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01-10.-2004, 11:12 AM
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#61 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: atlanta, GA
Posts: 653
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Then you either don't work or you need to get a life. |
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01-10.-2004, 12:49 PM
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#62 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,498
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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As a policeman friend of mine would say - this one doesn't quite pass the nose test. It's a bit too convenient. There are any number of people and organizations who stand to benefit from Tyler's demise. Arguably, the UCI itself might benefit. It's Pro Tour series is being launched to a somewhat tepid response, not to mention the fact that the ruling body will now profit directly from cycling activities. Some people in the UCI might have the idea that this series could draw larger crowds and more profit if another American wasn't winning the races. Okay, that's a bit paranoid, but it does illustrate how people other than competing cyclists might wish to see Tyler fail. I live near a small city with a college that has a nationally known basketball program. I saw how money corrupted people associated with what was supposed to be a purely amateur sport. It wasn't quite amateur - when that team won, it generated millions for the local economy. Thus, the corrupting influence. Pro cycling has to be far worse, because a lot more money is involved. Already, that promise of money has led many cyclists to thicken their blood to the point of cardiac arrest. Are we also naive enough to think that the officials and lab technicians are immune to the same corrupting influence? Tyler might be guilty, but there is plenty of motive for this to have been a manufactured event. The fact that he was the only cyclist identified out of hundreds tested doesn't make it smell any better. We, and in fact the entire cycling world, should keep in mind that a witch hunt will destroy professional cycling as quickly as doping. We, the fans, support pro cycling. If we don't enjoy it, whether it be from doping or from arbitrary treatment of the cyclists, we won't support it. |
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01-10.-2004, 02:59 PM
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#63 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 696
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Lot of conjecture here. KB, if you have been reading your revelations on doping exposures you will find that failures on testing of "A" samples are nearly always released. When an athlete is notified of a positive drug test result from the "A" sample they have a right have the "B" sample analysed or waived. The athlete has a right to be informed of the procedures of testing and can be present (or have a representative present) during the analysis of the "B" sample. You allude to a conspiracy about release of "A" sample results knowing the "B" sample was not fit for testing. Where is your source for this information? The lab would not have known the "B" sample was destroyed by refrigeration until after the request by TH to have his "B" sample tested. KB, you will also find that the identification of the donor of the samples for drug testing are unknown to the lab testers. The samples are coded. There is a restriction under IOC rules to release the name of an athlete who has failed an "A" test. But the IOC has an obligation under the rules to release the identity and results of the analysis to the following - 1. The athlete (who can request his "B" sample be analysed). 2. The head of the team (ie US Olympic team). 3. The international federation governing the sport (ie. UCI) 4. World Anti Doping Agency (WADA). The IOC did not "leak" the information to the UCI as you speculate. The IOC followed the rules applicable to every athlete. I suggest you read the IOC anti doping rules that applied to the Athens 2004 Olympics.
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VF "Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat" Last edited by VeloFlash : 01-10.-2004 at 03:06 PM. |
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01-10.-2004, 03:12 PM
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#64 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 277
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Great post. Firstly you cleared up a lot of questions I had about the testing and information dissemination process. And you further debunk many ridiculous conspiracy theories since the testers can not possibly know the identity of the donor of the sample. For those of you who were wondering why there are so few replies to this topic, its because there is a fairly robust discussion thread in the Bike Racing/Grand Tours forum. Come join us, everyone! Veloflash, your knowledge would be really welcomed over there. At the very least it would be great if you at least posted this response that thread - it sheds a lot of light on the testing process. |
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01-10.-2004, 03:26 PM
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#65 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 696
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Saucy, you have my permission to plagiarise me. But be gentle 
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VF "Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat" |
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01-10.-2004, 04:05 PM
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#66 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 514
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Is the function of the B test to confirm that the A test was done correctly? I am looking for the citation where I read a representative from Phonak statign that the reason Phonak came out with the story because they were getting calls from the press concerning it. I took this to indicate that the information had reached the public domain by irregular channels; however, I can't seem to find the original statement and perhaps I misread it. Thank you for your reply. I appreciate that there are procedures in place to prevent tester bias. I guess I have a natural curiousity about whether those procedures were adhered to. I've seen forensics labs drop the ball on that one in instances that were a hell of a lot more serious than a mere doping violation.
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Insanity has its price -- Please have exact change. |
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01-10.-2004, 05:40 PM
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#67 | ||
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 696
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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It allows the athlete or his/her representative to fully observe and note the procedures to ensure proper practices are followed. Also both "A" and "B" samples are tamper proof sealed, identified with a code and signed at collection from the athlete. The athlete can confirm the "B" sample seal is intact and that it is his/her sample. The athlete should then have no grounds as a defence relating to wrong samples or improper analysing procedures if the "B" test reproduces the results of the "A" test. Quote:
You have three organisations (WADA, UCI and US Olympic team management) plus an individual athlete, who would certainly be confiding in close associates, who would know the results. The premature leak to the media is more likely than not the more persons who are privvy and the higher the profile of the athlete. A case in point. BALCO, the Californian PED supplier to a number of top athletes, had an informant in WADA who was advising BALCO when WADA had become aware of new drugs and there was a test in place. So not all organisations are leak proof.
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VF "Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat" |
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01-10.-2004, 06:15 PM
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#68 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 514
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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So, do you consider it reasonable that Hamilton should be viewed by some as having failed the IOC test, given that there is no means of verifying the original result? Obviously it's the rule. I guess my question is whether it is fair and reasonable given the severity of the consequences?
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Insanity has its price -- Please have exact change. |
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01-10.-2004, 08:08 PM
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#69 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 696
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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"Some" are incorrect in their views. Hamilton still holds the TT Olympic gold medal as the anti doping rules in place for Athens 2004 gave an athlete the right to challenge the "A" sample test with a reproduction of the "B" sample test or concede his breach by waiving that right. Hamilton elected to have the "B" sample tested and the accredited laboratory could not reproduce the "A" sample analysis results. Therefore there was no infraction under the rules. The overall doubts about Hamilton arise because of the later Vuelta positive "A" & "B" tests for the same infraction occurring very soon after. These reflect badly on Hamilton as it would appear that if the IOC "B" sample had not been destroyed through freezing it would have more than likely produced a positive result consistent with the Vuelta positive results. If Hamilton had not entered the Vuelta to be tested there would be no linkage to the IOC "A" positive and "B" stuff up to throw doubt on Hamilton's sporting integrity. The IOC issue would have blown over very quickly.
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VF "Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat" |
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01-10.-2004, 10:20 PM
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#70 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 45
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Wow. Your originality is only surpassed by your deductive reasoning and logic. And that is not a good thing. |
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02-10.-2004, 12:31 AM
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#71 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 3,859
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Wow, and I thought we Italians were into conspiracy theories.  I would discount this particular theory as Tyler was actually one of the most liked riders in the peloton. He was well liked, stayed out of trouble (ok, until the Olympics), heroically rode with injuries (bringing back a bit of the epic sportsman thing that the sport harks back to) and did not win too much.IMHO, it sounds like he just screwed up - if I am not mistaken, he was not even supposed to race the Vuelta, so was probably not expecting to be tested in that period...
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De Rosa Planet Campagnolo Per Sempre! PAOLO BETTINI CAMPIONE DEL MONDO x 2! 
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02-10.-2004, 11:11 AM
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#72 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 222
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
In my opinion its pretty damn obvious whats happened. Theres a new test out which wasnt meant to be ready for the vuelta. Hamilton fails the subsequent drug test because he didnt see it coming. If you look around it has been written everywhere that team doctors find ways to get an athlete to test negative. There was finally a test that no one was prepared for. You set the trap, you catch the rat. If he is doping may he never be allowed to ride again.
You can tart it up and make excuses all you like but he did test positive. |
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02-10.-2004, 12:11 PM
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#73 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,498
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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Like I said, that's a bit to the left of paranoid, but I tossed out something outrageous to make a point - a doping scandal can affect more than just a single cyclist. Maybe it's my American background, we tend to question authority unless we have a good reason not to. Perhaps Tyler wasn't expecting to race in the Vuelta, but for sure he was expecting to race (and be tested) in the Olympics, so I don't think he was caught by surprise. The UCI may be lax on doping, but the IOC is not. The transfusion test was announced at the start of the year, so it was not a surprise test. The IOC did quietly contact the UCI, I will have to track down the news article that quoted the IOC official - 'we don't discuss the nature of such communications', but he did acknowledge that the communications took place. I have a hard time thinking that a person who can ride the TDF with a broken collarbone, and even take a stage win, would do something like this. Perhaps he did, and my own naivete is my undoing. It's just a shame to see a cyclist who otherwise exemplified strong character going down like this, with no real scrutiny being applied to the reasons, the circumstances, or the soundness of the test. |
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03-10.-2004, 10:36 AM
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#74 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: atlanta, GA
Posts: 653
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
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yea yea yea ....ya dada ...if you want to come on here to show off what a big d*** or a bif mouth you have then go ahead. and get a f****** grip. Everyoone of your post here, judging from you reaction, we have quite a fair amount of testosterone. |
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03-10.-2004, 03:15 PM
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#75 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Re: Any words on Tyler's test results?
I don't have numbers to back this up, but I've heard that false positives are not all that unlikely in tests that are supposedly very accurate. So I still would have had some doubt if both Vuelta tests turned up positive, and Tyler had not failed any other tests. All it would take is to somehow mix a drip of someone else's blood off a latex glove into each sample. This possibility is very remote, but could happen. There are other reasons for false positives though.
Anyway, the layperson might question it if it were the only positive result Tyler had ever had. But he did have another positive, and that was at the Olympics. This was a completely different syringe, different testers, different location, different date. The positive result is enough to remove doubt in my mind about the other 2 positives at the Vuelta. I don't need a 2nd positive at the Olympics to confirm doping at the Vuelta. The evidence is there. Now, this thread would take an entirely different tone if Tyler had tested negative on each of these tests--the Olympics and the Vuelta--and the question were posed, "Is Tyler doping?" Then we would be talking about how his horsepower was suspiciously higher than normal on those 2 TT days at the Olympics and then again at the Vuelta. I would probably be inclined to say he wasn't because the tests came out negative. But there would be a lot of argument if the horsepower results were made clear. This is not a problem of no evidence. Clearly the evidence is there. The fact that he is a nice guy and doesn't seem like he would do such a thing is probably what is giving a few people pause here. By the same reasoning that I reject claims that someone is doping when the tests don't indicate doping, I reject claims that someone is not doping when the tests show that he is. To refuse to believe is more of an emotional argument than a factual one. |
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