How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Arathald

I think you missed something....

I think we need to define the terms we use (to avoid using them where not appropriate)

Main Entry: mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Old English morthor; partly from Old French murdre, of Germanic origin
: the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing another under circumstances defined by statute (as with premeditation); especially : such a crime committed purposely, knowingly, and recklessly with extreme indifference to human life or during the course of a serious felony (as robbery or rape) —compare COLD BLOOD, COOLING TIME, HOMICIDE, MANSLAUGHTER
NOTE: Self-defense, necessity, and lack of capacity for criminal responsibility (as because of insanity) are defenses to a charge of murder. Most state statutes and the U.S. Code divide murder into two degrees. Florida, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania currently have three degrees of murder. Some states do not assign degrees of murder.

Upstroke

I have had cans and bottles thrown at me, I have had 3 differant occasions where people stopped their vehicles and got out to thrash me because I slowed them down. I ride in the country alone at times. How am I going to protect myself during a 40 mile ride into headwinds with multiple assailants???
The Right ( it is a Right ) of self protection does not end at your front door.

Upstroke

That is a personal opinion. Unfortunatly since the UK banned guns a few years ago the crime statistics have gone through the roof.
Criminals have firearms but, Decent Folks don't have a way to protect themselves in the UK. Am I wrong ??

Arathald

Though I support the right to carry guns, I think a gun would be most inappropriate in your situation. No one should be throwing garbage at you, but pulling a gun on them would be a sure sign of a very short fuse. You do have the right to protect yourself, but in a reasonable manner (I would personally get the license plate number and call the police using the cell phone you should always have with you-- even if the police don't do anything, that would scare most people off right away).

by the way- what area is this you're talking about?

Upstroke

You can't shoot people driving away from you, that would be bad ( jail) . As for police, In rural areas they could never get there in time. If some clown('s) thinks it would be amusing to kick my ass in the middle of nowhere, the conversation would go like this:
"Guys, I don't want any trouble, I'm scared for my safety." At this time I pull said firearm out and repeat " This is unnecessary please get in your car and go." " Since you can see I have a firearm I will have to assume that any advancement towards me means your are going to harm or kill me." The first guy that takes 2 steps gets 2 in the chest and one in the forehead. Then wait and see what the 2nd guy does.

Arathald

2 in the chest and one in the forehead? That's shoot to kill. That's a little extreme. in a situation like that, however, I would have no objection to shooting a leg (there's seriously something wrong if they keep advancing after that-- then maybe soemthing more serious). A warning shot by their feet might be nice first, too. I will admit, though, thet there is a point that a kill shot is fair game. But I think it takes a little longer to get to that point than you're saying (given, of course, that they are relitively unarmed- a knife makes things go faster, and if they pull a gun, you can do whatever you have to).

Upstroke

You have valid point, partially, a warning shot might defuse the situation, you'd have to judge who got out of the car and what they were saying. Wounding someone will get you sued , right or wrong. Dead guys don't testify too well. When the Firearm is out, F&@k around time is over, you are in fear of your safety. I've been carrying firearms around for 25 years, saved me once. That was in the 80's I don't live in fear but I won't be a victum.

Arathald

Please share the story about your gun saving you. I think I saw someone complaining that no one has yet come forward with a time their gun actually saved their life. If their point was invalid, you may be the one to show it.

Oh, and you can be sued for wrongful death if anyone thinks you used excessive force. It's often a lose-lose if you're forced to use your firearm. A lot of times you can just hope that it provides you with the best possible outcome (sometimes it will, sometimes it will get you into more trouble than it's worth-- that's where the personal responsibility comes in).

And it is a lot harder to sue you if you gave fair warning, especially if that warning included a warning shot.

dgregory57

Warning shots are dangerous and discouraged.

The military, and I understand many police departments prohibit warning shots.

A warning shot effectively creates a bullet flying through the air with no target, and could accidentally hit something or someone uinintended. The chance of this happening reduces if aimed at a specific target that would stop or significantly slw the bullet.

Also, if worried about legal implcations, it would be difficult to prove you were firing a warning shot, and didn't just miss, so it would potentially still be assault with a deadly weapon.

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martin_j001

Obviosuly you are not intelligent enough to read, as what I'm about to say has been posted before. No one here is talking of threatening anyone with a gun at all--the issue is whether or not you carry a gun, not whether or not you use it, brandish it or whatever. In fact, it has been said MANY TIMES that this practice is blatantly illegal--whether you can carry legally or not. With any minor training in concealed carry, you are taught to use your weapon ONLY as a last resort. And, if you do pull your weapon, you better need it and use it right then and there--no waiting. Its really simple.

As far as what else guns are used for....
Sport shooting (there are almost 100 different types of sport that involve handguns and rifles in this country, all that have better safety records than little league baseball).

Hunting (a pastime practiced in every single country in the world, and still used in most countries of the world today to provide food--also with a safety record higher than most kids sports).

And lastly...defense. Whether you legally carry outside your home, or simply own one to protect you and your family while at home.

Think of it this way. I could sit here and say that a car's sole purpose is to get from point a to point b. However, when that women in texas ran down her husband a couple years ago--the purpose of that car was to kill. Cars can be used as weapons too, and as cyclists we can all agree to that, as I'm sure we know someone who has been injured by a car. The same is absolutely true of a hammer. It wasn't designed to do anything other than hit and pull nails, but in many cases it has been used to kill someone. Just because some people misuse cars and hammers doesn't mean we should outlaw them, does it?

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--Jeff
my Gunnar Roadie
The one who dies with the most tattoos wins!!
For sale: Time Impact Mag pedals; Dura Ace 7700 crankset (172.5), front der. (braze), bottom bracket (109.5). PM or email martin_j001 at hotmail dot com

martin_j001

The point about being sued by someone (or their family) that you injured or killed is something every firearm owner should be aware of. It can, and does happen. As you said, when it comes down to it, there is always a level or personal responsibility involved.

However, I am going to adamantly disagree that any person other than LEO or military EVER fire a warning shot. This can injure someone that you don't intend to if the bullet were to go stray. Its not worth the chance at all. Also, from what I have been taught, your life needs to be in clear danger to pull your weapon and use it. This is a rule I'll stick by. If someone is threatening my life directly, or that of my wife, I am not going to warn them or fire a warning shot at all. My first shot would be the one that ends the situation, and then my gun would return to where it came from until the police arrived.

__________________
--Jeff
my Gunnar Roadie
The one who dies with the most tattoos wins!!
For sale: Time Impact Mag pedals; Dura Ace 7700 crankset (172.5), front der. (braze), bottom bracket (109.5). PM or email martin_j001 at hotmail dot com

martin_j001

Here is some info for people reading this thread.

From http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/pdf/03sec2.pdf (FBI file), Violent crime section, table 2.9:
roughly 13,000 total murders in 1999.
roughly 8,500 due to guns (please take notice of all the other categories of weapons on the table that are used to kill people.

From http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html and http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/SPC0003.pdf (page 25 of report, 31 of the pdf) and http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr53/nvsr53_15.pdf (see Results section, Causes of Death, page 4) :
roughly 42,000 people died due to automobiles, with 3.4 million more injured.
roughly 20,000 people die of the common flu every year.
roughly 684,000 died of heart disease
roughly 74,000 die of diabetes
number of people that die of disease in general-- about 2.5 million per year, in the US alone.

In the large scale of things, firearms in the US are not a leading cause of death in general. While they are used for many murders, when you look into the statistics further, you find that the handguns are used to kill people during the comission of other crimes: specifically during robberies, narcotics dealings, and "other arguments" (which we've all heard of on the news before--"One man approached the car and had words with the other man, at which time shots were fired and the man in the car ended up dead", etc). (statistics from http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/pdf/03sec2.pdf , Violent Crime section, table 2.12).

Now, as to where guns are coming from when they are used in crimes--from http://neahin.org/programs/schoolsa...ics.htm#america and http://neahin.org/programs/schoolsa...CrimesChart.pdf :
"According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access "Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy" visit www.agsfoundation.com."

From the second link above, the pdf file, we can see that in many states, if not most, the guns used in the commission of ANY crimes are stolen from their legal owners, or obtained illegally from licensed gun dealers-- "Studies show that 1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), the dealer that armed the DC area sniper is among this small group of problem gun dealers that "supply the suppliers" who funnel guns to the nation's criminals. (Between 1997 and 2001, guns sold by this dealer were involved in 52 crimes, including homicides, kidnappings and assaults. Still open today, it also can't account for 238 guns or say whether they were stolen, lost or sold, or if their buyers underwent felony-background checks.) As a result, these few gun dealers have a vastly disproportionate impact on public safety. The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources. For more details, click here."




All of this information all simply points to the facts that:
a) firearms are not by any means a big threat to anyone in the US on a daily basis--murder isn't even near the top of the list in terms of causes of death
b)murders with firearms are committed, the majority of the time, in the commission of another crime--these people are criminals already, before they ever killed someone
c)firearms used in crimes are most often illegally obtained--stolen or bought on the black market
d)taking firearms away from citizens who legally own them won't do much at all for America, as so many illegal firearms will remain in the possession of criminals who intend to use them to commit crimes
e)teaching legal gun owners how to properly store their firearms, whether it be at the office, at home or in the car--would be one of the best ways to limit the number of illegal guns in circulation

Guns don't kill people--they aren't the problem. Criminals kill people--they're the problem.

__________________
--Jeff
my Gunnar Roadie
The one who dies with the most tattoos wins!!
For sale: Time Impact Mag pedals; Dura Ace 7700 crankset (172.5), front der. (braze), bottom bracket (109.5). PM or email martin_j001 at hotmail dot com

dgregory57

Jeff,

You can probably tell by my previous posts that I don't oppose your position like some, but you probably also notice that I just HAVE to point out self-defeating arguments when I see them. I have no problems helping to strengthen aguments for or against any topic, as it leads to increased understanding by anyone with a mind open enough to examine the facts.

It seems that you are promoting (or at least pointing to people who promote) keping guns locked up. This is probably a good thing.

You also seemed to promote in earlier messages that a legitimate usage for guns is self-defense especially in the home (also a good point).

However, in my opinion,self-defense is best accomplished by quick decisive action, and if you have to get your key and unlock your case (or dial a combination) then I would tend to support the alternatives, including runing like hell and screaming...

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huhenio

I cannot wait to get my permit. I dont want to be unnarmed going through Norristow. Still ... my wrench extension provides enough leverage. I had to intervene in a mugging once and I did not have any time to get my metal friend.

For all the gun haters out there ... enjoy the comfort of having zero level of threat. Some of us we are not so lucky and our level of threat is greater than zero.

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2003 Gary Fisher Zebrano (standard gearing)
Comfort commuter with drop and aero bars.
Think of a Buick.

1974 Schwinn Traveler Fixed Gear Conversion (42x13)

Think of some medieval torture element that goes fast

Wheelist, show me the bike!!!!!!!