Page 27 - **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

19-10.-2004, 06:35 AM

#391

antoineg

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

When you decide that there is more than one kind of guilt in a case such as this, you're offering contortions of the facts. Either he doped to cheat or he didn't. That's all there is to it and suggesting that there are other forms of guilt or other kinds of guilt is an attempt to avoid the obvious.

You're agonizing. You are absolutely agonizing. It was you who denied the authority of the UCI/WADA to declare guilt. So what do you call their finding that that Tyler committed an anti-doping rule violation?

The WADA code doesn't use the term "guilt," specifically I think to prevent these kinds of arguments from happening. So I'm done with the topic of guilt. I'll just repeat: Tyler has been found to have committed an anti-doping rule violation. Call it whatever you want in addition to that.

19-10.-2004, 06:37 AM

#392

Beastt

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

You completely missed his point. It's obvious to me that you intentionally misunderstand things in order to muddy the waters. But in case you didn't catch it, he quoted you saying:His response was

o you understand now Beastt?

I understand the Hamilton situation. I understand due process. I understand the logic behind a system that guarantees due process. I don't understand people who use the term "guilty" prior to the completion of due process. I don't understand how one can suggest that it is improper to support the logistical correctness of due process or how one would arrive at the idea that anyone offering such support should relax and await a decision while the accused is being referred to as "guilty" before due process has been fulfilled.

"Guilty" means he did it - he doped. Yet the primary function of the appeals process is to allow him to offer reason as to why he should not be considered guilty. If the governing body has already determined him to be guilty, then his opportunity to answer the accusations is a farce. He's already been determined to be guilty, so due process has not been, and cannot be provided.

19-10.-2004, 06:39 AM

#393

antoineg

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

VeloFlash's post had nothing to do with guilt. It had everything to do with your hypocritical stance on the issue of relaxing and waiting and seeing what the end result of the Hamilton issue is.

You know this, you just don't want to admit that you know it. You want to continue to sidetrack everything.

19-10.-2004, 06:45 AM

#394

Joe WW

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSky

This has nothing to do with Lance Armstrong specifically. This just casts the entire peloton in more suspicion.

Tyler, say it ain't so.

Just an FYI - Check Hamilton's website for a letter posted by him on 10/11. Nothing new, but it is interesting reading.

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19-10.-2004, 06:51 AM

#395

Beastt

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

You're agonizing. You are absolutely agonizing. It was you who denied the authority of the UCI/WADA to declare guilt.

Correct. They are not in charge of what Tyler did or didn't do. They are only supposed to be the ones who determine whether he did or didn't do what is suggested by the tests. They can't do this if they don't have all of the facts and until Tyler has had opportunity to respond, all of the facts are not in. If they are already stating that he is in violation of an anti-doping rule, then they're saying he doped. Whether or not he doped has not yet been established. That's what the appeals process is for - to give him opportunity to state his case, offer another side which would explain his innocence, if indeed there is any side which would suggest innocence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

So what do you call their finding that that Tyler committed an anti-doping rule violation?

I call it improper and a violation of due process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

The WADA code doesn't use the term "guilt," specifically I think to prevent these kinds of arguments from happening. So I'm done with the topic of guilt. I'll just repeat: Tyler has been found to have committed an anti-doping rule violation. Call it whatever you want in addition to that.

I believe it was on this very thread that it was posted that the UCI had determined him to be guilty by suspending him. My metaphorical response to that is that the suspension is similar to one under suspicion of a criminal act being jailed but still being considered innocent until proven otherwise.

If the UCI has proclaimed that he has violated an anti-doping rule, then they are saying he is guilty - that he did indeed, without a doubt, utilize blood doping in violation of their rules. That means the appeals process is a fraud.

Perhaps you've failed to consider the possibility that I find you just a little agonizing. The simplicity of this situation is painfully obvious. It's amazing that anyone can continue to state that because the UCI has prematurely concluded that he has committed a violation of an anti-doping rule, that he absolutely and without a doubt has. This is why we don't have kings and dictators. The UCI is acting as the only and final word yet provides an avenue for appeal? When the same entity acts as prosecutor, judge and jury, what chance has one at an appeals hearing even if one is innocent?

19-10.-2004, 06:52 AM	#396
VeloFlash Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 696	Re: ** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? * Beastt, let us draw a real world comparison for you to simplify that the application of sanctions, penalties, damages etc, do not follow the criminal due process procedure, as you apparently claim it should. Beastt files his income tax return and pays the taxes due. The IRS through computer verification by cross checking finds that Beastt has significantly understated his income. The IRS sends Beastt an amended assessment and charges Beastt tax on the understated amount, a punitive penalty and interest. The IRS requests payment within 30 days but advises an appeal can be lodged against the amended assessment within 60 days. (I do not know whether this IRS procedure above is correct, I am only transplanting the Australian procedure) What you are advocating is that in all civil procedures criminal due process should be followed and Beastt should have been advised to be under suspicion, the IRS evidence be presented to be argued at a hearing and the decision of that hearing determines Beastt's liability. __________________ VF "Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

19-10.-2004, 06:54 AM

#397

antoineg

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

I believe if you'll check, this started when you stated that he was "guilty" - another form of the word, "guilt".

You know what Beastt? I did check. You're the one that started this topic of guilt. I had not once used the word "guilt" or "guilty" on this thread (or any other Hamilton thread) before you started this sidetrack.

Three other posters: Virenque, Sportzgurl, and gntlmn -- all used words to the effect of "He is guilty" or "It looks like he is guilty."

Not me.

You were dissembling again as usual. Your credibility is just about shot.

19-10.-2004, 06:58 AM

#398

antoineg

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

The simplicity of this situation is painfully obvious. It's amazing that anyone can continue to state that because the UCI has prematurely concluded that he has committed a violation of an anti-doping rule, that he absolutely and without a doubt has.

Who has suggested this? Who? Oh, right -- your straw man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

The UCI is acting as the only and final word yet provides an avenue for appeal? When the same entity acts as prosecutor, judge and jury, what chance has one at an appeals hearing even if one is innocent?

You may consider the "B" sample testing as the first step in your appeal process. Many athletes have gotten off -- most without any publicity whatsoever -- when their "B" samples did not confirm their "A" samples. Tyler, unfortunately for him, is a little further along in his appeals process. LOL.

19-10.-2004, 07:00 AM

#399

Beastt

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeloFlash

Beastt, let us draw a real world comparison for you to simplify that the application of sanctions, penalties, damages etc, do not follow the criminal due process procedure, as you apparently claim it should.

Beastt files his income tax return and pays the taxes due.

The IRS through computer verification by cross checking finds that Beastt has significantly understated his income.

The IRS sends Beastt an amended assessment and charges Beastt tax on the understated amount, a punitive penalty and interest.

The IRS requests payment within 30 days but advises an appeal can be lodged against the amended assessment within 60 days.

(I do not know whether this IRS procedure above is correct, I am only transplanting the Australian procedure)

What you are advocating is that in all civil procedures criminal due process should be followed and Beastt should have been advised to be under suspicion, the IRS evidence be presented to be argued at a hearing and the decision of that hearing determines Beastt's liability.

In any procedure involving a suggestion of wrong doing, logistical due process should be followed. No one should be declared guilty of wrong doing until after they have been provided with reasonable opportunity to know what they have done and what rule/law/regulation they have violated and then be offered opportunity to present their reasons as to why they should not be found guilty. You can't state reasons as to why you should not be found guilty if you've already been found guilty.

19-10.-2004, 07:02 AM

#400

Beastt

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

First you state that I started the topic of guilt. Then you state that Virenque, Sportzgurl and gntlmn used the word "guilty". Which means I didn't start it, I was responding to it. Then you jumped in.

19-10.-2004, 07:12 AM

#401

Beastt

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

Who has suggested this? Who? Oh, that's right - your straw man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

Tyler has been found to have committed an anti-doping rule violation.

You did. See quote

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoineg

The "B" sample is only a secondary test. It's purpose is to rule out errors in the testing of the "A" sample. It is not part of the appeal. The appeal is the testimony of the accused along with whatever evidence they wish to present on their behalf. An additional sample tested by an independent testing facility which contradicted the "A" and "B" sample might be part of the appeal, but the "B" sample in this case is not. The appeals process, to the best of my knowledge, has not started.

Two cameras, both with film showing you bent over a body with a bloody knife in your hand doesn't amount to an opportunity to answer the charge of murder.

19-10.-2004, 07:30 AM

#402

antoineg

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

Blah blah blah

Stop misquoting me and taking things out of context. You are mixing up two notions: the notion that he has been declared to have committed an anti-doping rule violation, and the notion that he "without a doubt" has ACTUALLY done the crime.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder: are you dumb or are you devious? I have assumed all along that you are just devious. But maybe not.

19-10.-2004, 07:40 AM

#403

VeloFlash

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

You start with the words "wrong doing" then substitute "guilty."

You must be starting out on a mission to change all the civil processes to follow the criminal due process. Everyone, except yourself, appears to be satisfied with the current situation.

Actually, Beastt, the UCI process does not hold the rider "guilty" (as you put it) on finding him in violation of the anti doping rules. The UCI suspends or disqualifies the rider from international competition until sanctions are determined by the Hearing or, if the rider appeals, the decision of the Court of Arbitration in Sport.

The sanctions will determine the period of ineligibility for the rider to compete in UCI affiliated events. That is the "sentence" arising from the "verdict" not the immediate suspension from competition.

It is appropriate for the UCI to disqualify a rider immediately from competition upon being informed of the laboratory analysis. If it were to maintain silence and allow the rider to compete right up until the hearing then just imagine the retrospective effect on results (including his team) in deleting the rider from the GC.

You would also have a lot of unhappy riders within the peloton when they find out a rider knew his GC would not eventually count. Road racing is chess on wheels requiring a lot of ongoing tactical and strategic thought to assess attacks and cover moves all within the parameters of GC standing.

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"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

19-10.-2004, 07:56 AM

#404

antoineg

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Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beastt

Perhaps you (again) misunderstood. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. You initially stated that it was me who started this whole thing by calling Tyler guilty.

Between the two of us, you were the first to bring it up. In fact, you were the first one who brought up any sort of philosophical discussion on guilt in this thread. Previous posters had used the word, but had not commented extensively on the abstractness of the word "guilt" until you did.

Are you dumb or are you devious?

19-10.-2004, 09:30 AM

#405

hombredesubaru

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Posts: 997

Re: **** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeloFlash

The funds to set up organisations like WADA and USADA, the apparent funders into anti doping research, are provided by governments not commercial interests.

Can you demonstrate this to be the case?

"I am at a loss to know where there could be a commercial benefit to any organisation out of researching and producing an anti dope test. So where does that lead your ghost money trail?"

The obvious answer is that if they own the test or patent it then every freekin time it is used in every GD race, THEY get the proceeds. Especially if ther is only ONE GD lab doping the test. IT IS A MONOPOLY. CAN YOU READ?
Have you not read about Australia curtaining their drug testing due to costs. This is high tech stuff and they are leasing it out to the highest bidder. This in plainly obvious.

"Scientists are doing the research obviously because they have an interest and are being remunerated through the indirect government funding."

Because, perhaps, they cant get any real research grants doing life saving research on real diseases. No these guys are zealots on a mission, and that worries me.

Can you quote a precedent that exists where an anti doping test of any sports federation used to sanction a competitor has found to be flawed through dodgy scientific research?

The lack of precedent is no reason not pursue this case. In part it is because the regulatory agencies hold all the cards. I think for example one such obvious doper such as Virenque got to participate in the TdF because of some technicality in 1999 because he had not been given adequte warning. Jean Marie LeDouche caved in out of FEAR of being sued, and the rest is history.

"I am unaware of such a precedent or wrongfully sanctioned athletes who have gained riches from litigation."

I never suggested any athlete is trying to get rich by suing, so I have no idea where this coming from.

Best

Hombredesubaru, are you not attempting to build a straw man?

no straw man here!!!

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