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20-05.-2004, 08:19 AM
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#91 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
On Wed, 19 May 2004 18:54:34 -0400, Badger_South <Badger@South.net>
wrote: >If you just must have your soda, then dilute it to 1/8th of >the strength and put the rest away. Oy! Diluted soda? Ick! Luckily for me (calorie-wise, anyway), my preferred soda is Diet Pepsi. No calories, but it will probably cause cancer -- of course, so will anything else, everything else, or even nothing. Maybe somebody who likes hi-test soda could dilute it with it's diet companion; at least the carbonation will be the same. -- Rick Onanian |
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20-05.-2004, 08:19 AM
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#92 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
On Wed, 19 May 2004 18:37:35 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com>
wrote: >You're right too. However, DRS's point, if I may, is that >diet is most important in weight loss. The resistance >training really should be second after dieting because it >1) builds muscle and 2) allows you to keep as much muscle >mass as possible while losing. Cardio is useful for other >health benefits, but if you do too much of it you can >actually lose muscle mass, in addtion to fat. The result of >too much of that is that one can become a "skinny fat >person". A skinny fat person will end up really screwed >because the metabolism will be lower, meaning that you'll >have to eat less to maintain weight, compared to the same >size person with a greater percentage of muscle mass. But >it is certainly true that if you do another cycling and >control eating, your can burn calories and lose weight >effectively. I personally would not call that optimal >weight loss because too much of it may come from muscle >mass rather than fat. > Well-put. As another data point, I had a lot of muscle, but had gotten overweight as a result of a year-long consulting job where I virtually lived in the basment PC room at my house coding for 10 hours a day. When I went LC, I had a hip injury so I couldn't work out. I was able to lose more than 40-50lbs on diet alone in about 6-8 months on LC, but I really -did- the diet to the max, stayed on plan and took my supps and oils. Then at the lower weight I was able to exercise and was not ashamed of showing up at the gym <g>. But had I been aware of what your comments address more overtly at the time (I knew but didn't correlate), I would have done some kind of working out at the same time, even if it was just a 15" machine circuit. It really keeps you from going into 'starvation mode', and surprisingly it only takes getting your pulse up and getting sweaty 4-5 times a week. Great discussion today, youse guys, Roger and DRS. Thanks for all your posts!!! -B |
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20-05.-2004, 08:19 AM
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#93 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
Roger Zoul wrote:
> Terry Morse wrote: > :: > :: FWIW, you don't have to go anaerobic to deplete your > :: muscle glycogen. Simply riding at a lower cadence with > :: the same power output will accelerate the depletion > :: rate. Glycogen usage is tied to muscle effort. > > Er, riding at a lower cadence with high power output (like > going uphill in a high gear or going very fast on a flat > in high gear) is the same thing as going anaerobic. > Anaerobic activity is what uses sugar for fuel. A technically correct statement, but not very useful. "Going anaerobic" to a cyclist means getting your heart rate above the lactate threshold, not pushing a big gear. -- terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/ |
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20-05.-2004, 08:19 AM
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#94 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
Roger Zoul wrote:
> Well, most who follow a LC woe are trying to lose weight > (fat). From a practical POV, they limit carbs and not > anything else. And this fact alone is sufficient to explain the weight loss: by limiting carbohydrates, they effectively limit calories. > At a certain point, after having lost a certain amount of > weight, it does become necessary to limit calories. Probably because the dieting has reduced their lean body mass. Most diets reduce lean body mass and thus metabolic rate, and require further reductions in food consumption. > The reason this point needs to be made is because for some > 20 to 30 years in the US it has been claimed that eating > fat make syou fat. Excessive calorie intake makes you fat. > So as long as one isn't eating too many calories, there is > no need to explicitly limit fat (assuming one is getting > adequate protein). True enough, although since fat is so energy dense, it's really easy to get too many calories with fatty foods. -- terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/ |
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20-05.-2004, 08:38 AM
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#95 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
Terry Morse wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: Terry Morse wrote: ::::: ::::: FWIW, you don't have to go anaerobic to deplete your ::::: muscle glycogen. Simply riding at a lower cadence with ::::: the same power output will accelerate the depletion ::::: rate. Glycogen usage is tied to muscle effort. ::: ::: Er, riding at a lower cadence with high power ::: output (like going uphill in a high gear or going ::: very fast on a flat in high gear) is the same thing ::: as going anaerobic. Anaerobic activity is what uses ::: sugar for fuel. :: :: A technically correct statement, but not very useful. :: "Going anaerobic" to a cyclist means getting your heart :: rate above the lactate threshold, not pushing a big gear. True, but I was just trying to give an example...I do my best not to push big gears...but I've only been riding since last September and had to suffer the winter layoff. |
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20-05.-2004, 08:38 AM
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#96 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
Badger_South wrote:
:: On Wed, 19 May 2004 15:36:03 -0400, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: :: ::: No, what I described is the CKD...you do it to refill my ::: glycogen so that you can train harder the next week ::: (assuming you're lifting). The TKD is where you take ::: much smaller amounts of carbs (say 50 g) either pre or ::: post (or both) workout. The former is usually much ::: harder to do well and results in a lot of water-weight ::: gain. The latter is much easier to do, and usually ::: doesn't land you with 10 lbs of water weight, but it is ::: not as much fun. On a CKD you want to limit fat intake ::: as well. :: :: Ah, right you are. I stand corrected. I use a version of :: the TKD, but wasn't paying attention as you described the :: Cyclical Ketogenic Diet. I think I would find that harder :: to do, but I'm WAGing. ;-) :: ::::: If you can do this, very good. I on the other hand ::::: have to keep a much tighter reign on my carb intake. ::::: One slice of pizza and I know I risk 'falling off the ::::: wagon'. It's more a mental thing, and I know that's ::::: atypical. It does allow me to foist a smug and ::::: superior attitude upon all the weak and slovenly ppl ::::: around me though. (LOL, sarcasm meter pegging out to ::::: the max). ::: :::  Lots of people are you like. I can, however, do a::: :CKD. I've ::: done enough of them to be able to get right back on ::: track the following monday. The hard part for me is ::: keeping the CKD clean - that is, limiting the fat intake ::: while getting the carbs and protein. :: :: Ah so. What would a typical weekend menu under your CKD :: regime? Bread, rice, potatoes, SF cookies made from oats, baked chips, pancakes (no butter on any of that)...try to limit table sugar and fruit sugar as well as fat (what fats you do get you'd like to be EFAs). You want starches that metabolize to glucose. You also get sufficient protein. |
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20-05.-2004, 08:58 AM
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#97 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:02:17 -0400, Rick Onanian <spamsink@cox.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 May 2004 18:54:34 -0400, Badger_South ><Badger@South.net> wrote: >>If you just must have your soda, then dilute it to 1/8th >>of the strength and put the rest away. > >Oy! Diluted soda? Ick! > >Luckily for me (calorie-wise, anyway), my preferred soda is >Diet Pepsi. No calories, but it will probably cause cancer >-- of course, so will anything else, everything else, or >even nothing. > >Maybe somebody who likes hi-test soda could dilute it >with it's diet companion; at least the carbonation will >be the same. Yeah, it's ickky. Your idea sounds good/better. I drink Diet Ginger Ale, one of the ones with very little if any after-taste, IMO. Diet Dr Pepper is probably equal or better, but I always feel bloated if I drink more than half a can of that. Wonder if they'll come out with a 'splenda' version. Despite the chlorine warnings that stuff is pretty good. Canadians have been drinking it for years. OTOH, I now have three of those funny hats with the fold down ear flaps. It's puzzling. -B |
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20-05.-2004, 09:00 AM
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#98 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
news:loona0l7outgq97ev07smi52ji1fcjoe9q@4ax.com... > On Wed, 19 May 2004 14:45:04 -0700, "GaryG" > <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote: > > >> What a shameless plug!! Perhaps I could be one of> >> your case studies? Send me a non-expiring version, and > >> then use my story! > > I don't think it was a 'shameless' plug since GG prefaced > that portion of his post with a <plug> indicator. > > >> > > > >Well, as they say, "You can't Sell what you don't > >Tell". :-) > > > >As for case studies, I've got my own...2 kids, mortgage, > >hair (what hair?). > >And I'm at my lowest weight in 15 years (yeah!). > > > >Sorry, but I can't afford to give it away and the price > >(IMO) is pretty reasonable - currently, $25. But, if you > >download the trial version and provide me with some > >useful feedback (bug reports, suggestions, etc.), I'll > >send you a code for $5 off. Fair enough? > > Very nice of you. > > Trying to come across as sincere, but what does your > software do that I couldn't do in a simple XL spreadsheet. > My graphs look the same as yours. Are there additional > indicators, or predictors that are not shown on the page? > > Some ppl can't do XL, so there's that. > > Best, > > -B > Well, for one thing, it's a lot *prettier* than Excel <g>. Seriously, there's probably nothing you can't do in Excel that WeightWare does, but for most folks it's easier to use a dedicated application. In addition, it's easier to play around with the data - changing From and To dates, for instance, to see how your weight has changed over time. The default "Calendar" view (http://www.shastasoftware.com/Weigh...CalendarTab.htm ) would be difficult to reproduce in Excel, and allows you to see your weekly and monthly progress at a glance. And, some of the calculations that WeightWare does automatically would be a challenge to program in Excel - the "Moving Average" graph uses an exponentially smoothed moving average, and the "30 Day Calorie Trend" graph (http://www.shastasoftware.com/WeightWare/graphs.htm ) calculates the trend for the 30 days preceeding each day in the range using linear regression. WeightWare also includes tools for analyzing your Body Mass Index and comparing yours against US averages, tools to set appropriate weight goals for yourself and others, and tools for estimating your body fat percentage. It also tracks other key health data, including resting heart rate, blood pressure, body fat percentage, amount of sleep, how you're feeling, body measurements, and various lab tests (cholesterol, PSA, blood glucose, etc.). Hope I've answered your questions, and thanks for asking! GG http://www.WeightWare.com Your Weight and Health Diary |
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20-05.-2004, 09:00 AM
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#99 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
Terry Morse wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: Well, most who follow a LC woe are trying to lose weight ::: (fat). From a practical POV, they limit carbs and not ::: anything else. :: :: And this fact alone is sufficient to explain the weight :: loss: by limiting carbohydrates, they effectively limit :: calories. :: ::: At a certain point, after having lost a certain amount ::: of weight, it does become necessary to limit calories. :: :: Probably because the dieting has reduced their lean body :: mass. Most diets reduce lean body mass and thus metabolic :: rate, and require further reductions in food consumption. I'm certain that's true for a lot of people...however, I don't think it's true in my case....if anything, I've added LBM since going LC...since I weight train for hypertrophy and I started before I'd lost too much weight. But the sheer fact that I lug around 130 lbs less than I did before means that moving takes less energy, so I have to further restrict intake now. :: ::: The reason this point needs to be made is because for ::: some 20 to 30 years in the US it has been claimed that ::: eating fat make syou fat. Excessive calorie intake makes ::: you fat. So as long as one isn't eating too many ::: calories, there is no need to explicitly limit fat ::: (assuming one is getting adequate protein). :: :: True enough, although since fat is so energy dense, it's :: really easy to get too many calories with fatty foods. Very definitely. Atkins definitely did his readers a disservice by leading them to believe they'd never have to count calories. |
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20-05.-2004, 09:20 AM
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#100 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:31:10 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com>
wrote: >:: Ah so. What would a typical weekend menu under your CKD >:: regime? > >Bread, rice, potatoes, SF cookies made from oats, baked >chips, pancakes (no butter on any of that)...try to limit >table sugar and fruit sugar as well as fat (what fats you >do get you'd like to be EFAs). You want starches that >metabolize to glucose. You also get sufficient protein. So I bet you co-schedule a lo-o-ng ride to go with all this good stuff, eh? ;-D Do you use a butter sub on the potatoes, or something else. I like the 'baked chips' My wife and daughter make those, but I wonder about what oil, if any to use, or does baking preclude that? Have you tried whole wheat home-made pizza crust with tomato and mushrooms? (no cheese). Once I get to goal again, I might try the CKD. It could work as a boost to the long term 'stickability' of the LC-WOE. In addition if I schedule the long ride in tandem it could prevent getting cravings, I'm thinking. Best, -B |
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20-05.-2004, 09:38 AM
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#101 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
On Wed, 19 May 2004 16:58:18 -0700, "GaryG"
<garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote: >default "Calendar" view >(http://www.shastasoftware.com/Weigh...CalendarTab.htm ) >would be difficult to reproduce in Excel, and allows you to >see your weekly and monthly progress at a glance. It -is- pretty. I didnt' realize there were more tabs. Nice. I'm going to go ahead and download. My brother, who is less PC savvy might get a kick outta it. You coding in VB, or C++? -B |
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20-05.-2004, 09:38 AM
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#102 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
news:f4una0lluvopp8ddss5hf2lnqor8rshji4@4ax.com... > On Wed, 19 May 2004 16:58:18 -0700, "GaryG" > <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote: > > >default "Calendar" view (http://www.shastasoftware.com/W- > >eightWare/CalendarTab.htm ) would be difficult to > >reproduce in Excel, and allows you to see your weekly and > >monthly progress at a glance. > > It -is- pretty. I didnt' realize there were more tabs. > Nice. I'm going to go ahead and download. My brother, who > is less PC savvy might get a kick outta it. > > You coding in VB, or C++? > > -B > Old school <g> - VB I've always preferred higher-level "wordy" languages that result in more-or-less human readable code (I was a COBOL programmer earlier in my career). GG http://www.WeightWare.com Your Weight and Health Diary |
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20-05.-2004, 10:42 AM
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#103 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
Badger_South wrote:
:: On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:31:10 -0400, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: :: ::::: Ah so. What would a typical weekend menu under your ::::: CKD regime? ::: ::: Bread, rice, potatoes, SF cookies made from oats, baked ::: chips, pancakes (no butter on any of that)...try to ::: limit table sugar and fruit sugar as well as fat (what ::: fats you do get you'd like to be EFAs). You want ::: starches that metabolize to glucose. You also get ::: sufficient protein. :: :: So I bet you co-schedule a lo-o-ng ride to go with all :: this good stuff, eh? Yep...experimentation is key, however. Also, before biking and when doing weight training and stationary biking, I would do a CKD one weekend per month...the last one. ;-D Do you use a butter sub on the potatoes, or something :: else. No, what I do is cook up some lean meat -- ground turkey breast, pork...then cut up some onions (not a lot), bell peppers, seasoning, etc, and dump that on top of the potato or the rice (or pasta)....then the dry starchy food goes down much easier. you could even use tomato sauce, too. I like the 'baked chips' My wife and daughter make those, but :: I wonder about what oil, if any to use, or does baking :: preclude that? I don't right know, but they are lower in fat than fried ones...it's not perfect, so you do get some fat. :: :: Have you tried whole wheat home-made pizza crust with :: tomato and mushrooms? (no cheese). No, but that would be an excellent idea...thanks... :: :: Once I get to goal again, I might try the CKD. It could :: work as a boost to the long term 'stickability' of the :: LC-WOE. In addition if I schedule the long ride in tandem :: it could prevent getting cravings, I'm thinking. The only time I get cravings is on the days when I'm eating carbs...after a night of no eating, I get no cravings the next day....so I go back to strict LCing and have no problems....but, as you know, it is a YMMV kind of thing.... The occasional CKD keeps me very happy to do LC the rest of the time. Sometimes I will fast the day after a CKD to get back into BDK quicker, too. |
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20-05.-2004, 11:19 AM
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#104 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
news:155na011cgkcn2vr54rl6iu4la11us3h1p@4ax.com... > On Wed, 19 May 2004 10:45:12 -0400, "psycholist" > <technico@wctel.net> wrote: > > >Most important of all is diet. Fat is fat. Keep it to a > >minimum. I had a > >cholestrol problem a couple of years ago (despite a ton > >of riding). I simply stopped eating anything that had any > >cholesterol at all. I lost 12 > >pounds in 6 weeks and lowered my cholestrol 60 points. > >Now I watch that AND > >saturated fat to keep losing weight. > > > >Good luck! > > > >Bob C. > > Can you give an example of foods that you stopped eating, > and their cholesterol content? This is pretty interesting. > > Did you continue the 'no cholesterol' diet for longer than > the 6 weeks, or was that a temporary measure to bring your > weight down? > > -B > I used to believe that, as much as I rode, I could eat whatever I wanted. So I did. When my cholestrol problem was diagnosed, the solution was easy. I quit having a half a stick of butter on my popcorn every night. I stopped having a half a jar of blue cheese dressing on my salads several times a week. I stopped eating bacon altogether. I stopped eating eggs altogether. I started eating oatmeal and low-fat everything. I started reading labels and, if it had any cholestrol at all, I passed. I remember really getting ticked off when I went to Chic Fil A and ordered their most basic chicken sandwich ... a piece of baked chicken on a piece of bread with no breading or anything (but a pickle). Then I learned after I ate it that they brushed butter on the inside of the bread. I went nuts! Why would they do that? Clearly it's a menu item that nobody in their right mind would order unless they were on some sort of extreme diet and THEY PUT BUTTER ON IT!!!????!!! Anyway, you get the idea how I made that work and lost a lot of weight. Now I'm more moderate. I'll have a little butter. But I eat turkey bacon, not real bacon. I eat yogurt, not ice cream. I just make better choices all the way around. I've gone from a total cholestrol of 255 (about 18 months ago) down to the latest which was 173 last week. I haven't taken any drugs to achieve this. I was 167 lbs back then and I'm about 152 now. I'm pretty fit for 48 years old. Bob C. |
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20-05.-2004, 11:38 AM
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#105 |
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Re: 3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?
Rick Onanian wrote:
:: On Wed, 19 May 2004 10:41:59 -0400, "Roger Zoul" :: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote: ::: Rick Onanian wrote: ::::: He's a healthy guy who has fun exercising. ::: ::: A fit guy who has fun exercising. Health != fit. :: :: I think he's probably healthy too. He didn't say he feels :: bad...just that he looks bad. Probably...but you never know...sometimes one can have health problems and not feel bad, ie. high blood pressure... :: ::::: I'm younger and smaller than you, and I can barely ::::: survive a 3000 calorie day. I'm a bit abnormal for ::::: that, I guess. ::: ::: Most people don't need any where near 3000 kcals ::: per day. :: :: Well, by "survive" I meant "not commit suicide". I'm :: absolutely miserable below 3000 calories in a given day. Wow...I routinely eat less than 200 calories per day and I weigh 235.... luckly you. :: :::::: She also suggested riding easy first thing in the :::::: morning BEFORE breakfast so the body has to switch to :::::: fat because the glycogen stores will be low (sound :::::: like a recipe for the BONK to me). ::::: ::::: Try it, if you can, and figure out how far you can go ::::: before bonking. Do only that much, then gradually ::::: raise it up. This will certainly get your body running ::::: well for the rest of your day, too. ::: ::: More nonsense. I follow a low-carb diet...that means I'm ::: always low on glycogen. Yet, I always ride in the ::: morning with only some coffee in me. Unless he is ::: pushing his limits and actually exercising ::: anaerobically, he won't bonk out. :: :: So you're saying he won't bonk. How does that make :: nonsense of my suggestion to ride as much as possible? No, actually, I was refering to the automatic assumption of bonking...I supposed if he did 70 miles it is possible... :: :: If bonking can only happen when riding anaerobically, :: does that mean that by riding slowly, anybody could ride :: thousands of consecutive miles with only water, without :: getting to a point of feeling energy-less? probably not...but if you ride slowly enough, bonking certainly gets delayed... :: ::::: 1. CaloriesIn < CaloriesOut == NetLoss. This must ::::: happen in time, even given the 'starvation-mode' ::::: reaction of saving fat. Try really counting ::::: calories in and out for a week and see what you ::::: get; 10 months of insufficient calories should lose ::::: more than 4 pounds. ::: ::: Which means it was not 10 months of insufficient ::: calories. :: :: That wasn't obvious in what I said? That comment about starvation mode seems to imply that if you undereat by too much, you don't lose... :: ::::: 2. Health != weight. You're probably pretty damned ::::: healthy from all that riding, regardless of your ::::: weight. ::: ::: Health!=fit!= weight. ::: ::: He's fit (bicycle fit) for sure. I can't comment on his ::: health since there's not my info here on that. :: :: Agreed, but I suspect that all the riding has resulted in :: health, especially since he didn't say he had any health :: problems. probably....he's obviously not in terrible health... :: ::::: those 40 pounds back. I am at my optimum weight, books ::::: and charts and doctors be damned. ::: ::: True, to an extent. If he has a belly then perhaps ::: losing some of it might help him ride even better. Let's ::: face it, lugging around fat is going to slow you down. :: :: Only uphill. It's got practically no effect on flat, and :: provides a great gravity assist downhill, as well as a :: more aerodynamic shape. Really? I would have thought that on a flat weight still makes some difference, just not as much as going uphill. And down hill (and on flat), you still have wind resistance due to surface area due to being big. Is that not so? I know you'll get the gravity assist downhil, though, since I get that myself and catch up with smaller guys... |
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