What would it take to convince you Armstrong is clean?

Miguel_garcia83

what the fuck???
when did arsmtrong win his first mountain stage? or his first time trial? or his first 2.HC race? or his first podium on a 3 week race? or whatever

limerickman

Samual Abt's "Pedalling for Glory 1996" book : Page 61 : "Rominger (35) is over
for the Tour du Pont a 1,225 mile Tour.
TR is leader of Mapei-GB and is over here to race but to also look at some real estate and for his wife to get some shopping in as well"
For the 1996 TDF, I think Indurain is favourite.
I am impressed by Berzin and then Jalabert, I think he can win the TDF.
Zulle and Riis will also be there (page 63)"
The Tour du Pont included Chann McRae (1992 US Road Race Champion) and
Lance Armstrong and the Italian team Amore e Vita.

I have copied this because I think it gives a good idea of the strength of the field in comparison to a Paris-Nice.

The TDF was after the Tour Du Pont quote "Rominger wasn't riding the TduP
for overall victory - even though he finished 3rd on GC. TR was behind in his condition because of a hard cycle of races in Spain and two weeks off the bike with bronchitis".
TR quote "this is simply a race to get my legs going again - the TDF is my
main objective and with my illness, I don't need to be trying tougher races(my words : tougher than TduP) like the Dauphine now"

limerickman

I'm no doctor but it would be fair to say that 1996, whilst competing in both stage races and one day races, that cancer could have prevented LA doing well.

Although, in saying that, surely the Motorola medical people would have noticed problems with his health in 1996 ???? (maybe not ?? I don't know)
After all, before doing a TDF, all riders have to pass medicals.

meehs

Hmph! You know? That's a very good point.

Perro Loco

probably not. unless a chest x-ray was done. People can tolerate a fairly large tumor burden before "symptoms" depending on the doubling time of the cancer. If the cancer is slow growing you adapt to some degree with the symptoms until you look back retropsectively- " gosh I sure had more energy 6 months ago" Even testiclular cancers very a lot in their growth characteristics- some tumors being mixed with fast and slow componets. An X-ray at the time, TDF, 96 might have shown multiple small nodules- not the large nodules seen by October. A physical exam, EKG and blood tests probably wouldn't have turned up much, unless specific tests where run wich are not part of routine blood chemistries. Symptoms? fatigue, not being able to perform up to expectations, cough- unfortunately a lot of riders get run down during the season. Given the burden of disease he presented with in fall of 96- he either had symptoms he was ignoring for a wwhile or it was rapidly growing or a combo of both.
On the other front I agree TDP was no Paris Nice, but Armstrong did very well in Paris Nice in 96 2nd to Jalabert, even came close to Boardman in the time trial finishing only 24 seconds for 19 Km.

limerickman

I'm typing here while I read :
"November 1996 - seven weeks ago LA was diagnosed with cancer in his testicles, lungs and brain.
He is about to set of for Indiana University Hospital to recieve four hours of chemo for a week.
I'm fine he says - all things considered.Talks about issues."
Quote " cars money houses mean nothing now - everydays is a gift."
"Despite the legions on his head (from chemo) - LA was still holding 170 lb weight."

The weekend before he competed with Eddy Merckx as his partner in 26 mile
Tour of Gruene in Texas (my words - GO ON THE CANNIBAL !!!).
quote "Eddy Merckx is such a filip to people. He was over to the hospital to visit me and Dr Einhorn who knew nothing about EM came to me and asked
me "who is that man ?"
I said why ?
Dr Einhorn looked me in the eye said "I have met a lot of people - and I get
a strange sensation from that man - it's like an energy force - I have never
experienced that before and I am a doctor who meets thousands of people.

I explained to him who Eddy Merckx was, his career and the greatness of the man.
Dr Einhorn then said "Lance can you do me a favour - would he (EM) be prepared to go to the ward to meet other people, because whatever force he radiates, i would like that presence to be in the ward ?
I said I would ask Eddy and he immediately agreed.

Eddy posed for photos with people - he signed messages and spoke about cycling and his opponents and his team mates such as Tom Simpson who he rode with at Peugeot in 1967 (my words - and was the only one who bothered to go to Toms funeral in Nottingham).
Edy insisted on coming back to that ward and meeting those people, every time he's been over.
Eddy was especially interested in speaking with those who were very sick and he always, always told them that they must fight tooth and nail
These visits helped everyone in that ward and Dr Einhorn feels that it's Eddy's force of nature that gives those people a boost.
With EM in my corner, how can I lose ? "

Dermo

There is opinion and there is just sheer malevolence and spite. And the rubbish that this man comes out with is incredible.

We now are witnessing the shift in the argument after it was pointed out that Indurains improvement was even better. Nothing will shift with this lad, no fact will shift his viewpoint. In the face of evidence he will pursue his ignorance.

Thats not opinion, thats insularity, bigotry, small mindedness.

RedSky

I wasn't saying that. I WAS saying that Armstong was at the same level four years before his first TdF win, that Indurain was, four years before HIS first TdF win.

If Indurain had gotten cancer in 1988 and not gotten the palmares he got between then and his TdF win in 1991, would we all assume that was because of doping? I hope not.

But it is more sensible to imagine that, had Armstrong not gotten cancer in 1996, his career profile would have been a gradual increase in palmares up to his first TdF win in 1999, like Indurain's. In fact, given his natural talent, it's quite possible that Lance could have won in 1998 had he dropped 20 lbs of weight.

Ask yourselves this: what is going to have a bigger effect on a rider, synthetically boosting hematocrit to the maximum legal limit, or carting around 20 fewer pounds throughout the entire tour?

I don't think you can underestimate the physical transformation that LA went though when he rebuilt himself after chemotherapy.... or the effect that taking almost two years off of cycling had on his success curve.

limerickman

For me, the contemporaneous words - recorded by people with no agenda - carry more weight than Armstrong or Carmichaels views.
contemporaneous words and statistics - recorded by people with no agenda between 1992-1996.

I could be wrong - but based on what I have read, I believe that I am right.

Bigotry and smallmindedness are the results of irrationality.

My argument about Armstrong is based upon published statistics and the words of lA between 1992-1996.
If you contend that my argument is irrational - then the words and stats between 1992-1996 are irrational.

Dermo

Yes indeed my contention stands.

limerickman

Well thanks for making that clear - we have no need to discuss anything
more, do we ?

Perro Loco

I think you are right in looking at the"primary data" but keep in mind by 96 Armstrong WAS becoming more than competitive in all but the grand tours (classics, shorter stage races etc.). Also from 92-96 you are talking about someone who was 20-24 years old.

mitosis

Read what I wrote. I Didn't say he was guilty. I Pointed out some facts.

Show me the holes.

Try and add something constructive of your own if you want to be part of this.

renoster

I would very much like to believe that Lance is not doping - and will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt until such time as any real evidence is provided to the contrary. What would remove a lot more doubt from my mind would be if his actions were more conclusively in support of ridding the peleton of this plague.

I only became a fan of Lance's after the 2003 Tour where he finally had to battle for a win. Some events since then have tested my support of him.

Why battle Dick Pound earlier in the year when it is patently obvious that drug use continues to be a problem within the peleton. There were at least 8 deaths in a short space of time and some riders have admitted to using banned substances. Lance should be working with WADA to spread the word that doping is dangerous and threatens the existence of the sport on which his successes are based.

Personally chasing down Filippo Simeoni then returning to the peleton smirking like a schoolboy and making "zipping the mouth" signs was an action that horrified me. Did I misunderstand his gestures? It looked to me like it was an indication that noone can break "The Code of Silence" and get away with it.

I would personally be a lot more convinced that Lance is clean when he chooses to take a positive stand against the use of illegal substances in the peleton and his actions reflect that stand. Lance should support the efforts of WADA and assist in ridding the sport of cheats. Stay out of the Simeoni situation until the investigation of Michele Ferrari is completed. I really hope Lance is clean - the resultant scandal if he is not will be a huge blow to cycling.