Page 174 - How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

29-07.-2008, 11:19 AM

#2596

stevebaby

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Craggy Island

Posts: 2,780

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB

Not even church is safe any more...

7 wounded this morning.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/0...ref=mpstoryview

Yes..."Just stay away from those bad neighborhoods."

Hmmm? Where have I heard that one before? Church must be a very bad neighborhood, huh?

Let's see....a rabid Conservative (angered by his FOODSTAMPS(!) being cut off) attacks a Church with a record of espousing women's rights, desegregation and gay rights, killing 2 of its members....and spongebrain wants to supply MORE weapons to these right wing whackjobs.
Did you recruit this guy spongie?
What did you promise him...MORE FOODSTAMPS?
Given the frequency with which you shoot yourself in the foot, spongie...should you be anywhere near a firearm?

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29-07.-2008, 12:37 PM

#2597

tonyzackery

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver BC

Posts: 531

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB

Typical...didn't think you had to cajones to fess up...anyway...

Well thanks for clearing up the moron vs troll question.

Moron.

Moronic enough to distinguish a probable card-carrying, hood-wearing, still in the closet KKK/militia member. The very kind of insecure, gun-toting, racist, at-the-ready-for-the-impending-race war chap that should be spouting his drivel at the Stormfront website and not a cycling forums website...Yep, that's how moronic I am. Thanks for outing me...

I'm done with you. With my permission, you may have the last word as you're the one who OBVIOUSLY needs it. After all, you don't feel safe on a bicycle unless you got your gatt...insecure, impotent, weakling of a so-called man...Regardless, I hope something occurs in your life such that you see the light...I have my doubts, however...Hasta la vista, baby...

29-07.-2008, 08:35 PM	#2598
CAMPYBOB Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 834	Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment? Did you recruit this guy spongie? No, but he is just another whackjob...much like you. He ended the lives of two people that did not deserve to die, yet were too liberal to defend themselves. Perhaps if they concerned themselves less with gay/women/illegal immigrant rights and more with the right to self-defense they would still be alive.

29-07.-2008, 08:52 PM

#2599

Matt888

Registered User

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 58

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe West

I'm a bit confused Jeff.

You can't take me seriously because I don't post anything related to cycling (this is a bit of a stretch but I'll hang with you for a few sentences)

Do a search on this forum for "Americano" and I do indeed believe you'll find some posts that (using your logic) will allow you to take me seriously. In addition, you search will answer your question about what kind of bicycle I ride.

Now that you can take me seriously... let's discuss Mr. Mills for a minute...

"Individual rights stop when they start interfering with other people's rights"

In a free market society, one could easily argue (as I am about to) that the act of simply existing "interferes with other people's rights".

How so?

Let's start with a fairly common economic presumption that "all things of value are scarce"... meaning; if an object is valuable to a society; it is available in limited quantities.

Some examples of valuable goods:

Food
Water (in some regions)
Gold
Land
Bicycles

In the act of consuming (using... taking off the market) a good, I make it unavalable to everyone else in my society. By my act of consumption, I have "interfered" with the rights of everyone else who may have wanted to consume that good in my society by using it for myself. Do you see where I'm headed?

In ANY society... human interactions are RIFE with people interfering on the rights of other people and such interactions are absolutely impossible to stop.

So... who decides what is right for the society and who should have their freedoms limited?

Is it a simple majority vote?
Is it determined by the strength of the participants?
Perhaps by the group who is fastest on their bicycles?

Who decides what freedoms should be limited?

Is it by a 2/3rds majority vote?
Is it by who has the most money?
Is it by the most educated of the masses?

Imagine the mess we are very quickly in... everyone is complaining that someone else is "interfering with their rights" in a way that is a negative impact to society... rules are passed (let's call them laws)... freedoms quickly taken away as the masses determine (by some means) that more and more rights are a negative impact to society. Soon... everyone's right to do anything is stripped away by the group who is granted the right to be the enforcer of what's good for society (let's call that rule Government).

Smoking is BAD for society... let's outlaw smoking!!!

Riding in cars without using your seatbelt is bad for society... let's mandate seatbelt laws!

Not using a helmet on a motorcycle is bad for society... let's mandate the use of a helmet!!

Guns are bad for society... outlaw guns!!!

One after one... the masses clamor for the elimination of personal rights to "benefit" society.

One by one... freedoms fall and people are no longer free to make their own choices.

Sound familiar?

Mr. Mills has it ALL wrong and his ideas are spectacularly short-sighted.

Any society that seeks to reduce the freedoms of "the few"for the benefit of the masses will soon find itself with a society that is anything BUT free.

How about a much simpler idea (from the great mind of Joe West, one of those hybrow thinker types)...

How about we start with the premise that:

Everyone.
Is.
Free.
To.
Do.
Whatever.
They.
Want.
To.
Do.

As long as it doesn't violate the following single rule:

1. You can't limit the freedoms of any other individual.

So... murder is out becasue you clearly limit the freedom of someone if you murder them.

Theft is out because you limit the freedom of someone to do what they want with their personal property if you steal it.

Rape is out since you clearly limit the freedom of someone while you are raping them.

Well... you get the picture.

Now that we have the "anti-anarchy" rule out of the way...

You are now free to do anything you want.

Smoke, drink, get high, run with scissors, stick your fingers in a light socket.

As long as you stick to the rule (we call it the personal property right rule and it is what makes free-markets exist) you are really free!

Listen closely to me.

Governments DO NOT grant Freedoms and governments DO NOT have the right to take them away.

The creator (whatever or whoever she/he may be) granted us to be free to do whatever we want to do and no entity has the power to take that freedom away from us.

Some of us certainly can give our freedoms away if we choose (such as voting for a helmet law).

Others have our freedoms stripped by our Governments (the "few" who control the masses)

Still others give away their freedoms and then demand that Governments take freedoms from others so that they can feel "Safe".

Does anyone really think that laws should be created to keep people from hurting themselves? For crying out loud... if you want to fry your brain on drugs; help yourself... the world needs McDonald's workers. If you want to split your skull on the pavement because you don't like helmets... help yourself!

No sir... Mr. Mills was not a very lucid thinker at all thinks I.

Let me re-write Mr. Mills concept in a form I find palatable:

The rights of an individual stop when they die.

I am incredibly happy to see that there are others on this forum who think like I do. I write what I do mostly for them... because I know they will read these words and understand just as I read their words and understand.

Those of you who read what I write and think to yourself "this gentlemen is absolutely mad"...

Go to the search function on this forum and type the word "Americano"
<grin>

Joe

You’re a bit confused? No shit! Your whole theory of everyone can do what they want unless they limit the freedoms of others directly correlates with Mr Mills line”Individual rights stop when they start interfering with other people's rights". It’s the exact same principle. Then you go on to say he's not a very lucid thinker and that Mr. Mills has it ALL wrong and his ideas are spectacularly short-sighted. Yet you agree with him.

Is this a discussion or are you trying to push your agenda? Even trying to raise funds in order to push your agenda it would seem from what I've read from some other posts. Are you on the campaign trail perhaps? This thread is massive and both sides have been arguing their point extensively over and over and over and over. And don't get me wrong, a lot of what you are saying is perfectly logical (if not a touch archaic), but some of it really doesn't make sense. Which is not to say i’m not interested in reading more, because your conviction is admirable, just a little misguided and it can be far too easy to argue such a problematic issue from behind an avitar?

You say with great emphasis that we should all be free to do what we want.

Then you come straight back with a golden rule. By instituting this rule you automatically make it not ok to do what you want.

I don't disagree with your rule; it's actually quite a good one. It's there to keep people safe from harming each other and this seems fair and just to most. In using this rule to justify harming someone who intends to harm you, you are arguing that two wrongs indeed make a right.

But it instantly limits the doing what you want part. So in turn makes the owning of a gun on your own terms impossible because there has to be conditions attached. Because you can't do what you want with it and because the very nature of a gun, when in the wrong hands has been designed to limit the freedoms of those as seen fit by the user of the gun. There is a huge grey area here you have created here.

The whole do what you want thing and the do not limit another individuals freedoms do not go hand in hand when it comes to gun ownership. It's a last man standing sort of ideal that is conducive to violence, history proves that, and every person that has ever died at the hand of another via a gun has been stripped of their individual freedom to live.

Straight forward 18th century logic is far less relevant these days.

You are simply fighting one side of an argument, that itself only outlines the much larger social issue. The need for guns as self defence from those who have guns, who in turn mean you harm. It's a valid point and people feel very strongly about defending themselves and those they care about, but enabling more people to have guns will never resolve the issue of crazy people with guns harming others, this is also a very logical way of looking at it. If you argue that because the problem is so far reaching that it's past the point of no return and the only answer is to arm socially responsible people in order to protect them from the irresponsible, you basically saying that the whole world has gone to shit and there is nothing we can do about it. Then we will most definitely be doing what we want, or should I say whatever we can in order just to survive, and there is a word for that. I certainly don't have that view, as the society I live in does not reflect this way of thinking. It's obviously different in America than it is here in Australia as it almost seems from the outside that you guys almost hunt each other for sport, such is the portrait of you through international media (whether this is fact or not doesn't detract from how it's seen from the outside), and this is a frightening view of America shared by many, and you are perpetuating this view with your argument, whether you like it or not.

In a push to progress as a society we should be far less concerned with fighting to uphold outdated laws and far more concerned with not only isolating the problems, but actually fixing them.

It’s certainly a strange debate to be having in a bike forum but this is clearly the world some of us live in.

There is also some disturbing racial undertones in some of the arguments presented here, particularly the use of hip hop slang and culture as way of isolating a few from the many, as well as the aggressive stance taken by both sides at delivering your points when referring to political beliefs and it really only detracts from the point that is trying to be made (can make for some amusing reading though). I'd much rather hear your thoughts on what you would have put in place when it come to legislating against violent behaviour and rehabilitating and re-educating those that are indeed deemed the socially irresponsible among us. These are the tough questions to answer. And it’s pretty clear where the line in the sand in this thread is and who stands on which side of it. But, to answer the op question, no I don't carry a gun when I ride; there is quite simply no need. I find it very difficult to imagine having such a need in fact.

Last edited by Matt888 : 29-07.-2008 at 09:00 PM.

29-07.-2008, 09:25 PM

#2600

Joe West

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 150

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Now THAT is funny... Good one Steve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

Act of God.They must have been really sinful or God wouldn't allow this to happen.
Churches are full of nutters, the last people who should be armed.

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30-07.-2008, 09:27 AM

#2601

stevebaby

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Craggy Island

Posts: 2,780

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB

Did you recruit this guy spongie?

No, but he is just another whackjob...much like you. He ended the lives of two people that did not deserve to die, yet were too liberal to defend themselves.

Perhaps if they concerned themselves less with gay/women/illegal immigrant rights and more with the right to self-defense they would still be alive.

perhaps if your conservative republican liberal hating buddy went and got a job and stopped sucking at the welfare teat he would not have become so angry that he used his LEGALLY acquired firearm to commit murder.
I hope your foodstamps don't get cut off.
Your lunatic friend obviously has more in common with you than me.

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02-08.-2008, 08:12 PM

#2602

Matt888

Registered User

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 58

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe West

Now THAT is funny... Good one Steve.

Didn't think so JOE!

02-08.-2008, 09:49 PM

#2603

Joe West

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 150

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

I do have a fairly sick sense of humor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt888

Didn't think so JOE!

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03-08.-2008, 12:37 AM

#2604

Matt888

Registered User

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 58

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe West

I do have a fairly sick sense of humor

Didn't think it would take long when prompted?

08-08.-2008, 03:55 PM

#2605

stevebaby

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Craggy Island

Posts: 2,780

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe West

I do have a fairly sick sense of humor

Behold the mind of a psychopath.

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08-08.-2008, 08:57 PM

#2606

jhuskey

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2003

Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA

Posts: 6,548

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

Behold the mind of a psychopath.

Did someone call me?

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08-08.-2008, 11:50 PM

#2607

Akadat

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: under downunder

Posts: 127

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt888

I'd much rather hear your thoughts on what you would have put in place when it come to legislating against violent behaviour and rehabilitating and re-educating those that are indeed deemed the socially irresponsible among us.

Legislation for and against violent behaviour has been around since history began. One day we are forced to have blood on our swords, the next day swords are prohibited.

Australian legislators prohibit self-defense with a gun, yet reserve the right to forcibly put a gun in our hands and order us to kill a deemed enemy.

Australian legislators want us to believe we lead the way in rehabilitating and re-educating those deemed the socially irresponsible. It really is not working very well. Rehabilitation and re-education comprises being released on bail over and over until prison time. The population must suffer the repeated deeds of the socially irresponsible as a cost of 'rehabilitation'.

While all this social experimentation is going on nothing really changes. The problems don't disappear, they morph.

10-08.-2008, 02:50 AM

#2608

stevebaby

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Craggy Island

Posts: 2,780

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akadat

Except that the crime rate falls...

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10-08.-2008, 06:34 AM

#2609

stevebaby

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Craggy Island

Posts: 2,780

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB

Talkin' out the side of your ###, er, I mean neck...Make it plain CAMPY...or can't you talk straight English???

You're a moron or a troll.

There.

Do you need that statement simplified even more for you?

"An armed society is a polite society?"

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10-08.-2008, 06:36 AM

#2610

stevebaby

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Craggy Island

Posts: 2,780

Re: How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB

Typical...didn't think you had to cajones to fess up...anyway...

Well thanks for clearing up the moron vs troll question.

Moron.

"An armed society is a polite society?"

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