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29-11.-2004, 11:55 PM
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#556 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,548
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
I am hearing rumors that Phonak will drop Hamilton and Perez as a gesture of good faith to the UCI in order to get permission to join the new cycling league.
Anyone else have info on this?
__________________
Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike. |
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30-11.-2004, 09:26 AM
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#557 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 334
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
While I do not agree with doping in any way shape or form, I also feel sorry for Tyler Hamilton, mainly that he saw the need to take or do something illegal in order to compete on equal terms with the others. The pressure of the almighty dollar has a lot to do with how sports people today conduct their lives. I had hoped he was the new shinning light of cycling, to get out there and give it to 'em all, but allas its was not to be. I sincerely hope he can reinvent his career and show us what he's really made of. I look forward to the day hopefully in the not too distant future when we see him winning the one day classics, as he did earlier this year. It is of course unfortunate we cannot turn back the clock, as I have said in a previous forum this sort of thing has been going on for a lot more years than I have walked the planet. The only difference is now we have authorities to police drug abuse amongst the "SPORTS PARTICIPANTS" (the previous words highlighted) because "Real Sports Men and Women" uphold the honour of doing it clean because that's the way nature, our creator, whoever intended us to be. In closing may I also add that there has never been a human body put on earth that has ever been deficient of drugs. (think about it) Turn the Wheels with fury. Brian Cotgrove. |
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30-11.-2004, 10:33 AM
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#558 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Arizona (USA)
Posts: 1,141
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
When it's all over it may well be determined that Hamilton is guilty of that for which he is currently under suspension. But... it's not over yet. Hamilton hasn't officially presented his side and what little he has offered is interesting, to say the least.
Perhaps those of us interested in the truth should keep that in mind. |
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30-11.-2004, 01:06 PM
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#559 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 217
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Beastt:
I’ve read all of the posts to this thread since it was started, including all of your posts. I wholeheartedly agree with your compelling and well-stated argument that: (a) Hamilton hasn’t had his day in court (b) Prudence and respect for fair play would suggest that we all reserve final judgment until Hamilton has presented his side of the story (c) Only when all the facts are on the table will any of us be in a position to make an informed judgment about his guilt or innocence. I’m in solid agreement with you on all these points. I think it’s safe to say that anyone reading this thread understands your opinion about forming final conclusions at this point of the process. You have stated that position so many times and in so many slightly different ways, that no one could have any doubt about your position on that topic. At this point, repeating that position yet again doesn’t contribute anything to the discussion that hasn’t been made abundantly clear already. Even to someone who strongly agrees with your argument (me), it comes across as a bit heavy-handed and tiresome, to continue “reprimanding” fellow participants when they make any statement that sounds like a final conclusion. In general, when someone states an opinion far beyond the number of times required for everyone to understand their point, continued repetition doesn’t come across as an attempt to convey an idea; it comes across as little more than a reprimand. It would be good to remember that this is a thread on a message board that exists for no other purpose than to exchange ideas about a topic for which we don’t yet have all the facts. Speculating about things we don’t yet know is all part of the fun. Like it or not, some participants will take it one step further and jump to conclusions before you think they should. Remember they have every right to post their premature conclusions here and to be as ridiculously dogmatic about it as they want. This is encompassed by the principle of free speech. Of course I understand that principle applies to your posts as well. You’re entitled to post anything you want, including posting the same admonition over and over again. I just don’t believe it wins people over to your ideas to do this beyond the number of times necessary to get your point across. Based on some of the angry responses you’ve received, I would suggest that the repetitive and disapproving tone of your posts has overshadowed the valid points you’ve made, and turned away some people who might otherwise have agreed with you. I say let anyone who wants to make a premature conclusion on this message board do so openly and freely, and without repeated reprimands from those of us who disagree and have clearly logged our disagreement on the record. If Tyler manages to present a compelling defense of his innocence, then I’ll join you in celebrating how wrong they were to rush to judgment! Quote:
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30-11.-2004, 01:55 PM
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#560 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 334
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
Fbircher, your a gem, you've hit the nail directly on the head, good one? Now that's what I was going to say you saved me the trouble!  All jokes aside, we know from whence Beastt cometh, good luck to him too, he writes (sounds) like a very well read sort of cove? Almost a lawyer? Personally, as I said earlier today I sincerely hope Tyler is innocent of what he has been accused, I like his style of aggression on the bike, but I also, like his off bike demeanor too, he's like the young bloke from down the road who used to deliver the daily papers, but has made it to the top of his chosen sport? |
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30-11.-2004, 04:19 PM
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#561 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Arizona (USA)
Posts: 1,141
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
Point well taken. I do wish people could put themselves in a position of having been wrongly accused of a fairly serious infraction and try to offer others the same chance to answer that they would expect. But you're right - both you and Mr. Cotgrove - in saying that I've probably deafened people to the request for fairness at this point. Many are just too thirsty for blood to spend any time weighing the case. |
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30-11.-2004, 08:51 PM
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#562 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 334
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
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Yes Beastt, your absolutely correct again your comment about too many people ready for blood is of course correct, but as I also eluded to previously, none of us are perfect, just watch the other guys at the football match. It is the way of the human race, some are flawed more so than others, and like the proverbial dogs, will bay for the kill being of the same mentality. This is one of the reasons why some country's around the world moved away from the death penalty, capital punishment, whatever term is used for killing someone, for a crime against humanity. For example look at the Asian country's, Indonesia still has a death penalty for trafficing in drugs. One only need to be in possession of what some would consider a couple of days supply of "Marijuana" and it's off with his or her head, so as to speak. They do not discriminate between male or female there if you're caught and found guilty you face the same penalty. I have often wondered, let us say to be absolutely ridiculous.  Hypothetically, doping is looked upon as crime against humanity, for the valid reason that it influences many young people around the world. These same young people who possibly look up to those upon the worlds sports stage, TDF., Olympics, World Championships and should in a perfect world be above reproach. If capital punishment was introduced for such infringements classified as crimes against humanity, "Doping", in whatever sport you name, do you honestly think it would be a sufficient deterent to clean up or eliminate doping once and for all in sport all around the world? I wait for the "ship to hit the sand" on this one, as I have my doubts about it's value! What say any of you, TBC |
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01-12.-2004, 09:40 AM
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#563 |
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,622
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
The Hamilton case is not decided, as my good friend Beastt says.
Hamilton has not had his day in court and we have not heard his defence. Most of the opinions expressed here, are just that - opinions. In legal terms, Hamilton is innocent until proven guilty. But this brings me to the core of the issue of drug abuse within cycling. If, after due process, an athlete is found guilty of cheating (doping), the severest reprimand ought to be applied by the UCI. Let's hypothesise for a moment - let's say Hamilton is found guilty. What value has his claims of innocence that we're hearing now ? To my mind, if he is innocent but is found guilty, then we have a grave miscarriage. If he is found to be guilty - while all the time pleading his innocence - then he is lying and this should compound any sentance to be handed down as punishment. For me, the sport has had too many cases of doping. Millar denied he was ever up to anything. Hamilton denies it now. To be falsely accused is a terrible crime. To be rightly accused and to be found guilty is what due process is all about. But if that due process is interrupted by constant claims of innocence, and that innocence is proven to be in fact guilt, then the punishment ought to be commensurate and to include punishment for the false claims of innocence. |
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01-12.-2004, 10:24 AM
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#564 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 334
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
Well said Limerickman, I'm sure that most respondents to this ongoing saga would be open minded enough to give him the benifit of the doubt and as you say until it is proven conclusively that he has cheated let us all keep an open mind. I can however relate a tale told to me at a recent race meeting here, a cycling aquaintance stated that he worked in and amongst the stars of the peleton as a mechanic, I have no reason to doubt him as I know he did just that (no names, no pack drill) The trick to not bering caught out when taking something was to have the very bad day or days, as well as the good ones too. On the bad days where every thing goes wrong, missed breaks just sitting in on a free ride to the finish line, constant stops by the wayside to evacuate, turn up up late at sign on complianing of gut pains or feeling off etc., This is the sort of things that normal everyday people do, I'm sure you've encountered them at a work situations, I have, they bludge the day on an easy job, when there's hard stuff to be done. However when a cream job appears on the horizon all is back to normal the malady forgotten and there they are champing at the bit to be selected for the good one, putting in a blinder or sterling effort to claim the prize and the boss's endorsment to boot? Why then, should this not occur in our beloved sport, after all most of the participants of the sport are only human like the rest of us, with one very important exception. They are on a world stage getting paid in most or a lot of cases, good money to do what they originally chose and love to do anyway. The "Festina" affair also saw a few retirements from the peleton too, a case I think, of either go by your own volition or get the heavy handed push and the disgrace associated with the actions. Maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick too? Who knows where this will all end up?TBC |
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01-12.-2004, 11:55 AM
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#565 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 277
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
While you all debate "innocence until proven guilty" (a concept we are all familiar with by the way), nobody here has bothered to report thatTyler has been sacked by Phonak .
I am a little tired of this discussion of due process (which Tyler will receive), a discussion that belongs in the soapbox and pertains to serious issues like guantanamo bay etc. not trivial doping matters. I come to this thread to hear about and discuss developments in the tyler hamilton story, not re-hash the same debate ad nauseum. So...any opinions on this latest news? |
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01-12.-2004, 01:11 PM
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#566 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,548
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
Actually ,not to be a wise guy, but I did mention it a couple of days ago but no one responded. You can look back at my post. As I said Phonak dropped him and Perez to gain credibility with the UCI. At least this is the rumor I am hearing from my Swiss connection.
__________________
Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike. |
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01-12.-2004, 01:33 PM
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#567 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 277
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
Again, this is another blow for TH. Its all about perception and even though we know that Phonak had to make some concessions, it still looks bad to be sacked by your team. If Phonak gets accepted into the pro tour after dumping TH and SP, well I think it is complete and utter crap!! If UCI believes that TH and SP are guilty, how can they deduce that team management with 2 riders involved in blood doping (and another rider for EPO) did not know what was going on? The team doctor at least would have to be involved. Apparently UCI has had their eye on Phonak for a while now. If Phonak is suddenly accepted simply because they dump their baggage, it is completely disingenous. If TH and SP are guilty, then Phonak should be punished. I think harsh punishments need to be dealt to the teams if the sport is sincere in managing the doping problem. The teams should bear some responsibility as well. |
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01-12.-2004, 01:54 PM
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#568 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,548
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
I have a Swiss friend close to cycling and that is exactly what he thinks is going to happen. I am not sure if the doctors that Phonak hired are still trying to discredit the new tests. Should be interesting and I hope not devastating for the cycling world.
__________________
Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike. |
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01-12.-2004, 09:46 PM
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#569 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 514
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
Quote:
I think that the UCI statement was pretty clear that no one can figure this mess out. Alessandro Celli, Phonak's lawyer, indicated that a provisional report from their experts did not enable them to reach significant conclusions, two of these experts considering that the Lausanne and Athens laboratory tests were invalid, a third having detected certain errors which, however, did not cast doubt upon their reliability, and two others having found nothing abnormal in these tests. I find it quite incredible that an entire team has been destroyed over a test that a battery of propeller heads can't interpret. Not exactly the "CSI effect" is it? The entire matter is just repulsive.
__________________
Insanity has its price -- Please have exact change. |
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01-12.-2004, 10:22 PM
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#570 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 334
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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***
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G'day jhuskey, If you thought getting news was bad in the USA you should experience what we have to put up with here in OZ. I know we're at the bottom of the world, well almost, but if things are not pertaining to Cricket, Rugby League, Rugby Union, Swimming, Janah's Knee or the Thorpedo, then forget it completely. The only time cycling hits the news is when some scribe wants to put the boot in, that happened just prior to the Olympics when the "Ship Hit The Sand" at the "Australian Institute of Sport" all to do with selection of the team and the "Rearing of the Ugly Head of Drugs". It took centre stage for a week or two but has since died a natural death, with the big haul of medals our cyclists brought home, thank goodness for that? The only good news we have just received is that the whole of the "TDF" will be televised live in 2005 on our ethnic broadcaster SBS (Special Broadcasting Services), There will be a lot of sleepy people at work for a couple of weeks as it will ahve to go to air from late night till early morning. The only sad part as far a I'm concerned is, I will not be in OZ to see it, but travelling back to the old country visiting relatives, happy to see the rellies but sad to miss out on "Le Tour" bummer? I agree that Phonak should get a "Kick up the Date" for their part in the whole affair, pleading ignorance of any involvment is no excuse, Bull Sh*t. UCI should show some real leadership here but the question is, will it, or will they just do lip service as usual to the problem, I have my doubts? I saw a story on TV just a couple of days ago where a team doctor (football round ball game, my second love) has been sentenced to 22 months in the dungeon for his part in administering EPO to the players of the team. Whether it was Spanish or Italian football, I don't remember but he's got what all those who get involved should get, maybe he'll get only bread and water? Where's the cheese?  Does that do anything for anyone out there!  If not, don't give me a hard time or I'll rip yer bloody arms awf? TBC |
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