gyming to improve power

Originally Posted by mac_220

I haven't had time to read every message in the thread yet and am not sure if this aspect has been raised yet. But here goes:



I'm not a sports scientist however, I'm a physicist and i think you need to think a bit more about the above equation your using and what you are extrapalating from them. I don't think this equation gives you an accurate reflection of the forces required to turn the pedals.

Looking at average force really gives you a very distorted view of what will really be happening during a cycle of the pedal.

Constant force cannot to be applied to the pedals. due to the difference in muscles required to complete the turning motion. secondly, you have to factor in the extra force required to lift the rising leg and how effectively the legs is lifted.

Most importantly there is only a small portion of the complete revolution where the leg can appy the full force, guessing i would say that between 1 and 5 o'clock on the pedal cycle. During this sector of the pedal cycle i would suggest that the force applied to the pedals is much greater that the forces or equilent weight stated during this thread.

To state the equation required to understand the force, power applied to a pedal during a complete revolution "is simple" shows a fundemental misunderstanding of the concepts of physics.

It is for these reasons that i think a lot of the comments about force, weight in this thread are fundementally floored.

If you were to plot force against rotation angle (0-360 degress) i would expect to see a bell shaped curce with the maximum (different to full force stated earlier)force being applied for a between 2 and 4 o'clock. the dreased sector is due to the time it take for the muscle to acheive full force, which i know nothing about, however i do know that it is not possibe to apply force instantly

If you were to make a very simplistic calculation starting at 12 o'clock for one leg the quessed average of max force or aofm me be applied as follows:
12-1 medium force for 30 degrees ~aofm 20%
1-2 increasing force for 30 degrees ~aofm 70%
2-4 Max force is applied for 60 degrees ~aofm 100%
4-5 decreasing force for 30 degrees ~aofm 70%
5-7 minimal force for 60 degrees ~aofm 30%
7-12 a bit more tricky depending on how effectively the cyclist moves the leg upwards this could, if ineffective this could actually be a force acting in the opersite direction, requiring the other leg to increase force to counter the weight of the leg, which i imagine must weigh a lot. Lets assume ~aofm minus10% to +30%

Another factor that should be accounted for is the ivariance of angular velocity, during the pedal cycle 12 and 6 o'clock. this cannot be completely connstant, however it may not be a significant factor.

Efficiency of the power transmission to the power measureing devices has not been factored into the Equation. A variance factor which defines the effieciency of which power from the leg is tranfered during pedal cycle. which are dependant upon the direction the forces are being applied to the multiple pivots within the transmission of the bike. The force should be spilt to understand which direction they are applied and how effiecently the force is converted to turning motion and how much force is lost as it is transfered through each section of the mechanism

when lifting free weights there is no loss of power due to force transfer between systems. A significant amount of force will be lost due to the mechanical mechanism, the bike.

i would guess the force would actually be applied for a very short sector of the pedal revolution. Which means that the max force exerted would be much higher than the average force. which would mean that when this force was converted into mass or weight it would be significantly higher than those suggested during this thread. Exspecially when riding against a high resistance such as wind resistance or when climbing as the both resting forces will be require the cyclist to apply a much higher max force to keep the momentum during the dead spots. this can be expereicenced when riding a very steep hill 1/3 or 1/4. the bike drastically Decelerates at these points in the pedal stroke.

Conclusion: Do some research which quantifies the max force applied to the pedals during a revolution in different situations climbing, time trialling sprinting etc.

As i stated i do not know about the effects of weight training on cycling performance, how ever equating euqivilent 25 KG of force being required by an elite cyclist seems wrong to me

Regards,

Mark

Originally Posted by closesupport

Save your brain, http://www.analyticcycling.com/Topics.html here its done for you, best info site for cadenance and power... etc.....

Originally Posted by velomanct

All I know is that weight lifting makes your muscles stronger and bigger, which improves sprint power, and that's all I care about.

Originally Posted by closesupport

Save your brain, http://www.analyticcycling.com/Topics.html here its done for you, best info site for cadenance and power... etc.....

Originally Posted by n crowley

Excellent site and useful for comparison purposes but like yourself when it
comes to cycling nobody uses their brain, all rely on cycling scripture and
tradition, yet nobody knows the basis of all this teaching. The most
important half of bicycling biomechanics lies unresearched both from the
performance and medical aspect.

Originally Posted by Roadie_scum

What, exactly, remains unresearched?

Originally Posted by Roadie_scum

What, exactly, remains unresearched?

Originally Posted by n crowley

You could start with the introduction of upper body muscles into seated
competitive cycling and it will open the door to a whole new area of research.

Originally Posted by lanierb

I've read most of this thread and have a question for the experts that is related to the discussion. When I take time off in the winter I usually lose a few pounds, which comes back when I start training again in the spring. I always attributed this to losing and then gaining back leg muscle. However, if strength really plays no role in cycling, does that contradict my theory or not? Does it take more muscle mass to have more endurance? And, if not, why do I gain weight when I train? (I have pretty low body fat either way.) The reason I ask is that, if it's not helping me I'd like to keep it from happening!

Originally Posted by closesupport

IT PROBALY IS DUE TO ATROPHY. THATS MUSCLE WASTING SINCE THE MUSCLE ISN'T BEING REQUIRED, ITS STILL THERE, OR RATHER THE STORAGE POTENTIAL IS STILL THERE.

IF YOU WHERE TO REQUIRE FUEL FOR A 10 MILE JOURNEY IN A CAR YOU WOULDN'T PUT 100MILES WORTH OF FUEL INIT, CAUSE IT AIN'T REQUIRED. OUR MUSCLE GROUPS ARE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. IF WE CALL UPON FUEL STORES REQUIRING LARGE AMOUNTS OF FUEL THEN THE BODY WILL STORE THIS FOR THE NEXT POSSIBLE JOURNEY. THE MORE REGULAR YOU CALL UPON THIS FUEL STORE, THE BODY GETS TRAINED "IF YOU LIKE" TO STORING THAT FUEL SOURCE, THEN WHEN WE DON'T CALL UPON IT WE GO THROUGH DE-TRAINING WHICH LEADS TO MUSCLE LOSS, SINCE MUSCLE FUEL STORES AREN'T REQUIRED.

BUT WHEN YOU START TRAINING AGAIN AND THE MUSCLE GROUPS ARE CALLED UPON. THEN MORE POTENTIAL ENERGY IS STORED IN AND AROUND THE MUSCLE GROUPS THAT ARE BEING CALLED UPON AGAIN. THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT UNFORTUNATELY, SO RETAINING SOME KIND OF MUSCULAR WORK REQUIRING A SIMILAR AMOUNT OF ENERGY, WEATHER AEROBIC OR ANOEROBIC WILL PREVENT ATROPHY.

Originally Posted by steve

I know this is way off topic.....but your cApS key seems to be stuck

cheers

Originally Posted by fabiosav

Steve Fleck, Ph.D., former sports physiologist in charge of strength training research in the division of sports medicine at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, states that this study shows, "A higher lactate threshold means that an athlete can ride at a higher intensity before fatigue sets in and causes a reduction in cycling speed. Their findings indicate that strength training improves endurance performance independently of changes in oxygen consumption. This improvement appears to be related to increases in lactate threshold and increased leg strength." Put simply, Fleck is stating that endurance training and strength training are not mutually exclusive. Both may be needed for improved performance.


Thoughts Ric?