Assault on Fallujah - Justified?

limerickman

Finally, a voice of sanity from the military perspective.

The Black Watch have been hung out to dry.
They're part of the most professional fighting force in the world - the British Army.
Now they're expected to take commands from the an army which has been shown to be inept, unprofessional - the US Army.
Let's be clear - Bliar has hung out the Black Watch.

I feel very sorry for those lads.
They have no choice but to obey orders.
Imagine being caught in that compromise where you're political masters sell you down the swany and let you be ordered around by the most inept
army in the world.
Doesn't bear thinking about.

FredC

We like you, and generally you post well. Don't you think it better, now that Yasser has died to concentrate on your own doorstep as most of your post will apply in the circumstances, unless Bush & Co can bang a few heads together in the Knesset, or is Sharon still controlling America as he stated in a cabinet meeting to Peres broadcast live on Kol Yisrael. How did your ride in the Negev go. I want to know if it was a success?

ItsikH

It feels good to know that my posts are read and appreciated - thanks!
Iraq is just a few miles away - I should say a cycling distance. The future of Iraq is almost as relevant to Israel as the furure of the occupied territories. As you may have noticed, I am quite pessimistic about both. Still there is always a chance, and I would be happy to be proven wrong. In the Palestinian context, the expected outcome of Arafat's death would be anarchy followed by extremists taking over and escalation of the conflict (yes, it could get much worse). The optimistic alternative would be the relatively moderate Abu Mazen and Dachlan taking control and this time with a far better chance for a real peace process. Even then, an Israeli partner might not be available this time.
BTW, Sharon is not controlling America, he is barely controlling his own cabinet.
As for the cross-country tour - incredible! Next time in the spring. See my post http://www.cyclingforums.com/t192544.html.

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Kan Ya Ma Kan...

FredC

Any ideas why Sharon said Israel controlled America, when he attacked Prime Minister Peres in public, or have you already answered that above in your post? I noted that Binjamin Netanyaou castigated Yasser, and I think that BN was one of the worst, even though he did get reelected after gross failure. I think that it's best to stay in the Negev with the Sabrees.

ItsikH

I rarely listen to Sharon or any other polititians in this country - they can't tell the truth even if their lives depended on it . BN is much worse than Sharon when it comes to integrity (poor choice of word for both of them, I must say).
As for "controlling" America - no point in even referring to such nonsense. Maybe he thinks that voters might believe that - either he or his voters aren't so smart. As I said - he can't control his cabinet ministers, how could he control America?
BTW, you called Peres PM - he is not neither has ever been the elected PM! The sad history of Shimon Peres: His first attempt was in 1974, after Golda Meir's resignation, he was defeated by Rabin, who later won the general elections. In 1977 he won the party, then lost to Begin in the general elections. It goes on and on (excpet for a short rotation period in the 80's with Shamir) until 1992 when Rabin won the party and the general elections. When Rabin was assasinated (may his murderer rot in hell), Peres replaced him until defeated by Benjamin Netanyahu. It has been said that Peres felt defeated for the last time - he didn't even get the martir's death.

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Kan Ya Ma Kan...

FredC

Erevtov, vay Shabat Shalom Itsik. Sleekah, the word I intended to use was Minister. Toda rabah

FredC

Hey just look at it this way. The Wankee Doodle Yankees have encircled Fallujah for ages and done eff all. In come the UK's Black Watch and the Scot's Guard et Voila job done in days in soft hats and proud plumes. The locals say that they the Brit's have saved them the Murkyans.

limerickman

Fred C - did you see C4 news tonight ?
Lindsay Hilsum is embedded (propaganised) : she can only report what the Yanks allow her to report.
Everything according to her was going well.
But she slipped something in as well - she said that they were told to report that everything was going well last Tuesday, and again last Thursday, and again today !

Sky report that if the Merkins think they have control of Fallujah, then why are there still raging battles ?
Seems to me that there is some media management going on here - I think the Merkins are fighting hard for what they have in Fallujah and it appears to be by no means over.

FredC

Good Lord Lim,
Media management, surely not. The Merkiuns fighting, surely not. They won't even understand the Scots when they speak. They might even shoot them proclaiming that they thought that they had stolen clothing from a dead enemy. Your house must like MCM's. Mission Control. Has the Beeb got an imbedded one in Fallujah?.Tell the Oirish riders where we live.

FredC

Erevtov Fixit,
What amazes me most on this topic is that I expected more of the same from American posters, but there is nothing from them of any construction. Of course Pseudo Judeo White arse, did a bit of token posturing as usual. But in general they have not been brainwashed enough, or might it be the case be that the American government haven't put the production together for general consumption to re-inforce that Bush is the LEADER of his people?

Ssushi

"Attention all Liberals, dry your tears, see a shrink and get over it" - jesus what a stoopid sig.!!!

Ssushi

US press was saying it was over then saying theres fierce fighting... come on make up your mind! I'm glad that they are making a fight of it, if it was my country I'd do the same... and so would we all I suspect!

Carrera

Probably what has happened is the various groups disappeared. The fact remains these various groups don't have anything like the fire-power to take on helicopters and tanks - it was the same when the Afghans fought the Russians. So, they tend to fade away and use hit and run tactics.
I think there's more of a comparison here between Iraq and the Soviets in Afghanistan since the Afghan war crippled the USSR economy. But it went on for years.
It will end with Fallujah ruined as a city and the various fighters dispersed elsewhere, sabotaging oil pipelines and wreaking havoc.
The big mistake here is how the U.S. has united the moderate resistance fighters with hard-core terrorists. The terrorists you can't reason with but the former Iraqi Army just resent the occupation. It's obvious they should just hold a U.N. supervised election and then let Iraq run its own destiny or let Arab states take care of security and restabilise Iraq.
I agree with Madonna on that score.

limerickman

Yes, it will be a hit and run gureilla war - which illustrates the sheer futility of the USA attack on Fallujah.
What has that attack done ?

It has moved the "rebels" from one city - and has forced them to move to another location.
It has antagonised the civilian population of a town with no water or electricity for the past five days.
It has provided an image to the world of the USA firing at Mosques (whether the "rebels" are in the Mosque or not - the fact is that a picture of a tank with the US insignia, firing on a Mosque can be used as a great recruiting tool
by those Muslims who decide to take up arms).
The entire war has been a failure to win hearts and minds (tell me how many people in Fallujah think that the Yanks have done a good job ?).

Setting aside the ethical/moral/legal question of this entire war since March 2003 : the Yanks tactics have been wrong.
You cannot fight a guerilla warfare with equipment alone.
It doesn't matter how much technology is employed to fight.
The only way to win this military confrontation is to flood Iraq with troops.
Will this be done ?
Not a hope in hell.
That's why the USA are putting pressure on the British PM for extra troops.

I agree with Carrera - this entire adventure in to Iraq has been a failure and it is draining the US economy.