What would it take to convince you Armstrong is clean?

Originally Posted by flintman

What's religion got to do with this? If you wanna talk about the "miracles" of religion, then bring it on. We can start with how many people Pope Pius III and Pope Innocent V had slaughtered in the name of Christ, just for the kickoff. But that should take place in a more general forum.

However, this board is about cycling. To answer the title of this thread, I don't know? It's obvious the peloton has a long history with drug use. I suppose there will be a cloud hanging over the sport for sometime to come? THG wasn't known or detactable either, and most of us know how that whole thing has begun to unwind?

Now, from what records (lack of) that MLB has disclosed about their infant drug testing program, it would seem Barry Bonds is as clean as a slate. 99% of SF Giant fans believe it to be true. Just look at the guy, I'm pretty damn sure he's pumping something.

Originally Posted by limerickman

How come LA finished 1hour 26secs behind Miguel Indurain in the 1995 TDF if he had these great gifts as Carmichaels purports ?

Originally Posted by limerickman

he won a one day race - called the world road race title.

With respect one day races are a vastly different to stage races.

The analogy : Michael Johnson 400m champion Atlanta 1996.

Carmichael, Bryneel and the rest of the USPS apologists ask us to consider
Michael Johnson winning the 400m im 1996 and then coming back to Sydney in 2000 to win the marathon.

This is what we are being asked to accept, in a cycling context, with regard to Armstrong.
(1992-1996 Michael Johnson : 1999-2004 Haile Gabersalaisse).

Originally Posted by Dermo

How come Indurain finished 3 hours behind Roche in 1987 but won the first of his tours in 1991?

What a stupid argument you present.

Originally Posted by Miguel_garcia83

a handicapped would understand it better, but i am not going to write indurains progression in the tour of france, or any other riders and comparing it with lances

Originally Posted by limerickman

By posting Carmichaels revisionist urban myth - you the one that is spreading propoganda.
All of Carmichaels bilge about VOmax, heart size etc - all applied in 1992-1996, as it dies to 1999-2004.
Yet our friend was unable to win a stage race apart from the Tour du Pont.

Also another urban myth that was posted earlier was that LA was No1 rated
cyclist in the world in 1996 - once again, this is only partially true.
He was No1 for ONE MONTH IN MAY 1996 ONLY.
Laurent Jalabert was the No 1 cyclist in 1996.
When I read this lie about him being No 1 in 1996, I recalled a book that I have by the International Herald cycling journalist Sam Abt.
Abt is a respected (American) cycling journalist.

In this book, Abt followed the peloton for the year 1996.
Page 45 of the book is worth reading.
Armstrong "Jalabert is some cyclist - I prepared really well over the winter.
I targetted Paris-Nice as a race to win and I clocked up serious mileage in training.
I was speaking with Tony (Rominger) and he and Jalabert were on the Toshiba
team in 1989/1990.
Tony says that Jalabert is a great talent.
I prepared specifically for Paris-Nice but Jalabert just blew me away"

Move to the Tour du Pont - Abt states "the Tour Du Pont while not being
on the same level as a European stage race such as Paris-Nice, it is growing in popularity and is helped by the presence of Tony Rominger who at 35
is coming toward the end of his career"
Rominger "our team were asked to participate and I am delighted to be here,
my wife can go shopping while I compete" (sounds really competitive doesn't, it ?).
Rominger "this trip to America is relly interesting, I like visiting new places and
learning about a new culture" (is he more interested in a holiday or racing ?)
Robbie McEwen Rabobank "we're here to compete - although this race isn't at
the same standard as in Europe, hopefully in a few years it might be stronger"

Moving on through the book - Motorola Armstrongs team announce that they
will not be renewing their contract to stay in the sport in August 1996.
Armstrong "well we knew that Motorola were undecided and that is why I was
anxious to get results so that I will be able to get another cycling contract.
Fabio's (Casartelli) death makes me realise that life goes by. I would be lying if I said I get up each morning and that I am thinking about Fabio but when Motorola hadn't made up their mind to commit to this team and coupled with
Fabio's death, I had a lot on my mind in winter (1995).
I trained hard - very hard - no days off, spending hours on the bike in order to get results, so as to make myself marketable, if the worst came to the worst.
I respect Jim Ochowicz and I have told him that I want to stay part of this team and I will try to delay moving to another team for as long as possible.
I have made tentative enquiries - my people contacted Banesto (Indurains
team at the time) but they're not interested at all.
I've spoken with some others - Festina wanted an answer before the end of July but I wasn't prepared to commit and let Jim down in case he got a new
sponsor.
Festina then faxed me to say that they were no interested - shows how much they were interested, don't it ?
Cofidis have been very enthuasiastic and if it comes down to it, I will sign with them but I want to see can we get a sponsor to keep this team together.
I will delay signing until I know that Jim hasn't got any sponsor"

Abt's book is a contemporaneous record of 1996 :
Abt records Armstrongs thoughts, the strength of races during the season,
riders impressions of races.

Ted B quotes a retrospective statement of revisionism by Carmichael.
As with Armstrong's two books and Carmichael's statements, I think that
figures and statements have been made to create a perception post 1998,
which is contradicted statistically (1992-1996) and by Samual Abt and by
Cycling Sport and other contemporaneous accounts, as well as actual live
video footage from Eurosport 1992-1996 of LA just not being able to
cycle like he does 1999-2004.

If we are to take Carmichaels statement about LA as being truthful - why
didn't all those natural gifts propel LA to win stages races ?
How come these gifts only secured LA a rating of No 1 in the world for one month ?
If these natural gifts were so apparent how come Lance Armstrong wasn't bought immediately by other teams knowing that this great engine was going
to be on the market ?
How come LA finished 1hour 26secs behind Miguel Indurain in the 1995 TDF
if he had these great gifts as Carmichaels purports ?

Originally Posted by Miguel_garcia83

a handicapped would understand it better, but i am not going to write indurains progression in the tour of france, or any other riders and comparing it with lances

Originally Posted by Dermo

Let's not loose sight of the most important fact here.

Nobody gives a flying fuck about Limerickman's views. They are unsubstantiated and not a little disingenuous.

If you are right Limerickman I will hold up my hands, but until then why dont you just shut up with all the unsubtantiated allegations and spoilers.

Originally Posted by limerickman

Eh ?

No !

Originally Posted by limerickman

Eh ?

No !

Originally Posted by meehs

The fact remains that:

Indurain was 3 hours down in 1987 and won his first TdF four years later in 1991.

Armstrong was 1 hour down in 1995 and won his first TdF four years later in 1999.

But for some reason in Armstrong's case some people insist that the result must be from doping. For some reason in Indurain's case an even greater improvement is acceptable.

Originally Posted by cleff

Wasn't Indurain in that one day race too? He did pretty well in it too, right? So wouldn't that be like someone who wins the gold medal in the olympics for the marathon, and in the same year compete well in a 400m race. That would be impossible, right? So maybe your analogy doesn't work so well.

Originally Posted by limerickman

1987 Indurain TDF detail is correct.

You omit to say that Indurain ascent to the TDF included winning Paris-Nice
1989, 1990.
Indurain progressed from being 97th in 1987 to 10th in 1990 TDF.
You omit to include that Indurain won the Tour of Catalonia.

Armstrong on the way to his TDF win in 1999 - had only a Tour Du Pont '95 96,which I pointed out had a field including Tony Rominger (35) and his wife - who was on a shopping trip to the USA.

With respect Indurains progress as a stage rider makes his achievements more
plausible as he was managing to win stages races and progressing, year on year, up the TDF finish table.

Originally Posted by limerickman

1987 Indurain TDF detail is correct.

You omit to say that Indurain ascent to the TDF included winning Paris-Nice
1989, 1990.
Indurain progressed from being 97th in 1987 to 10th in 1990 TDF.
You omit to include that Indurain won the Tour of Catalonia.

Armstrong on the way to his TDF win in 1999 - had only a Tour Du Pont '95 96,which I pointed out had a field including Tony Rominger (35) and his wife - who was on a shopping trip to the USA.

With respect Indurains progress as a stage rider makes his achievements more
plausible as he was managing to win stages races and progressing, year on year, up the TDF finish table.