LA's High Cadence Style and Avoidance of Leg Fatigue

gntlmn

But he doesn't weigh much more. Jan only weighs about 1 or 2 kg more than Lance, but Jan is taller than Lance.

I think the media overhypes Jan's size. In the offseason, Jan lets his weight balloon, but during the TdF, he is lean and fit. He's dubbed the "Big German", but I don't quite know why. His weight would be considered normal body weight for an average guy (non rider) of 5'7". He's 6'0".

babylou

No. Two equal climbers do not necessarily have the same mass or power output. They will have the same power to mass ratio.

Ullefan

Its the broad shape of his chin and jaw that overemphasises the fullness in his face. As it is the only part that can be seen, add a little puppy fat and you have a fat man. Other than that, everyone's belly looks fatter when we ride a bike. Everyone's born with a different number of fat cells, he probably has more than most lance probably the least. Also metabolism, I think lance has a very fast metabolism.

ric_stern/RST

as previously stated, in 2003, they TTed at the same velocity as well

ric

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gntlmn

To see whether it makes a difference involves observing the difference that lactate would have on that rider's performance, all other factors remaining unchanged. The fact that a given rider produces less lactate and rides poorly or that another rider produces more lactate and rides better ignores this factor. Clearly, in these two cases, neither one proves or disproves that lactate affects performance and/or recovery. If you put a 50 lb weight on one rider and then observe that that rider rides better than another who does not carry that 50 lb weight, are we then to conclude that that 50 lb weight makes no difference on the stronger rider's performance? No. And yet this is much like the argument you make here with lactate. You say that the weaker rider generates less lactate than the stronger rider. Therefore, reduced lactate at every level of power output in another rider is not an advantage. My guess is that it probably is an advantage. It's kind of like riding with the weight removed. The muscles will recover faster with reduced lactate.

musette

Your point about recovery is a key one. During a long stage race like TdF, where the climbing can be clumped together (i.e., mountain stages one after another) due to geography, recovery becomes very important.

gntlmn

In the case of the hour record, that the best performances have been made at the higher cadences lends support to the idea that higher cadences are better for the highest wattage performances.

There have been 5 5-time winners of the Tour de France. Of those, two of them did not pedal high cadence--Eddy Merckx and Bernard Hinault. The rest were high cadence riders: Anquetil, Indurain, Armstrong. Many would argue (especially Greg Lemond) that Hinault did not deserve his 5th Tour win, but was gifted it. That leaves only Merckx without a high cadence style. That doesn't surprise me, but it doesn't mean that Merckx could not have done better with high cadence. I think it illustrates that he stood so far ahead of his competition that he didn't need to adopt the best pedaling style.

I'm not so sure that high cadence is a huge factor in any one race or tour. I suspect that it does become a huge factor over time. I think it converts more of the leg muscle movement to aerobic rather than anaerobic. Imagine lifting a 1 lb weight. This you could lift all day aerobically. Imagine lifting successively larger weights until you get to a weight that you can barely lift. This you could lift once anaerobically. The chance of injury increases as the weight increases.

Changing your pedalling style to have increased cadence will remove more of the anaerobic element from the pedal stroke by reducing the force that the rider must exert against it at any given speed. Over a period of 5 Tour wins, I suspect that the cumulative joint, ligament, tendon, muscle damage from a high cadence pedal stroke will be lower than the same for a low cadence pedal stroke.

davidbod

Ric,

Given the fact that Jan had to go off after his Spring bail outs to lose a significant amount of weight in a short time, couldn't it be possible that he lost muscle mass with his crash weight loss. If that were the case then he could weigh near what he weighed last year or even slightly less, but be down on power due to loss of muscle.

I agree that he looks like he weighs less than last year, but he did it in such a short time, I can't see how he would have done that without compromising his conditioning and possibly power.

David

gntlmn

He did seem to be suffering somewhat in the Pyrenees, but then he seems to have recovered his form in the Alps and then also in the final TT. It might be that it took him this long to finally recover his strength from the drastic weight loss.

ric_stern/RST

if you ride at higher power you produce more lactate than if you ride at a lower power. what that ammount of lactate is, is immaterial. if you can sustain a power output that's all that matters.

lactate is completely disperesed after a *maximal* "all-out" effort within ~ 90-mins of rest (a maximal all-out effort, being an effort that a kilo track rider produces not the low amount of lactate that a TdF rider produces).

you can alter the value of lactate being produced by your diet, if you're glycogen depleted your lactate at a given power will be lower than if you're glycogen loaded, yet you won't last as long at that power (with the lower lactate).

and don't forget it's not even lactate that's limiting

ric

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musette

cyclecoach (per the website) -- After you've trained a six time TdF winner, let's see whether C Carmichael's theories hold up to your training philosophy.

ric_stern/RST

we're not talking training philosophy, but exercise physiology. i'm not sure why you don't like it and what you don't understand, but feel free to ask a query and i'll try to respond.

just because i've not coached a 6 times TdF winner doesn't make me irrelevant. It appears that CC doesn't coach LA either, but Michele Ferrari instead, at least according to his site.

however, i do coach at TT1 to recreational level, and lastly i guess, if you don't like what i write why not go to a forum that CTS sponsors, instead of one i do.

cheers
ric

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gntlmn

Apparently, what you are saying is that if you could somehow increase your blood lactate at the same power output, like say with an IV while riding on a trainer, you would see no decline in power. I find that hard to believe, but I'm eager to see the data if you've heard of any such test. Otherwise, if it does result in a decline, the amount of lactate is material. From what it sounds like with Lance's physiology, a factor of 2 would convince me. In other words, if the control group riders get double their respective normal blood lactate levels, and their power output does not decline as a result, even over several hours and many days, I would be forced to agree with you.

I would prefer to observe a halving of blood lactate at given power output to see if power output increases, but I think that would be an even harder test to devise from a technological standpoint. Also, if perceived exertion declines, and this results in higher output, how can one be sure that this is a result of reduced lactate? Hmmm.

I suppose these tests would need to be performed at the anaerobic threshold.

gntlmn

If I were a 6 time Tour de France winner, I'd want to be looking everywhere to learn something new to keep my edge. To think that Chris Carmichael has every theory down pat is simply ludicrous. Sure, he must be doing many things right, but there's plenty more to learn.

A lot of things seem simple, but when you really start taking a close look at what's going on, the answers you thought you knew are not at all clear any more.

I appreciate all the varied advice, especially when I find out I didn't have it right to start with. That's progress.