gyming to improve power

Mex

I never said muscle only, 3500 cals to gain muscle and fat. You can gain fat alone, but if you want muscle, some fat will come along as well.


This all depends on how much I am are eating. If I'm eating 6000 calories per day, I bet I can easily put on 5lbs in a week or two. If I'm not eating enough, whether I'm depleted or not, I won't gain weight. No matter what you eat or how hard you train, if you are not eating enough, it is physiologically impossible to gain weight.

gntlmn

If you're riding about 60 to 120 miles a day, as I have been doing lately, it is very easy to eat just a little bit more than you are burning off. If your gain is almost all muscle, the calories extra you consume will seem like nothing extra at all. In other words, with the differences in wind, outdoor temperature (relating to heat loss), speed that you ride, whether you ride hills or not and how much hills are all factors affecting the amount of calories you needed to break even. If you try to estimate these calories, you will come up with a spread. "It will be at least this number of calories burned and no more than this much." This spread will be big enough to hold 5 lbs of muscle very easily, given that muscle is composed of less than half the energy quantity of fat, pound for pound.

Let's just say it's 1,500 KCals per pound. 5*1,500 is 7,500 KCals for a 5 lbs weight gain. This would be just 7 Big Macs in 2 weeks. Do you really think you would notice this much more food intake if you are doing so many miles every day? How can you tell if the extra food is from the workout or from the weight lifting? Clearly, my body sends a very, very strong signal to my hunger mechanism when I lift weights. It's the same signal you might get when you first start riding long distance again after a long layoff, and you want to eat everything in sight when you're done with your ride.

Carrera

I sometimes wonder whether peeking on a bike would prevent me ever returning to some of the heavier weights I lifted five years ago. I'm aware muscle has memory but I wonder if you wold get the full percentage of strength back if you wanted to at a given time.
Conversely, having regained all that strength, would you be able to get back into biking condition as well when you felt like a change.
I also recall that years ago I used to work in a health promotion team and we had a manager who did a combination of powerlifting and bodybuilding. He was a really cool guy and well read in sports nutrition. We also had a team leader from California who was into running. One day we all entered a fun run for charity which involved running for about an hour. I had to laugh since poor Michael the bodybuilder suffered real humiliation and even I beat him in the race. Effectively he came last and crossed the line pouring with sweat. He had 18 inch biceps at the time but that was little advantage to him in the fun run.

tomdavis80

I've been hearing this debate for quite some time and my general opinion concerning weightlifting is about the same as Joe Friel's and Chris Carmichael's that weightlifting is helpful but shouldn't be used in the main portion of training but the majority of it should be done during the Base Period and lighter lifting to maintain that strength gain during the season.

The reason why I think that strength may help with overall cycling performance is because if you are using a lower % of your maximum strength then I would think that it would mean that you would be putting less aerobic load on your system since you would be using less strength and energy. Take for instance if you started out with a maximum strength of perhaps 300 lbs (approx. 135 kg) for one rep and you were able to increase that to 400 (approx. 180 kg) for one rep, it would follow that for your normal aerobic force that you exert on the bike would be (arbitrary number) perhaps 50 lbs of force which would be 17% of your maximum strength but keep that load number constant and it goes down to 12.5% of your maximum strength. It is a drop of 25% of load relative to your body.

Even if you may never improve aerobic performance, the stress put on your muscular system will be significantly less than what it was previously.

About the argument about coaches not revealing their full methods pertaining to training, I will agree with people in the case of Carmichael because his books don't give enough information and are merely advertisements for his coaching facilities so I don't give as much credence to him. But Joe Friel? From what I've read in his "Cyclist's training bible", he gives so much information that he could literally be losing clients to his online coaching products but that behavior, in my mind, is only a testament to his honesty in the book. From what I read in his book, he strikes me as only wanting to help other cyclists become the best they can possibly be.

Thomas Davis

Thomas Davis

Roadie_scum

This argument is logical, but not true. Increasing strength doesn't increase endurance performance. The adaptions that lead to strength are opposed to adaptions for endurance.

ric_stern/RST

they're starting to change their views based on the discussions of myself and andy coggan.




this isn't true. the adaptations that occur for aerobic and strength training are completely different. forces involved during cycling even at very elite levels (i.e., TdF) are very low, such that the average person on the street can meet them (yes, there are exceptions to this rule).

ric

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seeejai

Quick question - I don't disagree with weight training not being useful for endurance riders in strenght terms - in fact it's great, I'll save a small fortune in gym fees!

But - what about for strengthening 'non-cycling' muscles? I've had loads of ITB problems and the physio advised me to do specific exercises to strengthen the muscle at the top of the band. A friend had bad kneecap maltracking problems because of certain muscles being overdeveloped with respect to others, and was advised to strenghten the weaker muscles. Is there any benefit to strengthening these other muscles (sorry, can't remember all the proper terms offhand) to maintain a balance? If my ITB exercises are rubbish, please please suggest a better solution (other than yet more stretching...!)

ric_stern/RST

follow the advice of your physio for these specific exercises.

ric

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Carrera

"The reason why I think that strength may help with overall cycling performance is because if you are using a lower % of your maximum strength then I would think that it would mean that you would be putting less aerobic load on your system since you would be using less strength and energy."

In theory you would expect that a guy who can squat 300 pounds should be able to turn the pedals more easily than a guy who can only squat 100 pounds and, thereby, save effort, not work as hard and go faster. However, I once put this to the test and it doesn't quite work that way. Once I took part in some high-rep squatting with a guy who cycled and was extremely fit but didn't weight train. He was able to equal me around the 40 - 50 rep margin since my own endurance wasn't geared for so many reps. Had I put 300 - 400 pounds on the bar I would have left him behind but we were only using a light load.

Therefore, being able to squat 400 pounds shouldn't help you turn the pedals any easier than a guy who can only squat 100 since so many revolutions are involved over a long period of time.

Another factor is that you can bypass strength in cycling to a degree. I notice that these days I climb hills in a way I can drive the pedals out of the seat using my body weight as opposed to muscle power. If I climb while sitting, however, I can use my leg strength instead but this stresses the knees too much.

So, why squat or do weights?

My case is a little different since I must be the only cyclist who does weight training throughout the season. The reason I do it is I'm convinced that weight-training builds overall power in the body and stresses muscles you can't reach on the bike. For example, squats will strengthen the lower back and bent-rowing will help your pulling power on climbs. I'm also aware it increases testosterone naturally.

Having said that I prefer higher reps and less weight when I'm cycling since I don't seek to gain muscle mass. I view it is as a conditioning facet of my training as opposed to the idea that being stronger makes pedaling easier (which is only the case if you pedal while seated in bigger gears).

I'm convinced the weight-trained cyclist will have certain advantages over a non-weight trained athlete in the long run but this is just my own personal opinion. Plus, I doubt my own system would work for other folks and it goes against the norm of what's recommended.

tomdavis80

You make a valid point, Carrera, but I also think that there are other factors as to why a guy who could squat 300 lbs (135 kg approx.) cannot keep up in the long run, but it is possible and probable that he may be able to produce greater power for perhaps 5 to 20 seconds than you might be able to do which means he would be able to outsprint you. Other factors to consider is the fact that many guys who can squat ungodly amounts of weight does not turn over well to cycling is because they simply don't train for it and two, they may be heavier (more mass means more power needed to sustain a specific speed) and larger (more body area means greater air resistance) so they will definitely run into problems where they cannot sustain those amounts of power but they probably are capable of outsprinting or overpowering most cyclists on an all out sprint with the highest gearing possible for them.

That said, I still think that there IS a benefit for cyclists to weightlift even if it's just to improve the short term power output. I agree that the benefit for endurance is limited because only endurance workouts can improve endurance.

Thomas Davis

ric_stern/RST

only if there's an increase in muscle cross sectional area, and then you have more mass to lug up hill. on the other hand you'd be better off doing some sprint training on your bike, you'll need to do it anyway.

ric

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tomdavis80

I'm going to include some anecdotal evidence about my weightlifting in high school as compared to college that I did a couple years ago. When I was weightlifting in high school, there was an emphasis on improving overall strength rather than trying to gain weight and I remember that during my weightlifting classes, I don't remember gaining much weight then. However, when I went to college (this was before discovering cycling as a sport), I utilized a different method for weightlifting with an emphasis on improving overall mass and I noticed that my weight jumped from about 125 lbs to about 132 lbs.

I think it makes a difference about how you weightlift whether you're putting an emphasize on increased strength or increased mass. If you're looking for increased strength, you're not trying to murder your muscles to the point of muscular failure but trying to do the workout at a different intensity rather than doing a bombing raid on the muscles like one would normally do for bodybuilding.

Thomas Davis

ric_stern/RST

as previously mentioned, if there's no increase in muscle cross sectional area, then the gains are neuromuscular in nature, and only occur at the joint angle and velocity at which they're trained, i.e., they don't transfer to cycling.

ric

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Carrera

Just touching on the fact that muscle mass slows you down. This is quite correct. Yesterday I carried out a moderate cycle ride followed by moderate squats with some leg curls thrown in. Today I went out on my bike again and did some steep hill work in my lowest gear. Guess what? It was harder. Every time I do my weight work I notice I have to work hard for the first day after the session. Having said that, I really get a terrific cycle workout when it happens since I have to sweat more.
You know, it's unconventional but I sense I may get some benefit out of cycling and carrying a bit of muscle mass at the same time. You hear of guys who cycle in the wind and claim they get a terrific workout since it makes cycling so much harder. It can be the same when you put muscle on -like cycling agianst resistance. Imagine how much harder your lungs have to work when you're carrying a touch more weight out of season. Assuming you can drop muscle easily, consider how easy it will be to cycle without the added mass when you decide to peak? All you need to do is be able to lose that added mass when you're ready to max out on the bike.
Of course, this wouldn't work for many people since there are guys who simply can't shake the mass off once they put it on via weights.
Having said that, despite the fact I still do my gym work, people keep telling me how amazed they are at my weight loss. I reckon I must have lost 28 pounds over the last few months, simply by riding 3 - 4 hours at a time. I'm too skinny at present to lift anything heavy like I used to but I still lift moderately if I can squeeze it in my time schedule.
I think the best exercises are squats (higher reps), power cleans (moderate reps), bent rows and chins (for pulling). Most cyclists only do weights in the Winter so my own approach would be frowned on even by pro-weight coaches.