Clune

Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote:

: A sadly true observation. I guess it's possible that it's easier to sell
: a cheap bike and then bump up the price with accessories than to include
: them at the higher price in the first place.

It avoids the sticker shock moment where people go "£150! For a bike!".

The bike shop near me (Cycle Heaven) sells imported Dutch roadsters. You
know the sort: hub gears (usually 5 speed), full chainguard, mudguard,
skirt guard, upright position, little lock on the back wheel, stainless
everything, drum brakes, dynamos, etc.

Ideal for town for most people. One thing they are not, however, is
cheap (about £500, which is excellent for a bike that will last for
years and years and need very little doing to it, but more that most
want to pay)

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

Peter Clinch

Arthur Clune wrote:

> Ideal for town for most people. One thing they are not, however, is
> cheap (about £500, which is excellent for a bike that will last for
> years and years and need very little doing to it, but more that most
> want to pay)

And another thing it isn't is sporty, or pretending to be that way. The
number of bikes with weird stuff like racks and mudguards is increasing
but I think it may well be the case in the UK that a lot of people don't
want them. Or think they don't...

I note in the Kona Smoke marketing there's "And yes, fenders [mudguards
spelled the merkin way] are cool!", as if Kona are trying to give people
what they probably need /and/ persuading them it's the same as they
think they want!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Just zis Guy, you know?

On 3 Dec 2004 04:06:52 -0800, dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk (Dave Kahn) wrote
in message <57db8bde.0412030406.2e33c21a@posting.google.com>:

>The profusion of gears on bicycles is mainly about marketing.

For differing values of mainly. I use every single gear on my bike,
and I change frequently, because I like to keep my speed up and my
cadence in the comfort zone.

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales

Mark van Gorkom

>> rims, then a lot of things might shift.
>
>Call me crazy, but I'm seriously considering retiring my aged
>Stumpjumper and getting a speedhub equiped mtb for off-roading. A
>couple of people have them off the peg (see e.g
><http://www.sjscycles.com/pdfFiles/ThornRavenEnduro04Web.pdf> , or
>maybe I'd get something custom made.
>
>The main thing I have reservations about is not the range or spacing
>of the gearing, but the fact that you need to use the Rohloff
>grip-shift style shifter, but I've kind of got used to that on my
>commuting bike now.

I don't much like Gripshifts either, but happily Speedhubs are much
lighter shifting than derailleurs. In fact my second Rohloff turns
lightly enough that you might think it's an electric switch. It helps
to route the shifter cables as free as is practical. You can also
order a full-length shifter handle from Cordes (www.jancordes.de) or
ligfietsshop Tempelman (www.ligfietsshop.nl)

Mark van Gorkom.

Simon Brooke

in message <319p8sF397qmnU1@individual.net>, davek
('swangulstoke@hotmail.com') wrote:

> Pete Biggs wrote:
>> I don't think 24, 27 or even 30 gears are ridiculous.
>
> Does a bike with 30 sprocket combinations ever have 30 /different/
> gears?
>
> And even if it did, how many of them would you actually use? How
> small/large would the incremements have to be to be to make that many
> gears useful?

One tooth increments are perfectly useful; and it's unlikely that on a
normal 30 speed setup you'd have any two which were precisely
identical, although it's quite likely that you'll have some which are
pretty similar. My 20 speed setup has no duplicate gears (52-39 front,
13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26 rear). Only the highest four gears on the
52 tooth chainring are higher than the highest gear on the 39 tooth
chainring; similarly only the lowest four on the 39 tooth are lower
than the lowest on the 52 tooth. Nevertheless there are eighteen
different ratios which I do actually regularly use.

Of course something (like a Rohloff) which offers 14 equally spaced
sequential ratios may well be more useful than the 20 ratios with an
interleaved pattern.


--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing left for us to do
but pick up the pieces.

Simon Brooke

in message <87llcgmj16.fsf@rudin.co.uk>, Paul Rudin
('paul.rudin@ntlworld.com') wrote:

> Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:07:45 GMT, Paul Rudin
>> <paul.rudin@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Depends - my speedhub only has 14, but they're 14 evenly spaced gears
>>
>> Yes, I realised as soon as I posted that I was taking a very
>> MTB-centric view of things. If you're not riding a "3x8" mech on 26"
>> rims, then a lot of things might shift.
>
> Call me crazy, but I'm seriously considering retiring my aged
> Stumpjumper and getting a speedhub equiped mtb for off-roading. A
> couple of people have them off the peg (see e.g
> <http://www.sjscycles.com/pdfFiles/ThornRavenEnduro04Web.pdf> , or
> maybe I'd get something custom made.

[fx: erie whisper]
Nicolai, my boy. Nicolai...

> The main thing I have reservations about is not the range or spacing
> of the gearing, but the fact that you need to use the Rohloff
> grip-shift style shifter, but I've kind of got used to that on my
> commuting bike now.

I've replaced the trigger shifters on both my good mountain bikes with
gripshifts.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

' ' <------- this blank intentionally spaced left

Jon Senior

Simon Brooke simon@jasmine.org.uk opined the following...
> Of course something (like a Rohloff) which offers 14 equally spaced
> sequential ratios may well be more useful than the 20 ratios with an
> interleaved pattern.

Not an issue with a Rohloff I know, but the interleaving does ensure
that for any given gear, there is probably a combination which gives
close to the ratio that you want and has an acceptable chainline.

Jon

half_pint

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c1a6a341447a01989d3a@news.clara.net...
> Dave Kahn dkahn400@yahoo.co.uk opined the following...
> > For once I think half_pint has a valid point. The profusion of gears
> > on bicycles is mainly about marketing. Many people are buying bikes
> > with a huge range of gears that they will never need or use, or even
> > discover how to use. I sometimes see people spinning along who've
> > clearly run out of gears at the top end although they have at least 26
> > lower ones. Their bikes are geared wrongly for the use that's being
> > made of them.
> >
> > Many people with low end MTBs, using them as commuters or utility
> > bikes, would be much better off on a traditional roadster with
> > mudguards, chainguard, a 3-speed Sturmey Archer and a basket on the
> > handlebars. Fashion dictates they cannot buy the bike that best suits
> > their needs.
>
> True. But it is more a case (As you alluded to) of the wrong gears
> rather than too many gears. Living, as I do, in a city with more than
> its fair share of hills, a 3-speed SA hub is not always the best
> solution.
>
> I do however find it daft that even bike shops seem to acknowledge that
> the bikes they sell are ill-equipped for real use (Mudguards? Racks?)
> but have yet seen fit to redress the balance.


Speaking of racks, I don't think it is possible to fit a rack
to some mountain bikes with rear suspension, or indeed
any bbike with rear suspension.

>
> Jon

Jon Senior

half_pint info@uk.millwardbrown.com opined the following...
> Speaking of racks, I don't think it is possible to fit a rack
> to some mountain bikes with rear suspension, or indeed
> any bbike with rear suspension.

Not a standard rack, no. But you can get seatpost mounted racks which
would allow you to carry a rackpack with day stuff in.

I think that if you wanted to carry a lot of things you'd need to look
at a trailer, but if you're carrying that much gear on a full-sus MTB
you might have chosen the wrong vehicle! ;-)

In the world of recumbents, HPVelotechnic have a beautiful solution to
the problem, but it probably can't be retrofitted to a diamond frame (Or
varient thereof) bike.

Jon

Just zis Guy, you know?

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:23:28 -0000, "half_wit"
<info@uk.millwardbrown.com> wrote in message
<31bp72F3b2relU1@individual.net>:

>Speaking of racks, I don't think it is possible to fit a rack
>to some mountain bikes with rear suspension, or indeed
>any bbike with rear suspension.

I'll just go and take the rack off my rear-suspended bike, then.

IOW: Wrong /again/.

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales