Torque wrenches

Qui si parla Campagnolo

jeff-<< From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
less tenuous. >><BR><BR>



ooooommmmmm......

Jeff<< I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
doesn't happen very often. >><BR><BR>

Yep, gathered that when you said I was full of shit....

To NOT pick up a torque wrench and use it is a matter of 'I can hack' type
mentality that drives bike shops outta biz everyday. How tough is it to pick up
that torque wrench instead of the 8mm allen?

Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you don't like? When you say your
hands are 'calibrated', it smacks of 'I don't NEED' this silly girly tool'.


Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

jeff-<< I objected (and still do) to an unflattering generalization of
character that doesn't apply to me. I said why I don't use one much
and that makes me full of shit then I guess I am. >><BR><BR>

Why not dig deep down, and try to find a way to discuss the benefits or
problems with torque wrenches or anything else 'bike' and 'try' to just say it,
w/o taking one post so personally that ya gotta say something juvenile like
'yer full of shit'...eh???

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo

carl-<< Dear Jeff,

You're full of shit.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel >><BR><BR>


Funny!!!

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Sheldon Brown

Peter Chisholm wrote:

> Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you don't like?=20

It substitutes the rote repetition of a number somebody wrote on a piece =

of paper for the mechanic's judgement which takes into account the=20
actual tolerances, surface conditions and lubrication condition of the=20
parts involved.

> think, 'crank bolts'....

Yes, I do. If you look at the scripts, they specify the same torque=20
value for both sides. This is clearly an oversimplification.

It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the right side.=20
Here's why:

=95When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left side that=20
comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra tight precludes this.

=95Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on the right=20
side, because this can cause chainline problems, or, in extreme cases,=20
chainring clearance problems.

Mindlessly using some arbitrary torque number ignores these real-world=20
differences, as it ignores other aspects of fastener condition/applicatio=
n.

Torque wrenches are johnny-come-lately tools in the bike industry. I=20
don't think any bike shop in the world used one before the 1980s, even=20
though bicycle technology goes back over 100 years before that.

Sheldon "Judgement, Not Rote Number Copying" Brown
+-------------------------------------+
| One can never know what is enough |
| until one knows what is too much. |
| --William Blake |
+-------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

jeffbonny

So vecchio51@aol.com (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) says:

>jeff-<< I objected (and still do) to an unflattering generalization of
>character that doesn't apply to me. I said why I don't use one much
>and that makes me full of shit then I guess I am. >><BR><BR>
>
>Why not dig deep down, and try to find a way to discuss the benefits or
>problems with torque wrenches or anything else 'bike' and 'try' to just say it,
>w/o taking one post so personally that ya gotta say something juvenile like
>'yer full of shit'...eh???
>
>
I will make every attempt to do that. I'm also counting on a mechanic
of yer caliber and experience to be less...er,ah..."inaccurate?" in
summing up the abilities and intentions of someone you don't know.
Generalizations tend to work kinda cruddy on individuals.

And having to deal with Dear Carl did make me truly sorry I was not
more diplomatic. If I had a buck for every time I missed an
opportunity to keep my mouth shut...

jeffb

jeffbonny

So vecchio51@aol.com (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) says:

>jeff-<< From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
>>breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
>>an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
>>become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
>>to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
>>less tenuous. >><BR><BR>

>ooooommmmmm......

Are you saying I'm full of shit? At least I was honest enough to come
right out and say it. Given the choice between honest profanity and G
rated sarcasm I'll take the honest response any day.

>To NOT pick up a torque wrench and use it is a matter of 'I can hack' type
>mentality that drives bike shops outta biz everyday. How tough is it to pick up
>that torque wrench instead of the 8mm allen?
>
>Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you don't like? When you say your
>hands are 'calibrated', it smacks of 'I don't NEED' this silly girly tool'.
>
You're wrong but Maestro Brown rebuts you better than I can.

jeffb

Werehatrack

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:03:55 -0400, Sheldon Brown
<CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> may have said:

>Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
>> Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you don't like?
>
>It substitutes the rote repetition of a number somebody wrote on a piece
>of paper for the mechanic's judgement which takes into account the
>actual tolerances, surface conditions and lubrication condition of the
>parts involved.

Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide judgement for the
inexperienced?

> > think, 'crank bolts'....
>
>Yes, I do. If you look at the scripts, they specify the same torque
>value for both sides. This is clearly an oversimplification.
>
>It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the right side.
>Here's why:
>
>When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left side that
>comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra tight precludes this.

So, what you're really saying is that the spec for the left is wrong;
the wrench does not know what you're using it on, why blame the tool?

>Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on the right
>side, because this can cause chainline problems, or, in extreme cases,
>chainring clearance problems.

So, do you advocate using a torque wrench there, then?

>Mindlessly using some arbitrary torque number ignores these real-world
>differences, as it ignores other aspects of fastener condition/application.

This is where experience can beneficially modify behavior...but in my
estimation, it is unlikely that lack of experience coupled with not
following the recommended procedures would improve the results that
would be obtained by adhering to the guidelines. At the very least,
if the published procedures are followed and a problem is then
encountered, the ingredients that went into making the mess can be
quantified...and the experience gained can produce a better result.

>Torque wrenches are johnny-come-lately tools in the bike industry. I
>don't think any bike shop in the world used one before the 1980s, even
>though bicycle technology goes back over 100 years before that.

Uhhh, no, the Schwinn shop near where I lived in Miami had one of the
dial-type Snap-on wrenches in the 1960s. I know this because it was
the first place I'd ever seen one. I don't have a clue what they used
it for, though. Perhaps the old crank cotters? Those could be
notoriously ugly to remove if Captain Overtorque was the last one who
worked on the bike. I'll admit that I can't think of anything else
for which they'd even have potentially been needed in those days,
unless it was in the old gearhubs (about which I will admit my
ignorance; I tried very hard to avoid having to open those up). Tech,
however, has moved on, and now there are things that are less
forgiving than we had back then.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Jeff Wills

Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message news:<40755BCB.70701@sheldonbrown.com>...
<snip>
I agree with everything that Sheldon says, except:

> Torque wrenches are johnny-come-lately tools in the bike industry. I
> don't think any bike shop in the world used one before the 1980s, even
> though bicycle technology goes back over 100 years before that.
>

When I started wrenching for money (I won't call it "being a
professional mechanic"), we had a table of torque values for all the
fasteners on the bike. These were applied on each *new* bike we
assembled from the box. This was in 1979- and I'm pretty sure that
process was followed for many years before that at that shop.

Of course, our most popular bikes were Schwinn Varsities, which will
survive the most incompetent mechanics. They're a great training
ground.

Jeff "Good Judgement Comes From Bad Judgement" Wills


> Sheldon "Judgement, Not Rote Number Copying" Brown
> +-------------------------------------+
> | One can never know what is enough |
> | until one knows what is too much. |
> | --William Blake |
> +-------------------------------------+

Dave

Paul Davis wrote:

> Could anyone recommend a good torque wrench for a beginner (the local bike
> shop has warned me off of beam type torque wrenches)?

What are beam type torque wrenches? Is that what the Park TW-1 and TW-2 are?

Anyone have experience with the MasterCraft ones? They're available from
Canadian Tire for about $70CDN. I know Snap-On stuff is nice, but those
torque wrenches seems exceptionally expensive. :-(

Opinions?

Dave

Sheldon Brown

Peter Chisholm wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you don't like?

I replied in part:

>>It substitutes the rote repetition of a number somebody wrote on a piece
>>of paper for the mechanic's judgement which takes into account the
>>actual tolerances, surface conditions and lubrication condition of the
>>parts involved.
>
Someone who turns into a piece of furniture when the moon is full wrote:

> Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide judgement for the
> inexperienced?
>
That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for experience.
>
>>>think, 'crank bolts'....
>>
>>Yes, I do. If you look at the scripts, they specify the same torque
>>value for both sides. This is clearly an oversimplification.
>>
>>It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the right side.
>>Here's why:
>>
>>When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left side that
>>comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra tight precludes this.
>
>
> So, what you're really saying is that the spec for the left is wrong;

Not necessarily, I'm saying that a one-size-fits-all spec is not as
reliable as the judgement of a good mechanic.

> the wrench does not know what you're using it on, why blame the tool?
>
Who's blaming the tool? Might as well blame spell checkers for some of
the amusing malapropisms that come out of various word processors.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/humor.html#checker
>
>>Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on the right
>>side, because this can cause chainline problems, or, in extreme cases,
>>chainring clearance problems.
>
>
> So, do you advocate using a torque wrench there, then?
>
I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's primarily an
automotive tool.

My point is that torque wrenches are _not_ and _essential_ tool for
bicycle work, and anybody who claims they are is blowing smoke.

They may be of some use as "training wheels" for beginner mechanics,
though I suspect that, as with training wheels for bikes, they delay
mastery.

There's no substitute for breaking/stripping a few bits of hardware to
educate you hands and brain about how a properly tightened fastener feels.

If you feel that you are incapable of judging tightness without the aid
of a torque wrench, go ahead and use one, but don't assert that
everybody needs to do so.

Sheldon "Doesn't Pound Wrenches With His Feet" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------+
| Men have become the tools of their tools. |
| -- Henry David Thoreau |
+-------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Carl Fogel

Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message news:<40755BCB.70701@sheldonbrown.com>...
> Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
> > Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you don't like?
>
> It substitutes the rote repetition of a number somebody wrote on a piece
>
> of paper for the mechanic's judgement which takes into account the
> actual tolerances, surface conditions and lubrication condition of the
> parts involved.
>
> > think, 'crank bolts'....
>
> Yes, I do. If you look at the scripts, they specify the same torque
> value for both sides. This is clearly an oversimplification.
>
> It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the right side.
> Here's why:
>
> When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left side that
> comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra tight precludes this.
>
> Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on the right
> side, because this can cause chainline problems, or, in extreme cases,
> chainring clearance problems.
>
> Mindlessly using some arbitrary torque number ignores these real-world
> differences, as it ignores other aspects of fastener condition/applicatio
> n.
>
> Torque wrenches are johnny-come-lately tools in the bike industry. I
> don't think any bike shop in the world used one before the 1980s, even
> though bicycle technology goes back over 100 years before that.
>
> Sheldon "Judgement, Not Rote Number Copying" Brown

Dear Peter and Sheldon,

Most fasteners on bicycles are over-engineered by
design, so they neither break off nor loosen when
tightened by hand and Kentucky windage.

After a while, an "experienced" mechanic understandably
mistakes the forgiving nature of so many nuts and bolts
for expertise.

How does the expert know the right tension? Well, it
didn't bust off, it feels pretty tight, and he's been
doing it for years--successfully, with an occasional
need to tighten things up if they turn out to be just
a little bit loose.

The expert mechanic's opinion of his skill is increased
when he fiddles with bearings. Delicate adjustment of
wheel bearings with just enough pre-load for a quick-release
is not something that a torque wrench can do well, so the
mechanic understandably feels that his skillful touch is
superior.

What he forgets is that he doesn't adjust bearings by
skillful touch. He tightens the cone nuts by hand until
he feels resistance--skillful touch. But then he tests
by spinning the wheel and finds that he needs to skillfully
loosen the nut just a bit. Another test spin reveals that
the nut could stand to be just a little tighter---there!

Would anyone want to ride a bike whose bearings had
been adjusted solely by twisting the nuts and never
checked for proper torque by actually spinning the
bearings?

The same is true of wheel-building. Who would want to
ride wheels built solely by how tight the spoke wrench
felt to the mechanic? He tightens a spoke and checks
the result by spinning the wheel until it's roughly
true. Then he tightens the spokes up until some (often
ill-defined) situation occurs or uses a tensio-meter
to check the tension. Various magic incantations follow,
but the truing, plucking, tensio-meter and rim-yield
checking are all torque-wrench-style checking. (It's
noticeable that there is no test for the popular
stress-relief process.)

Such testing is not used on most other bicycle parts
because a quick twist of the wrench is good enough.
Even brief experience is enough to let most people
tighten a nut sufficiently to stay in place, while
few nuts are so delicate that they break even when
torqued to twice the recommended value.

But no matter how proud the experienced mechanic is of
his skillful touch, he usually gives the seat a twist
and a shove after tightening the clamp--and tightens
the clamp if the seat moves. The twist and shove is no
torque wrench, but it's the same idea of testing.

One of the more amusing sights in a motorcycle shop occurs
when one expert mechanic accidentally begins going over a
machine just worked on by another expert mechanic and starts
muttering about things being too tight or too loose.
(Machines worked on by both mechanics have no problems.
They use torque wrenches where it really matters.)

Jesus Christ probably had to listen to one Roman soldier
arguing with another about whether the spikes had been
pounded in far enough, while a third reminded them that
no one had ever fallen off a crucifix and could be slapped
back up in a hurry if he did.

Torque wrenches aren't necessary for putting bicycles
together, but a cheap beam-style torque wrench can often
surprise an experienced mechanic, who may learn that
he's been over-tightening things for years (oops!),
that he's been leaving them almost dangerously loose
(double oops!), or that he's been pretty close to what
the engineers recommend (whew!)--the last being impossible
to verify without a torque wrench, a slight swallowing of
pride, and about ten seconds of practical testing.

Go ahead, spend $20 on a beam-style torque wrench, and see
how close your judgement is to what the designers thought
would be a good heave. It's what most people would expect
from a technical forum. (Luckily, the designers don't expect
as much and over-engineer the parts.)

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel

jeffbonny <jeffbonny@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote in message news:<eho9705p8t1ufbsctq8foggmnjk2da4bs6@4ax.com>...
> So carlfogel <usenet-forum@cyclingforums.com> says:
>
> >Dear Jeff,
> >
> >You seem lost again.
> >
> >Good luck,
> >
> >Carl Fogel
>
> Dear Carl,
> If you've seen a doctor about anti-troll medication you should check
> the dosage. If you haven't seen that doctor you should. Failing that a
> logical self defense course?
> You're KF-ed for a while Carl.
> Bye now.
>
> jeffb

Whew! Now that he's out of the room, I can
simply say that he's full of shit!

Calvin Jones

(This is a general reply to the topic as it began.)
>
> There are different reasons for using a torque wrench. It must be
> kept in mind, however, a torque wrench is only a tool, and will not
> replace thinking. What a threaded fastener (nut & bolt) needs is an
> adequate amount of tension, which is simply not-too-little and
> not-too-much. This can be achieved by a truing the thread either by
> hand or by a torque wrench. A torque wrench is then a measuring tool,
> much like a spoke tensiometer, a tape measure, a caliper, or even a
> tablespoon or measuring cup for a cook. You can make a great cake by
> grabbing hands full of flour and pouring out the salt, but most people
> would not want to purchase such a cake at their local grocery store.
> A torque wrench, used correctly, makes a good mechanic better.
> However, if basic knowledge is lacking, a torque wrench will not act
> as "magic wand" making every component safe and secure.
>
> There is also a difference between working on your own bike, and
> working professionally on other peoples bikes. Correct use of a
> torque wrench is one more way a shop can stand fully behind its work.
> A quick look at various bicycle forums will show that the creaking
> bicycle is often an issue, making lack of torque knowledge wide
> spread.

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in the
"industry" mean that we are simply behind, which should not be a
surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket science. There are now
higher torque values commonly used. While my macho friends may think
they are applying a recommend 600 in-lb torque to a bb with a 6 inch
wrench, it is not likely. One thing a torque wrench gives the user is
simply more leverage when it counts. It is true of course this extra
leverage is double edged, and can be a detriment in the wrong hands or
with light torques.


> See also for threading and torque issues:
> http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/thread.shtml
>
> http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/torque.shtml

Werehatrack

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:08:35 -0400, Sheldon Brown
<captbike@sheldonbrown.com> may have said:

>Someone who turns into a piece of furniture when the moon is full wrote:
>
>> Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide judgement for the
>> inexperienced?
>>
>That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for experience.

No, really, there isn't, but I would rather have the inexperienced
turned into the knowledgeable in fewer breakage steps. IMO, it is
hardly reasonable to recommend that an amateur trust his own judgement
in tightening things *that matter* when the use of a torque wrench
would increase the chances of the result being close to right. In my
own case, long ago, after several dozen VW engine overhauls, I knew by
feel when the torque wrench was going to click on the head studs and
such, but I didn't start out knowing...and I'd have been pissed off as
hell if I'd had to do every job over several times, buying some new
bits on each iteration, just to find out what the right feel was.
When I took up cycling, I had years of mechanic experience on other
equipment...but I still had to find the places where things were
critical on bikes, and it turned out that one of them really did need
a torque wrench before I was going to get the feel. Tightening the
bolts (or nuts, on cheap BBs) on the cranks didn't have the nice,
familiar plateau whwere it became obvious that the fastener was as
snug as it needed to be; the taper meant that the effort just had a
moderately linear increase, with nothing to clearly point up the "it's
done, Jim" spot. I'll give you the contention that the left cranks
can often stand a bit more than the right, though for the life of me I
can't really understand why this is the case. Still, in that *one*
instance, had I gone at it with a wink and a guess, I'd likely have
driven the damn things all the way up the taper until the bolt
bottomed. (Yes, at times, I *am* Captain Overtorque[1].)

>>>It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the right side.
>>>Here's why:
>>>
>>>When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left side that
>>>comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra tight precludes this.
>>
>> So, what you're really saying is that the spec for the left is wrong;
>
>Not necessarily, I'm saying that a one-size-fits-all spec is not as
>reliable as the judgement of a good mechanic.

And therein lies the rub. Many of the people who come here, and to
your site, for advice and assistance are decidedly *not* experienced.
Those whose time in service pulling on wrenches has gifted them with
the feel for when it's "tight enough" serve the amateur poorly by not
advocating the use of the tools that will give that amateur the best
chance of getting a good result. What you and I can safely do is not
necessarily good practice for them.

>> the wrench does not know what you're using it on, why blame the tool?
>>
>Who's blaming the tool? Might as well blame spell checkers for some of
>the amusing malapropisms that come out of various word processors.
>
>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/humor.html#checker

In some cases, the spell-checker may make things amusingly worse...but
such is the nature of this language.

BTW; here's a brainstorm for your humor entries. Reversible tubeless
tires; run them slick side out on the street, invert them to put the
knobs to the trail when going off-road. The only problem I see is
that somebody might actually think it wasn't a fake product.

>>>Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on the right
>>>side, because this can cause chainline problems, or, in extreme cases,
>>>chainring clearance problems.
>>
>>
>> So, do you advocate using a torque wrench there, then?
>>
>I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's primarily an
>automotive tool.

It's a tool, period. It has many appropriate venues, from aviation
and instrumentation to sewing machines and more. Using it is one way
of learning what "tight enough" feels like *when the parts and
fasteners are in good condition and properly prepped*...and if that
requirement is skipped, the user has got some additional education to
acquire anyway.

>My point is that torque wrenches are _not_ and _essential_ tool for
>bicycle work, and anybody who claims they are is blowing smoke.
>
>They may be of some use as "training wheels" for beginner mechanics,
>though I suspect that, as with training wheels for bikes, they delay
>mastery.
>
>There's no substitute for breaking/stripping a few bits of hardware to
>educate you hands and brain about how a properly tightened fastener feels.
>
>If you feel that you are incapable of judging tightness without the aid
>of a torque wrench, go ahead and use one, but don't assert that
>everybody needs to do so.

I would say that it's safer, and more considerate, to recommend the
use of a torque wrench for critical tasks when the experience that
would make it irrelevant is not demonstrably present. The idea is to
give the questioner the information that will lead them to the best
result they are likely to achieve. Not everyone wants, needs, or can
even acquire the feel for "tight enough" in the limited number of
times that they will perform a given task...and it's rude, to my way
of thinking, to think that they'll be better off breaking something in
the long run. The idea is to help, not to set them up for a fall.
You provide people with good, sound, practical advice so consistently
and so often that you're really the last person I thought I'd see
taking the position that has been advanced; I started to wonder who
had abducted the Umber Wizard at first. I now appears that what
you're saying is they *you* don't feel the need to use a torque
wrench. Well, for a lot of tasks, when it's *me* doing them, I agree;
I don't need one either. That doesn't mean that I would recommend
that someone else, whose abilities are unknown to me, should think
that they can do likewise. It's not, in many cases, a good bet.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.