Torque wrenches

Tom Paterson

>From: "Paul Davis"

>As I've said, this is all new to me and I lack confidence so feel the need
>to be sure I'm starting off on the right foot; I feel that a torque wrench
>would help with this.

Sears' $20 torque wrench, accurate to within 4% (we live in an imperfect
world):

http://tinyurl.com/2wz8l

Not guessing but measuring is very confidence-inspiring IMHO. Got my larger
sockets for BB, cassette tools etc. at a pawn shop, surprising selection. --TP

jeffbonny

So "S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> says:

>> You're full of shit.
>
>Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
>

My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
doesn't happen very often.
ok?

jeffb

S o r n i

jeffbonny wrote:
> So "S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> says:
>
>>> You're full of shit.
>>
>> Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
>>
>
> My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
> should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
> for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
> Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
> was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
> problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
> with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.
>
> From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
> breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
> an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
> become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
> to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
> less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
> playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
> of the same thing for me.
>
> I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
> torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
> sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
> doesn't happen very often.
> ok?

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer words without
resorting to profane insults.

Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of shit" S.

jeffbonny

So "S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> says:

>Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer words

If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please edit it.
Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful. Wordy maybe but I
didn't want my position unclear.

>without resorting to profane insults.

When you attack with broad and inaccurate statements you get what you
get. FWIW I mostly agree with the guy and "begging to differ" on this
one thing does not mean I think he's full of shit on everything. Far
from it.

jeffb

Carl Fogel

jeffbonny <jeffbonny@REMCAPSshaw.ca> wrote in message news:<o5l8709e3j3g4m02fbhbv60mug2nhiae9r@4ax.com>...
> So "S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> says:
>
> >> You're full of shit.
> >
> >Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
> >
>
> My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
> should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
> for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
> Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
> was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
> problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
> with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.
>
> From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
> breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
> an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
> become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
> to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
> less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
> playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
> of the same thing for me.
>
> I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
> torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
> sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
> doesn't happen very often.
> ok?
>
> jeffb


Dear Jeff,

You're full of shit.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

jeffbonny

So carlfogel@comcast.net (Carl Fogel) says:

>Dear Jeff,
>
>You're full of shit.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

specifically or just in general?

carlfogel

Jeffbonny wrote:
> So carlfogel@comcast.net (Carl Fogel) says:
> >Dear Jeff,
> >
> >You're full of ****.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Carl Fogel
> specifically or just in general?



Dear Jeff,

"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please edit it.
Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful."

"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff Bonny on his
"You're full of ****" post

Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as clear as you
insist. First you took a few posts to explain it, and now you can't seem
to understand it.

If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should learn to use a
literary torque wrench and not let your ego get in the way?

Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe another
notch? No . . . There!

Carl Fogel



--

Bruce Graham

In article <VU0dc.2993$nd1.1516@twister.socal.rr.com>, sorni@bite-
me.san.rr.com says...
> jeffbonny wrote:
> > So "S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> says:
> >
> >>> You're full of shit.
> >>
> >> Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?
> >>
> >
> > My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I figured I
> > should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had been building wheels
> > for several years at that point including working at The Cove Bike
> > Shop and a run of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
> > was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
> > problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
> > with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.
> >
> > From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught that your
> > breathing comes from your center and your center and hands connect in
> > an unbroken line of energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to
> > become aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments required
> > to get even a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
> > less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so
> > playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part
> > of the same thing for me.
> >
> > I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using a
> > torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and when I'm not
> > sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just
> > doesn't happen very often.
> > ok?
>
> Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer words without
> resorting to profane insults.
>
> Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of shit" S.
>
>
>
My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some observation of
various LBS of fair to excellent quality. As I was originally trained as
an engineer (likes to measure everything), I asked their advice about a
suitable torque wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto torque
wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I recall, they _all_
explained that they knew by feel, the appropriate torque for each
fastener. I found this to be a bit odd, especially for items like stem
bolts into alu threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know these LBS's do
good work, in one case prepping a bike for several very long distance
unsupported outback desert treks (not me riding) where bike failure could
easily be fatal. So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue-
in-cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a torque wrench by
experienced people. So I was surprised by Peter's response (given that
he is obviously a pro with an excellent reputation) and I would be still
be surprised to hear he routinely used a torque wrench on other than
critical fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or did not use
one).

It is worth remembering that a decent design usually will work over a
fairly wide range of fastening torque. It has to because the bolt
tension will depend on thread condition, cleanliness and lubrication as
well as applied torque. Because of these variables, sometimes thread
tightening is specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts. I would certainly
trust "sorni's" hands to work within those accuracy limits, although I
would prefer him to use the torque wrench every so often just to remind
himself what the designer had in mind.

Bruce Graham

jeffbonny

So carlfogel <usenet-forum@cyclingforums.com> says:



>Dear Jeff,
>
>"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please edit it.
>Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful."
>
>"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff Bonny on his
>"You're full of ****" post

Dear Carl,
Are you drunk?
The above is Jeff Bonny commenting on his SECOND post. That would be
to post AFTER the one you seem to think referring to.

>Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as clear as you
>insist. First you took a few posts to explain it, and now you can't seem
>to understand it.

What are you on about? I understand my position and think I made it
clear in two posts. You are going to have to be specific if you want
to be understood.

>If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should learn to use a
>literary torque wrench and not let your ego get in the way?

>Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe another
>notch? No . . . There!
>
>Carl Fogel

That would almost be clever Carl if it had anything to do with the
discussion as it took place in sequence but it doesn't.

Bruce Graham

correction "jeffbonny" not "sorni" sorry

Bruce Graham

jeffbonny

So Bruce Graham <jbgraham@nowhere.com.au> says:

>correction "jeffbonny" not "sorni" sorry
>
>Bruce Graham

Indeed, credit where it is due.

Also if everyone would please note:
- I did not say torque wrenches are full of shit.
- I have admitted to using a torque wrench.
- I believe no shop is complete without a torque wrench.

I objected (and still do) to an unflattering generalization of
character that doesn't apply to me. I said why I don't use one much
and that makes me full of shit then I guess I am.

jeffb

Sheldon Brown

Bruce Graham wrote:

> My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some observation of
> various LBS of fair to excellent quality. As I was originally trained as
> an engineer (likes to measure everything), I asked their advice about a
> suitable torque wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto torque
> wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I recall, they _all_
> explained that they knew by feel, the appropriate torque for each
> fastener. I found this to be a bit odd, especially for items like stem
> bolts into alu threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
> purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know these LBS's do
> good work, in one case prepping a bike for several very long distance
> unsupported outback desert treks (not me riding) where bike failure could
> easily be fatal. So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue-
> in-cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a torque wrench by
> experienced people. So I was surprised by Peter's response

Me too, given that I'm well known to be a shy, retiring person without a
trace of ego or self-promotion...

> (given that
> he is obviously a pro with an excellent reputation) and I would be still
> be surprised to hear he routinely used a torque wrench on other than
> critical fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or did not use
> one).
>
> It is worth remembering that a decent design usually will work over a
> fairly wide range of fastening torque. It has to because the bolt
> tension will depend on thread condition, cleanliness and lubrication as
> well as applied torque.

That's correct. I wouldn't claim my hands were "calibrated" in the
sense that I could reliably tighten some fastener to a specified torque
value. I do claim that my hands and the brain they're attached to are
good at judging appropriate tightness of fasteners by feel, taking all
of those variables into account.

To me, using a torque wrench is a rote process that disregards these
critical variables.

> Because of these variables, sometimes thread
> tightening is specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
> such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts.

Actually, those are instances where I would suppose a torque wrench to
be desirable, when there's a sealing gasket involved, especially the
cylinder head exammple.

However I don't work on cars (usually even avoid pumping my own gas!) so
I have never needed nor owned a torque wrench. I did once borrow one
for a photo shoot: http://sheldonbrown.com/tork-grip.html

Sheldon "Toolaholic, But Not For Automotive Stuff" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| If a fool would persist in his folly, |
| he would become wise. |
| --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

VCopelan

>Bruce Graham jbgraham@nowhere.com.au Writes:


>My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some observation of
>various LBS of fair to excellent quality. As I was originally trained as
>an engineer (likes to measure everything), I asked their advice about a
>suitable torque wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto torque
>wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I recall, they _all_
>explained that they knew by feel, the appropriate torque for each
>fastener. I found this to be a bit odd, especially for items like stem
>bolts into alu threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
>purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know these LBS's do
>good work, in one case prepping a bike for several very long distance
>unsupported outback desert treks (not me riding) where bike failure could
>easily be fatal. So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue-
>in-cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a torque wrench by
>experienced people. So I was surprised by Peter's response (given that
>he is obviously a pro with an excellent reputation) and I would be still
>be surprised to hear he routinely used a torque wrench on other than
>critical fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or did not use
>one).
>
>It is worth remembering that a decent design usually will work over a
>fairly wide range of fastening torque. It has to because the bolt
>tension will depend on thread condition, cleanliness and lubrication as
>well as applied torque. Because of these variables, sometimes thread
>tightening is specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
>such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts.

Yes, some designs will operate over a wide range of fastener torque. However,
some designs will also fail at a torque range slightly higher than the
specified torque. The '98 and slightly earlier Campy cassette rear hubs come to
mind. The right side locknut calls for a torque setting of 10 newton meters.
The fastener will support a higher torque but the freehub bearings won't. The
newer Campy Record hubs call for quite low torque settings upon assembly.

While it is true that torque readings are influenced by tread condition,
cleanliness and the type of lubrication. It is also true that you probably
shouldn't be using a torque wrench if you're dealing with a damaged threaded
fastener or a very dirty fastener. And if you're using grease on a fastener
which should have been assembled dry, you should be reducing the torque reading
by 40%. Even assembly with grease on a fastener which calls for assembly with
oil will result in excessive assembly torque.

Given the above, I still prefer to use a torque wrench for my bicycle and a
torque/angle meter for my diesel engine repair. Yes, I could guess but the
real question is why would I want to guess when I could measure the torque.

carlfogel

Jeffbonny wrote:
> So carlfogel <usenet-forum@cyclingforums.com> says:
> >Dear Jeff,
> >
> >"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please edit it.
> >Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful."
> >
> >"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff Bonny on
> >his "You're full of ****" post
> Dear Carl, Are you drunk? The above is Jeff Bonny commenting on his
> SECOND post. That would be to post AFTER the one you seem to think
> referring to.
> >Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as clear as you
> >insist. First you took a few posts to explain it, and now you can't
> >seem to understand it.
> What are you on about? I understand my position and think I made it
> clear in two posts. You are going to have to be specific if you want to
> be understood.
> >If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should learn to use a
> >literary torque wrench and not let your ego get in the way?
> >Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe another
> >notch? No . . . There!
> >
> >Carl Fogel
> That would almost be clever Carl if it had anything to do with the
> discussion as it took place in sequence but it doesn't.



Dear Jeff,

You seem lost again.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel



--