How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?

Originally Posted by Jeff Vader

Joe,

It would be easier to take you seriously if you ever posted anything about cycling other than as it relates to guns. What type of recumbant do you ride?

All those big words in the majority opinion kind of scare and frighten me. I just can't get at what he is talking about. Who are the federalists anyway?

I was browsing through the internet looking for a good soil substitute for my tuberous sword when I stumbled upon this concept by John Stuart Mill. Have you ever heard of him? Now don't go googling him and looking up his wiki page so that you can say you know who he is. Turns out that, in addition to his well known love of ferns, he was one of these hybrow thinker types. Anyhow, he has this way out notion that individual rights stop when they start interfering with other people's rights. So, by this crazy logic, you could come to the conclusion that the epidemic of gun related murders in this country warrants restricting access to firearms. I am sure that the murdered people and their families do not think that the right to bear arms is limitless.

I could be wrong.

This world is sometimes scarry. I saw this guy sing a song one time where he said that his friends were vampires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XueX_O01CXU Pretty scarry. Are your bullets made out of silver. I hope so. Everybody is afraid of vampires.

Originally Posted by Jeff Vader

Joe,

It would be easier to take you seriously if you ever posted anything about cycling other than as it relates to guns. What type of recumbant do you ride?

All those big words in the majority opinion kind of scare and frighten me. I just can't get at what he is talking about. Who are the federalists anyway?

I was browsing through the internet looking for a good soil substitute for my tuberous sword when I stumbled upon this concept by John Stuart Mill. Have you ever heard of him? Now don't go googling him and looking up his wiki page so that you can say you know who he is. Turns out that, in addition to his well known love of ferns, he was one of these hybrow thinker types. Anyhow, he has this way out notion that individual rights stop when they start interfering with other people's rights. So, by this crazy logic, you could come to the conclusion that the epidemic of gun related murders in this country warrants restricting access to firearms. I am sure that the murdered people and their families do not think that the right to bear arms is limitless.

I could be wrong.

This world is sometimes scarry. I saw this guy sing a song one time where he said that his friends were vampires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XueX_O01CXU Pretty scarry. Are your bullets made out of silver. I hope so. Everybody is afraid of vampires.

Originally Posted by Joe West

I'm a bit confused Jeff.

You can't take me seriously because I don't post anything related to cycling (this is a bit of a stretch but I'll hang with you for a few sentences)

Do a search on this forum for "Americano" and I do indeed believe you'll find some posts that (using your logic) will allow you to take me seriously. In addition, you search will answer your question about what kind of bicycle I ride.

Now that you can take me seriously... let's discuss Mr. Mills for a minute...

"Individual rights stop when they start interfering with other people's rights"

In a free market society, one could easily argue (as I am about to) that the act of simply existing "interferes with other people's rights".

How so?

Let's start with a fairly common economic presumption that "all things of value are scarce"... meaning; if an object is valuable to a society; it is available in limited quantities.

Some examples of valuable goods:

Food
Water (in some regions)
Gold
Land
Bicycles

In the act of consuming (using... taking off the market) a good, I make it unavalable to everyone else in my society. By my act of consumption, I have "interfered" with the rights of everyone else who may have wanted to consume that good in my society by using it for myself. Do you see where I'm headed?

In ANY society... human interactions are RIFE with people interfering on the rights of other people and such interactions are absolutely impossible to stop.

So... who decides what is right for the society and who should have their freedoms limited?

Is it a simple majority vote?
Is it determined by the strength of the participants?
Perhaps by the group who is fastest on their bicycles?

Who decides what freedoms should be limited?

Is it by a 2/3rds majority vote?
Is it by who has the most money?
Is it by the most educated of the masses?

Imagine the mess we are very quickly in... everyone is complaining that someone else is "interfering with their rights" in a way that is a negative impact to society... rules are passed (let's call them laws)... freedoms quickly taken away as the masses determine (by some means) that more and more rights are a negative impact to society. Soon... everyone's right to do anything is stripped away by the group who is granted the right to be the enforcer of what's good for society (let's call that rule Government).

Smoking is BAD for society... let's outlaw smoking!!!

Riding in cars without using your seatbelt is bad for society... let's mandate seatbelt laws!

Not using a helmet on a motorcycle is bad for society... let's mandate the use of a helmet!!

Guns are bad for society... outlaw guns!!!

One after one... the masses clamor for the elimination of personal rights to "benefit" society.

One by one... freedoms fall and people are no longer free to make their own choices.

Sound familiar?

Mr. Mills has it ALL wrong and his ideas are spectacularly short-sighted.

Any society that seeks to reduce the freedoms of "the few"for the benefit of the masses will soon find itself with a society that is anything BUT free.

How about a much simpler idea (from the great mind of Joe West, one of those hybrow thinker types)...

How about we start with the premise that:

Everyone.
Is.
Free.
To.
Do.
Whatever.
They.
Want.
To.
Do.

As long as it doesn't violate the following single rule:

1. You can't limit the freedoms of any other individual.

So... murder is out becasue you clearly limit the freedom of someone if you murder them.

Theft is out because you limit the freedom of someone to do what they want with their personal property if you steal it.

Rape is out since you clearly limit the freedom of someone while you are raping them.

Well... you get the picture.

Now that we have the "anti-anarchy" rule out of the way...

You are now free to do anything you want.

Smoke, drink, get high, run with scissors, stick your fingers in a light socket.

As long as you stick to the rule (we call it the personal property right rule and it is what makes free-markets exist) you are really free!

Listen closely to me.

Governments DO NOT grant Freedoms and governments DO NOT have the right to take them away.

The creator (whatever or whoever she/he may be) granted us to be free to do whatever we want to do and no entity has the power to take that freedom away from us.

Some of us certainly can give our freedoms away if we choose (such as voting for a helmet law).

Others have our freedoms stripped by our Governments (the "few" who control the masses)

Still others give away their freedoms and then demand that Governments take freedoms from others so that they can feel "Safe".

Does anyone really think that laws should be created to keep people from hurting themselves? For crying out loud... if you want to fry your brain on drugs; help yourself... the world needs McDonald's workers. If you want to split your skull on the pavement because you don't like helmets... help yourself!

No sir... Mr. Mills was not a very lucid thinker at all thinks I.

Let me re-write Mr. Mills concept in a form I find palatable:

The rights of an individual stop when they die.

I am incredibly happy to see that there are others on this forum who think like I do. I write what I do mostly for them... because I know they will read these words and understand just as I read their words and understand.

Those of you who read what I write and think to yourself "this gentlemen is absolutely mad"...

Go to the search function on this forum and type the word "Americano"
<grin>

Joe

Originally Posted by Joe West

One thing that was pretty cool to see here was the large number of bicycles on the streets... back in Phoenix it is rare to see bicycles downtown but here in DC, they are all over the place.

Joe

Originally Posted by kdelong

Great! At least one other good thing, besides the Supreme Court Ruling, is happening in Washington! BTW- doesn't "W" ride? Anyone know what bike he rides?

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB

Most cabbies carry a pistol. Most carry one illegally. They work one of the most dangerous professions in our cities...and the robbery statistics back this up.

Originally Posted by Joe West

Hi All,

As luck would have it, I'm in Washington DC this week in a political science class for my MBA. I've only been able to discuss the Supreme Court ruling with the Taxi driver who took me to the hotel here in DC, but it was pretty clear that he hadn't given the ruling much thought (which I'm sure is understandable when you work 12 hours a day to make a living as a cab driver... not much free time to think about such luxury items as Supreme Court rulings).

Tomorrow my class meets with some senators but unfortunately, all are Republican and share similar views to mine when it comes to second amendment freedoms so I doubt there will be much lively debate on the topic.


Joe

Originally Posted by stevebaby

The unfortunate taxi driver was probably just being polite. No doubt he was bored to death.
Hey Joey...how about another 50 photos of the box your bike was in?
Scintillating stuff...... I haven't seen such a fascinating bike box in my whole life.....

Originally Posted by stevebaby

The unfortunate taxi driver was probably just being polite. No doubt he was bored to death.
Hey Joey...how about another 50 photos of the box your bike was in?
Scintillating stuff...... I haven't seen such a fascinating bike box in my whole life.....

Originally Posted by kdelong

Ever notice how when liberals can't make up anymore "facts" to bolster their position, they resort to cute little jabs and veiled insults?