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25-07.-2004, 12:37 PM
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#76 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,398
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
I've stated on the other site (and when you had asked me in private messages on the other site) that I do not cycle. That does not mean I cannot reason or do not follow cycling. So asking for "credentials" as a means of steering attention away from the relative strengths of our arguments will not cloud the clarity of each person's arguments (or lack thereof).
Explain why JU did not podium this year. Explain why Kloden podiums this year. Explain why Heras did not do well. Explain why Mayo did not do well. Explain why Botero performed the way he did. Explain why Guerini, who once won Alpe d'Huez, did not again win Alpe d'Huez, under your theory that a cyclist has to explain differences in performance. Explain why Indurain failed to win six (and don't use the age argument, since your theory of a need for explanations in differences in performances in different years is in tension with developments, whether positive or negative, as a result of age). Explain why Virenque has not won the polka dot jersey consecutively. Explain why JU won an ITT in the TdF last year and did not win an ITT in the TdF this year. Explain why JU won the German road championship at some point but not this year. Was JU doping in prior years and not doping this year because he was concerned about increased testing? The answer is of course not, and the absurdity of the question highlights the absurdity of the request for explanations in LA's pre-illness performance and his post-illness performance, or in performance in any situation (Situation 1) versus another situation (Situation 2).  Explain why Kloden won the German road championship this year. |
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25-07.-2004, 12:50 PM
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#77 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,574
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
Indeed, you do not cycle. And it shows. It shows because if I beat X repeatedly for a number of years - and X gets sick and comes back and beats me - I would begin to wonder. You see I've never seen the LA situation before. Not at amateur level or professional level. So naturally I am suspicious. You on the other hand - accept it at face value. You've never raced - so I don't expect you to understand. Improvements like this in cycling, don't happen. Disimprovments happen all the time - thus the above question you ask is non-sensical. I used to get whipped by a guy - he was so good he turned professional. Rode some major tours as well. He retired got married. Guess what ? he came back to the sport 2 years ago. And guess what ? I beat him. Why ? I was using drugs ? No. He got married, priorites changed He's a better cyclist than me - always was, always will be. but I beat him 'cause he's got kids and he's not training. That explains a fall. I can't explain why riders didn't do well. I'm not really interested in why they didn't do well. I am more interested in knowing why a rider who had a very poor palmares bewteen 1992-1996 can suddenly develope a great palmares between 1998-2004. ullrichwould have won more T'sDF bwteen 1999-2004 but for this quantum leap in performance. As for Sastre, Kloden etc - I am not really interested in why they did/didn't perform. I think Miguel answered this for you anyway. |
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25-07.-2004, 12:51 PM
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#78 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Santander
Posts: 153
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
well, not get me wrong but some of these questions are a bit stupid.. ullrich didnt podium this year because he was not the first half of tuor, his team did bad at the TTT, and he wasnt good at the pyrenees and had too much time lost with basso, kloden and armstrong, impossible to recover kloden has podium because he hasnt failed, although he hasnt been on top and because many riders did fail, ullrich, mayo, hamilton... heras didnt do well because he is not good, he is overestimated i dont know why mayo did bad, some said that the 4 minutes he lost in wasqueal affected him psichologically, its a mistery, not even at euskaltel team know what happened to him what perfomance has botero had? he was 7th in tour of france 2000 because he got long breakaways with dekker and some others that made him got that good place, 8th in 2001, and 4th in 2002, nothing conpared to lance armstrongs the question about guerini has no sense indurain failed in 1996 because road to les arcs, there was an infernal weather, he was too wrapped up and got a .... i dont know the name in english, so he lost all his chances of win in les arcs, plus he couldnt follow riis ( monsieur 60% ) in hautacam nor larrau the other questions are stupid |
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25-07.-2004, 12:55 PM
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#79 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
Miguel, I wouldn't have bothered to answer Musette on this because quite frankly she is a cheerleader for LA and cannot abide criticism of him by anyone. (long history here - she was on another site posing as an JU supporter when in fact she posted tracts of information endorsing LA - so to go to the bother of answering her inane questions is a waste of time in this instance). |
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25-07.-2004, 12:56 PM
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#80 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,398
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
The request for explanations in the case of LA, JU, Kloden, Mayo and Heras is all equally misguided. Obviously, each year, each rider improves or deteriorates or stays the same, and faces different circumstances.
The explanations purported fo rJU's differences in performance are as persuasive (or not) as the explanations already set forth in this thread for LA's performances. The bottom line is that strong allegations call for strong evidence, which is lacking, causing people to have to try and distract opthers from the absence of such evidence by asking for explanations as to improved performance. Give me a break. |
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25-07.-2004, 12:58 PM
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#81 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Santander
Posts: 153
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
yes well, i have nothing else to do  |
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25-07.-2004, 01:02 PM
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#82 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,398
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Viewers of the threads who are posting will see for themselves who has the better argument, and who is making strange requests for explanations.
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25-07.-2004, 01:10 PM
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#83 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 552
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
...yet another statement by Miguel that is contrary to even basic knowledge. One does not lose power when the lost weight is upper body mass. Ullrich loses about the same every year, and he does not 'lose power'. |
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25-07.-2004, 01:13 PM
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#84 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 55
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
Yes you are right. I got the info wrong. |
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25-07.-2004, 01:14 PM
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#85 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
So you believe that Armstrong is entirely clean ? |
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25-07.-2004, 01:14 PM
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#86 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Santander
Posts: 153
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
well, i just tried to mean what indurain said on the radio in spain, normally if you lose weight you lose power what is the weight of ullrich when he is fit? thats the weight that counts i reckon, not the weight in christmas |
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25-07.-2004, 01:20 PM
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#87 | ||
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 552
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
That does not change the fact that like LA, Indurain's name was scarcely mentioned until his lone stage break in the '89 tour. Until that time, he was a non-issue and not considered as a real contender until '90...some five years after his first TdF. Some greats did not race the TdF until they felt they were able to win it (e.g. Hinault, Lemond). Others struggled with it from early in their carreers (Indurain, Armstrong). In no way does this prove drug use. Quote:
Very easily, I've read both of his books, where he goes into detail in the apparent chronological development of his medical condition. Perhaps you should consider them for your reading list before you comment. |
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25-07.-2004, 01:24 PM
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#88 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 552
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
Lance Armstrong from '92-'96: 1996 1st . Flèche Wallonne 1st . five stages, Tour DuPont 1st . overall, Tour DuPont 2nd . three stages, Paris-Nice 2nd . overall, Paris-Nice 2nd . Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2nd . overall, Paris-Nice 2nd . GP Eddy Merckx 2nd . overall, Tour of Holland 4th . Leeds International Classic 4th . GP Suisse 6th . time trial, Olympic Games 7th . overall, World Cup standings 12th . road race, Olympic Games 1995 1st . stage, Tour de France 1st . Clasica San Sebastian 1st . three stages, Tour DuPont 1st . overall, Tour DuPont 1st . stage, Paris-Nice 1st . overall, Kmart Classic 1st . stage, Kmart Classic 1st . Tour of America race series 2nd . stage, Tour de France 2nd . Thrift Drug Classic 5th . CoreStates US Pro Championship 6th . Liège-Bastogne-Liège 10th . overall, World Cup standings 36th . overall, Tour de France 1994 1st . Thrift Drug Classic 1st . stage, Tour DuPont 2nd . overall, Tour DuPont 2nd . Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2nd . Clasica San Sebastian 6th . overall, World Cup standings 7th . overall, Tour of Switzerland 7th . road race, World Championships 1993 1st . road race, World Championships 1st . stage, Tour de France 1st . CoreStates US Pro Championship 1st . Trophee Laigueglia 1st . Thrift Drug Classic 1st . stage, Tour DuPont 1st . Vuelta Ciclista a Galega 1st . overall, Kmart Classic 1st . stage, Tour of Sweden 1st . overall, Tour of America 2nd . overall, Tour DuPont 1992 1st . First Union Grand Prix 1st . Thrift Drug Classic 1st . stage,Trittico Premondiale 1st . overall, Vuelta La Riberia 1st . 3 stages, Vuelta La Riberia 2nd . Championship of Zurich 12th . overall, Tour DuPont 12th . road race, Olympic Games Funny, I don't see where he suffered from 'very poor palmares'. |
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25-07.-2004, 01:28 PM
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#89 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,574
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
I read both books - in my opinion they don't amount to any credible explanation as to his improvement. 1985-1989 for Indurain showed consistent, year on year improvement both in the TDF and other stage races. J-M identified in Miguel the raw material upon which he could develope a successor to Delgado. From 1987 onwards Reynolds/Banesto invested significant time and training in to developing Miguel. Unlike Armstrong, who had little or no stage race wins between 1992-1996. Yes I am aware of the history of cycling to know that people did debut at the tDF on the basis of attempting to win it at the first attempt. |
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25-07.-2004, 01:29 PM
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#90 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Santander
Posts: 153
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Re: Cry Baby Simeoni
Quote:
wow first union grand prix, thats makes of him a real outsider for the win of tour of france. we must respect tour of france winners and podiums and before 1999 he had only finished once the tour of france and dont know how many houres behind from indurain |
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