Firecrackers!

Di

> You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting
> you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying a chemical that could
> blind or poison on a dog that is merely chasing is cruelty
> to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for
play,
> not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of
> water stops them. I
have
> seen it work many times.
>
> --
> Kevan Smith
>

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
determine if it's merely a chase or bite? Don't think
so, the dog's actions are your option to determine if he
means you harm or not.

Badger_south

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:19:13 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-potato.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:47:41 -0400, Badger_South
><Badger@South.net> from wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:11:55 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-
>>potato.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:04:27 -0400, Badger_South
>>><Badger@South.net> from wrote:
>>>
>>>>But are you saying that ammonia would harm the dog? Is
>>>>it not equivalent to skunk spray (only less oily)? I'd
>>>>doubt that 1/2 clear ammonia and water would harm the
>>>>dog, but I don't know - perhaps you have some
>>>>experience?
>>>
>>>Test it on your own eyes first.
>>>
>>>Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.
>>
>>Pretty hostile response on your part to a simple question.
>>Why so hostile to fellow bikers than to growling snarling
>>animals with apparent bad intentions? I wouldn't blame
>>anyone that had been previously bitten for spraying a dog
>>(or -that- dog) - would you?
>
>It's not hostile. If you want to find out the effects of
>ammonia on eyes, then use your own. Why torture a dog?
>
>Deliberately using a chemical known to blind is cruelty to
>animals. Yes, I can blame people who break the law,
>previously bitten or not.

OK, having read the OP's 'dangers of ammonia', I agree, it's
not cool to use concentrated ammonia on animals for any
reason. I think the reason one poster mentioned it was that
it's a common household chemical, and they may have recalled
the reaction to an ammonia capsule, which when used to
arouse from fainting, causes aversion; they may have been
imagining squirting the dog's nose, actually.

So I don't think anyone would advocate, nor deliberately use
to blind, such a substance.

I've never sprayed a dog with anything, but I have been
harassed by many dogs, had them jump on me (which the owners
think is 'cute'), had their claws rip the skin on my legs
(still have a scar).

Again, your reaction seems hostile, or at least
exaggerated, considering no one said anything about
blinding, to a simple inquiry.

But it's true, eveyone seems to side with the dogs; dogs are
completely faultless, "if you get bit it's your fault for
being in the wrong place at the wrong time", "he's
harmless", "he's never done that before", "my dog would
never bite you" (while watching the dog chow down on your
leg). Perhaps we -should- spray the owners. ;-)

-Badger

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:10:55 -0500, Kevan Smith
<Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>On 20 Jun 2004 07:58:22 -0700, jkm4_72@tds.net (John) from
>http://groups.google.com wrote:
>
>>
>>The dogs have bitten me. I confronted the owner after that
>>happened and was told that since they lived in the country
>>they weren't going to chain their dogs...which I guess I
>>can understand. But there are dozens of unchained dogs
>>around here that don't chase me and have never bitten me.
>>
>>After talking to the owner some more, I decided to try
>>Halt spray. I managed to hit 1 dog with it. That dog
>>immediately stopped chasing, went to the side of the road,
>>and started rubbing its head on the ground. But the dogs
>>have continued to chase despite that instance and further
>>use of the Halt.
>>
>>I regard the owner's negligence in training and
>>controlling his animals, which is leading towards the dogs
>>being put down, as a far greater example of animal cruelty
>>than ammonia, firecrackers, or a gunshot to the head.
>
>No, ammonia is still cruel. There is no doubt the owner is
>in the wrong hear, however, you are too. Instead of
>escalating to chemical warfare, you should call the animal
>control authorities. Perhaps they can help the dogs find a
>better owner.

In other words, let the government take care of it, once
again. Man, I hate the socialist agenda. How about the
Citizen remove the threat by taking personal responsibility?

Michael J. Klein mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:19:13 -0500, Kevan Smith
<Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:47:41 -0400, Badger_South
><Badger@South.net> from wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:11:55 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-
>>potato.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:04:27 -0400, Badger_South
>>><Badger@South.net> from wrote:
>>>
>>>>But are you saying that ammonia would harm the dog? Is
>>>>it not equivalent to skunk spray (only less oily)? I'd
>>>>doubt that 1/2 clear ammonia and water would harm the
>>>>dog, but I don't know - perhaps you have some
>>>>experience?
>>>
>>>Test it on your own eyes first.
>>>
>>>Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.
>>
>>Pretty hostile response on your part to a simple question.
>>Why so hostile to fellow bikers than to growling snarling
>>animals with apparent bad intentions? I wouldn't blame
>>anyone that had been previously bitten for spraying a dog
>>(or -that- dog) - would you?
>
>It's not hostile. If you want to find out the effects of
>ammonia on eyes, then use your own. Why torture a dog?
>
>Deliberately using a chemical known to blind is cruelty to
>animals. Yes, I can blame people who break the law,
>previously bitten or not.

Law? You keep talking about laws and authorities like they
are the answer to the problem. Michael J. Klein
mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:31:15 -0400, Badger_South <Badger@South.net>
wrote:

<snippled to save everyone's sanity>

>But it's true, eveyone seems to side with the dogs; dogs
>are completely faultless, "if you get bit it's your fault
>for being in the wrong place at the wrong time", "he's
>harmless", "he's never done that before", "my dog would
>never bite you" (while watching the dog chow down on your
>leg). Perhaps we -should- spray the owners. ;-)

That is exactly what the owner said to the policeman as he
was taking their dog away for having attacked me. That was
in the US of course, and in the '60s I might add. "He's
never done that before" became "yeah, and he'll never do it
again." Michael J. Klein mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen,
Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:12:56 -0500, Kevan Smith
<Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>On 20 Jun 2004 12:11:54 GMT, gabike@aol.com (GABIKE) from
>AOL http://www.aol.com wrote:
>
>>>Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
>>>anyone spraying ammonia on a dog, I will report you to
>>>the police and follow the case through the courts to make
>>>sure you are punished. There is no need to spray ammonia
>>>on a chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks
>>>the animal enough to make it give up the chase. I have
>>>seen this work time after time.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Kevan Smith xrinafzvgu23@lnubb.pbz
>>>
>>>
>>
>>What about cruelty to humans? Get your head out of your
>>rear end.
>
>A dog chasing someone is not cruelty. It is usually
>instinct or play.

Man, you just won't give up will you? "Usually" OK, fine.
When its _not_ instinct or play, and an animal clearly wants
to do you harm, tell us all Kevan, what do you do? Do you
threaten to sue? Toss your attorney's business card as a
warning? Site articles of the local civil code? I have a
list and I'm going to compare it with your response. I'll
bet I'm right.

Michael J. Klein mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:16:05 -0500, Kevan Smith
<Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:59:43 +0800, Michael J. Klein
><mklein@mousepotato.com> from DCI HiNet wrote:
>
>>You're making assumptions. What works best is firing the
>>ammonia directly down which puts a spot of foul smelling
>>stuff between whatever is chasing you, and you.
>
>That's BS. You're just trying to appear less an ass than
>you already do. You would spray the ammonia on the dog.

How do you know? If I appear to be an ass, apparently you're
the only one who thinks so. Like I care. lol

>>Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's pet.
>>Depending upon where one lives, that may or may not be the
>>case. Where I live, the wild dog popluation frequently
>>overtakes, kills and eats humans.
>
>A dingo ate your heart, apparently.

I'm the ass, huh?

>Anyway, if you live in an area like that, you'd obviously
>be better off not riding your bike there. And, if the dogs
>are such a danger, I am sure there are organized efforts
>you can join to cull the population humanely.

Another thing you're so "sure" of, eh? I guess you could
call literally throwing hundreds of dogs in a pit and
dousing them with chemicals "humane" but that isn't my
style. This is Asia, not Peoria.

>Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

actually be paying attention, that's your problem, not mine.

Michael J. Klein mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:15:12 GMT, "H. M. Leary"
<mikie357@forgedabit.net> wrote:

>In article <hdhbd0pqi0sci8cj0bftu83pg4n07gbtd8@4ax.com>,
>Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:59:43 +0800, Michael J. Klein
>> <mklein@mousepotato.com> from DCI HiNet wrote:
>>
>> >You're making assumptions. What works best is firing the
>> >ammonia directly down which puts a spot of foul smelling
>> >stuff between whatever is chasing you, and you.
>>
>> That's BS. You're just trying to appear less an ass than
>> you already do. You would spray the ammonia on the dog.
>>
>> >Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's
>> >pet. Depending upon where one lives, that may or may not
>> >be the case. Where I live, the wild dog popluation
>> >frequently overtakes, kills and eats humans.
>>
>> A dingo ate your heart, apparently.
>>
>> Anyway, if you live in an area like that, you'd obviously
>> be better off not riding your bike there. And, if the
>> dogs are such a danger, I am sure there are organized
>> efforts you can join to cull the population humanely.
>>
>> Frankly, though, I think you are lying.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevan Smith xrinafzvgu23@lnubb.pbz
>
>Mr. Klein lives in Taiwan, Ibelieve.

Correct. It even says so in my sig. Amazing what one can
learn from a sigline, isn't it? Its also more amazing what
one fails to learn from informationn clearly presented (and
I'm not referring to you Mr. Leary).

>There, dog is a fine meal eaten by humans.

I have a story about that. In Asia, its common to have a
picture of the type of animal that a restaurant serves, like
a chicken, duck or cow, for example. One day my wife and I
were driving along and I suggested that we get some German
Shepard for lunch as I pointed to a sign with a picture of
that type of dog. She punched me in th arm and told me that
was a guard dog training school!

The Taiwanese do not eat dogs as do other Asian people (and
some Africans). I have eaten many different animals in my
travels around but never dog.

>Only fair that a dog gets a chance at eating a humane....)
>
>What a beautiful day here on the east coast. Why am I stuck
>mowing the lawn, triming the hedge cutting down a dead
>tree, etc etc etc..
>
>I could be RIDING!

Can it wait until tomorrow? lol Michael J. Klein
mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:23:50 -0500, Kevan Smith
<Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:18:48 -0500, "Pat" <me@privacy.net>
>from wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>> Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
>>> anyone spraying
>>ammonia
>>> on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the
>>> case through the courts to make sure you are punished.
>>> There is no need to spray ammonia on
>>a
>>> chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the
>>> animal enough to
>>make
>>> it give up the chase. I have seen this work time
>>> after time.
>>
>>> Kevan Smith
>>
>>Two things: One, people ARE allowed to defend themselves
>>against attackers, whether they be humans or animals. and,
>>Two, people are not bound by what one Kevan Smith thinks
>>is or is not acceptable self defense.
>
>Well, no shit. I'm glad you stepped up on your teensy
>sopabox to advocate torturing dogs.

You don't need to ride Kevan. You get enough exercise
jumping to conclusions.

>BTW, spraying a chasing dog with ammonia is NOT self
>defense.

<yawn> Burn me a CD.

Michael J. Klein mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Michael J . Kle

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:16:05 -0500, Kevan Smith
<Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

That's usually what stupid people say when confronted by a
statement they cannot imagine to be true. Smart people check
the facts and then make rebuttals, if possible.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/.../08/0821_03082-
1_straydogs.html OMG, they mention Taiwan, and its a US
news story!

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/arc.../08/05/0000046-
511 "Three years ago the stray population was estimated at
75,000, and last year it was 54,000, he said. This year the
number is roughly 18,000."

http://www.lonelocust.com/travel/Ta...ore/Taiwan3.htm
" First we caught the [Taipei Rapid Transit], then we took
off on foot. We were moving at a rapid clip, but then a pack
of wild dogs set upon us. We left Jeff for dead, fighting
off the dogs." - written by private Citizens in Taiwan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's enough to establish the point. If you are interested
you may do your own search. Michael J. Klein
mklein@mousepotato.com Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Mark Mitchell

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On 2004-06-20, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> On 20 Jun 2004 12:11:54 GMT, gabike@aol.com (GABIKE) from
> AOL http://www.aol.com wrote:
>
>>>Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
>>>anyone spraying ammonia on a dog, I will report you to
>>>the police and follow the case through the courts to make
>>>sure you are punished. There is no need to spray ammonia
>>>on a chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks
>>>the animal enough to make it give up the chase. I have
>>>seen this work time after time.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Kevan Smith xrinafzvgu23@lnubb.pbz
>>>
>>>
>>
>>What about cruelty to humans? Get your head out of your
>>rear end.
>
> A dog chasing someone is not cruelty. It is usually
> instinct or play.
>
>
> --
> Kevan Smith xrinafzvgu23@lnubb.pbz

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not
malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a
bicyclist is wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the
owner is not willing to take responsibility for the safety
(whether the threat is real or not) of others, I have no
problem correcting the dog myself.

I agree with Kevan that ammonia is probably
inappropriate, but a teaspoon of vinegar in a pint of
water will be sufficiently unpleasant to deter the dog
while having a minimal danger of causing serious health
problems for the dog.

Mark

- --
Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.

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Kevan Smith

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:06:30 -0500, "di" <di0000@cox.net> from Cox
Communications wrote:

>
>>
>> You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting
>> you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying a chemical that
>> could blind or poison on a dog that is merely chasing is
>> cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for
>play,
>> not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of
>> water stops them. I
>have
>> seen it work many times.
>>
>> --
>> Kevan Smith
>>
>
>Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine
>if it's merely a chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
freakin' read.

--
Kevan Smith
xrinafzvgu23@lnubb.pbz

Kevan Smith

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:55:29 +0800, Michael J. Klein <mklein@mousepotato.com>
from DCI HiNet wrote:

>In other words, let the government take care of it, once
>again. Man, I hate the socialist agenda. How about the
>Citizen remove the threat by taking personal
>responsibility?

You are a right wing kook.

*plonk*

--
Kevan Smith
xrinafzvgu23@lnubb.pbz

Di

"Kevan Smith" <Kevan@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message > >>
> >
> >Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine
> >if it's merely
a
> >chase or bite?
>
> No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
> freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work
you probably won't have time for another option. I prefer to
use a more effective way to stop them before getting
attacked. I know a group of cyclist that were always
harassed by a very mean dog, several were bitten and nothing
would stop this dog. It happened in rural area where local
law enforcement could or would not do anything. They would
try to time their encounter by luring him to run across the
road in front of oncoming traffic. Personally, I would have
just shot him.

I love dogs, have 3 now and have had dogs all my life, but
I have no use for a dog that will bite or attack people.
They are not a creature you can reason with, they
understand force.