How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

dcloud

LOL ... Good one. I couldn't have said it better myself.

- dc

teton explorer

You are the one that is confused. I don't own a gun and never will. But the vast majority of gun owners are not pro killing. They have them for protection and hope they will never have to use them. And the majority of shootings end up with injured, not dead, people. So, no, I still fail to see the contradiction.

teton explorer

Pay attention. I never said that the 2nd Amendment applies only to government-authorized militias. The point was that people will use the 2nd Amendment as a blanket excuse for arguing everyone has the "right" to carry a gun, without having actually read the 2nd Amendment.

By the way, please feel free to name the legal scholars to which you are referring, and their specific writings. Also, cite the published court opinions to which you are referring. Its easy to state that arguments have been "discredited." Its more difficult to actually back it up with evidence.

mitosis

So what are guns for?

Why were they invented?

Wave one in front of someone and what are they expecting? A big cheery hello?

Guns don't offer protection. Pull one on someone who also has one and you are inviting them to shoot you.

Guns are devices for killing. If you want protection, wear armour.

teton explorer

Have you heard of hyperbole? Its purposeful exaggeration to make a point. Obviously, the passage you selectively quoted was not to be taken literally.

But as long as we are being quite literal, I'll take you up on your bet. I'm confident that not EVERY person that has indicated they are carrying when they ride have the proper permit, i.e., concealed carry permit.

teton explorer

Gee, why not just carry a shotgun, just to be sure? Or perhaps a rocket propelled grenade just to make sure they don't get away.

teton explorer

Like I said, I'm not a gun owner. But I'm not just spouting off without a knowlege of the facts, like . . . for example . . . you. To say the only purpose for a gun to to kill is extremely naive, as is assuming that pulling a gun on someone is inviting them to shoot you. I have several friends that carry guns. They have pulled them on several occassions. In EVERY ONE of those occassions, the person from whom they needed protection fled. My friends protected themselves and/or their families WITHOUT EVEN FIRING A SHOT, much less killing someone.

homeycheese

freedom is not easy to come by and the freedoms we have here in the US (and many take for granted) sometimes come with a very dear price. as to your question, yes, companies and individuals are held accountable if items such as guns are knowlingly used in the commission of a crime and the penalties can be stiff. However, in a country with over 250 million citizens, don't believe that the dialog on this forum is "normal" and indicitive of the US.

what is important for you to know, trading individual freedoms (like legally owning a firearm) for the security of a "big brother" government to watch over us has never lead to a free society. those people that keep stuffing themselves into shipping containers and boarding flimsy rubber rafts in an effort to reach our shores know very well what individual freedoms can mean.

EoinC

Granted, although we (New Zealand and Australia seem to manage without a Big Brother Government or the 'right' to bear arms. I don't actually see why it has to be one or the other. We also get visitations from people taking great risks to escape the problems of their own Nations, prefering the freedoms that we have on offer.

Kazoo

you do realize that pretty much every arguments in this thread are "what if..." and based on fear. You'd be most likely to kill a random person cause you feared he might do something. Such an American way of thinking. The only kind of strike is a pre-emptive strike eh? You whole society is raised on fear and that's how the government controls you puppets.

martin_j001

I agree with what you are saying in this aspect--that we need to reduce the number of illegal firearms out there. Personally, even as a gun owner and supporter of the right to concealed carry, I would be happy to see more action taken to get illegal guns off the streets. The problem in doing so is illustrated quite well in this thread though: there are pro-gun people and there are anit-gun people, and they are on two different sides of the spectrum and neither wants to give an inch.

The staunch anti-gun people tend to think that guns themselves kill people, and that the only reason for wanting a gun is to kill. They see no practical/useful purpose for the presence of guns in our society at all. In this stance, we see a very close minded attitude towards guns, and this stance fails to see what the actual problem is with guns in the US (which, as EoinC points out above is more related to the presence of illegal guns in the US).

The staunch pro-gun people can be just as bad, thinking that their right to own and carry a gun should come before the rights of many other people. They think that they should be allowed to carry, conceal, buy, sell and trade a gun whenever and where ever they feel it necessary--completely being close minded and locked into their views on why everyone should see it their way.

The close minded-ness is the problem here. One the anti-gun side you have things like the Brady Campaign, which effectively banned guns based more on looks than on use (keep in mind that most every gun holds many bullets and is fully capable of killing if it is used in that manner, not just a few of them....). On the other side, we have the NRA, which strives to "protect" the rights of gun owners. Neither of these groups really wants to address the real issue at hand--the presence of grey/black market guns that are readily available in this country. The fact is that, yes, at one time or another, these guns were legal. Somehow they have made it into the wrong hands--and personally I'd like to see both groups (pro and anit-gun) try to come up with a better way to keep this from happening. It would be great to see this happen without "pissing off" either party too badly, but I don't think that can happen because of the close minded-ness. So, we're left with the two groups once again to try and battle it out with some pretty ridiculous ideas each....

__________________
--Jeff
my Gunnar Roadie
The one who dies with the most tattoos wins!!
For sale: Time Impact Mag pedals; Dura Ace 7700 crankset (172.5), front der. (braze), bottom bracket (109.5). PM or email martin_j001 at hotmail dot com

mikado

I never said 'non lethal' weapons were safe, thats why I stated "if used on a healthy adult". They are numberous cases were old or ill (specially heard deceases) persones were killed.



Put apart the fact that these 'thugs' theory is for 99% of you guys a pure view of the mind as you prolly never suffer a 'lethal' attack, there is no reason you'd prefer to kill a man rather than set him unconscious (or unable to harm). A citizen has no right to apply his own justice. If your victim of a theft, you have the right to defend yourself, and have the police and justice make theyr job. This is how civilized society work. If you think you can put someone to death by your own justice, your are not civilized at all.

martin_j001

While I agree with this in terms of theft (death is not a reasonable punishment for theft alone), criminals do not agree that your right to life is important at all--they have no respect for due process, if they want your stereo, jewelry, tv, car, etc-- they may be willing to kill you or your family memebers for it. This is why many people decide to use their right to protect themselves and their loved ones by carrying firearms. If anyone here has ever been a victim of a violent crime, I'm sure you're aware that there is no time to make a call to the cops to get them to show up until after the crime is finished, as it happens so quick--you really are on your own to defend yourself. Until there are thousands more police officers, or thousands less criminals, your best defense against violent crimes is usually going to be yourself (whether or not you choose to use a gun or any other weapon is up to you).

__________________
--Jeff
my Gunnar Roadie
The one who dies with the most tattoos wins!!
For sale: Time Impact Mag pedals; Dura Ace 7700 crankset (172.5), front der. (braze), bottom bracket (109.5). PM or email martin_j001 at hotmail dot com

Kazoo

I used to work in a dep and we've been robed a couple time, the worst thing you can do is to not cooperate, if you try to fight or wave a gun around you well get hurt. if they want money just give it to them its only money.