3000 miles in 10 months... so Why am I still fat?

Ian G Batten

In article <40AB1563.83A1B9D9@quadratec-software.com>,
Elisa Francesca Roselli <Elisa.Francesca.Roselli@quadratec-software.com> wrote:
> Perhaps sit-ups would do the belly trick?

They won't. They willimprove the muscles, but will not
reduce the amount of fat (modulo their calories burnt while
doing them, which are negligible).

ian

Denver C. Fox

I too am always trying to lose some of those pounds. I
have your same body type. As you get older, it gets
harder! (I am 64 yo)

Some general suggestions:

1. Do weight bearing exercises. I do a lot of free weights
and machines - several hours a week. The muscle will
make you look and feel better, and muscle will burn
more calories.

2. Your friend is not correct in how many calories you need
everyday. I don't know where she got those figures. Some
charts show about 35 calories burned per mile. If you
are riding 100 miles per week, and everything else stays
the same, you might lose a pound per week from exercise.
However, the exercise may make you hungrier and you can
easily offset that 3500 calories burned by biking by
increased eating.

3. Eat several small meals per day - nutritious food. Whole
grains, fruits, veggies, lean meats. Small portions,
about the size of your fist. IMHO, the research on
Atkins style diets as to long term effects is still not
resolved. However, the South Beach or the Zone diet are
much more moderate, while incorporating some of the
Atkins features.

Extensive bicycling can be a factor in developing
osteoporosis. Walking, weight lifting and other weight-
bearing activities can help to prevent the osteo.

Good luck.

http://members.aol.com/foxcondorsrvtns (Colorado
rental condo)

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox (Family Web Page)

Rick Onanian

On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:16:03 -0600, "Doug Cook"
<dougconsult@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Fast forward to last July... Married, two kids, mortgage,
>no hair, sedentary, 279lbs.
>
>Sick of that fat man in the mirror, I bought some XXL
>cycling clothes, dusted off and tuned up my old Trek, and
>started riding again. Now 10 months and close to 3000 miles
>later... I still weigh 274! I mean... come on! 3000 miles
>for 5 pounds?!

No. 3000 miles for good physical and spiritual health.

>My fitness level has increased tremendously. I use to
>struggle on 10 mile rides. Now I do at least 3-4 weekday
>rides of 15-30 miles each and one weekend ride for 50-70
>miles - all solo. My computer puts my average speed for
>these rides between 16-18mph depending upon the particular
>ups&downs of the ride. My HRM says my average rate is
>usually right about 75% of max (although that can vary,
>usually on the high side, when the ride has climbing). I
>feel lean and mean while I ride,

This tells the story well. I wish I was as fast as you. I
did that kind of speed yesterday, for a short group
ride...and that's a new personal record.

> but when I get home I wonder who that fat guy in the
> mirror is!

He's a healthy guy who has fun exercising.

>I don't diet per se, but I do eat sensibly. The days that
>I've tracked my caloric intake it's usually right between
>2500 - 3000. One friend who is a "wellness" expert suggests
>I'm not eating *ENOUGH*. Although she readily

I'm younger and smaller than you, and I can barely survive a
3000 calorie day. I'm a bit abnormal for that, I guess.

>admits she doesn't specialize in athletes ("slovenly couch
>potato" is how she describes her typical client), she says
>that with my activity level my BMR is 5300... as she
>explained it that's the number of calories needed to just
>maintain my weight! Therefore she thinks my body thinks
>it's being

5300 sounds strong; but she could be right. 2500 to 3000
certainly sounds insufficient; the weight should fly off,
except...well, see what I say at the end regarding
optimum weight..

>starved and refuses to let go of the fat. She thinks by
>eating MORE the body will move away from this starvation
>reflex and start shedding pounds.

Possible. I've heard such before.

>She also suggested riding easy first thing in the morning
>BEFORE breakfast so the body has to switch to fat because
>the glycogen stores will be low (sound like a recipe for
>the BONK to me).

Try it, if you can, and figure out how far you can go before
bonking. Do only that much, then gradually raise it up. This
will certainly get your body running well for the rest of
your day, too.

You might also try other strategies, such as rides where you
are insufficiently fueled, but not completely starved; this
would be under the heading of "using a little glycogen to
burn a lot of fat".

>Well, I tried to eat 4000 calories today and about died! I
>felt horrible, stuffed, tired, etc. I tried riding with
>just water (no sport drink), and found myself craving sugar
>after the ride.

Sounds like me when below 4000 calories per day.

>Any experts lurking out there that would like to comment?
>Are there any

Just self-proclaimed demi-experts.

>Any thoughts would be appreciated.

1. CaloriesIn < CaloriesOut == NetLoss. This must happen in
time, even given the 'starvation-mode' reaction of saving
fat. Try really counting calories in and out for a week
and see what you get; 10 months of insufficient calories
should lose more than 4 pounds.

2. Health != weight. You're probably pretty damned healthy
from all that riding, regardless of your weight.

3. Your body may just be programmed for this weight at this
age. If this is your body's preferred weight, who are you
to argue with your body? Listen to your body!

A couple years ago, I dieted and rode (mostly dieted;
couldn't ride while feeling so hungry) some 40 pounds away,
putting me at the top of the recommended weight range. I
felt terrible. I don't know if I was healthy, but I sure
didn't feel so until I slowly got most of those 40 pounds
back. I am at my optimum weight, books and charts and
doctors be damned.

Oh, and that said, here's one other thing: See the damned
doctors! Not just your friend; go to a general
practitioner to find out if something is _wrong_ with you,
maybe a disease. Let the GP recommend anybody he thinks
you should see.
--
Rick Onanian

Badger_south

On Wed, 19 May 2004 11:01:07 GMT, "curt" <nospam@verizon.net> wrote:

>I would hardly call low carbohydrate diets a fad. They have
>been around since the 50's that I know of. They are just in
>the news a lot because people have wised up. A low carb
>diet is much more than any fad. It actually works.

One thing to mention... There's a 'trick' that has to be
mastered for many to adopt a low carb lifestyle. For me
it was this:

1. remove all obvious carbs from the house. That's right, if
it's got sugar, pasta, rice, potatoes, bread, cereal in
it, put it in a box and give it to the neighbors.
2. everyone in the family has to be on the diet, b/c if
someone brings in a loaf of bread on day three you're
going to eat it.
3. steel yourself for approximately 7 to 10 days to eat only
protein. Since there's nothing else in the house it's
pretty easy.
4. pre-prepare several meals ahead of time so that if you're
tempted to cheat or go off the diet (and you will be) you
can go to the fridge and find a baggie filled with chunks
of pre-cooked ribeye, or some delicious pre-fried
sausage, or chunks of turkey or ham and pop them in the
'wave to head off the pangs. When you make your meals,
just cook up twice what you need each time and put half
in the baggies/tupperware. In a few days you'll have a
significant reservoir.
5. have several strategies pre-planned for when you get
the urge to cheat. If you just -have- to have sugar,
then eat some fruit, but stay away from apples,
they're carb dense. Some examples are: drink several
glasses of water, perhaps flavored with a bit of lemon
juice. Take a tablespoon of this http://www.naturalhe-
althconsult.com/Monographs/flax.html. For many ppl it
will cut the cravings.
6. if you slip and re-glycogenize your liver you may have to
start over, but you can be back in BDK (benign dietary
ketosis) in a couple days.
7. You -must- read the book, either atkins or eades so that
you understand the process of how insulin plus carbs adds
the nutrients into your fat cells. Much of the info is
not quite true, but the core is true. Ultimately you lose
the weight b/c of cutting calories, but on LC this trick
will get you there and keep you there without feeling
deprived and 'when can I quit this diet'.
8. once you do this diet you must continue with restricted
carbs. If you go off you will gain back all the weight
and more and the fat will be nastier. Some ppl can do
it twice but it's far less effective the second or
third time.

After you pass day 10 you'll discover you no longer have
any desire to eat carbs, i.e., chips, pretzels, potatoes,
pizza, pasta. For me this was the benefit of the diet.
After this point cutting calories wasn't difficult b/c my
appetite was significantly reduced. I've survived for
several days in a row eating small portions of steak,
burger, or turkey twice a day as the fat came off and
actually felt like a million bucks.

I've only known one person who was able to get through the
'induction' period, as this carb restricting is called
without clearing out the house and getting everyone on the
diet. Many people start the induction phase, but for some
reason slip - a party at work, mom brings over cookies, etc.
It may take up to 10 attempts, but keep trying.

As a humorous side note, moms are really funny during
induction. Mine kept trying to give me carb dense meals and
asking if it was OK for me to have
it. 'honey, can you eat a bowl of sweet potatoes? How about
a slice of pie?' I'm sure most LC dieters have such
tales to add. It's a hoot.

HTH,

-B

Rick Onanian

On Tue, 18 May 2004 23:00:10 -0600, "Doug Cook"
<dougconsult@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Chest and butt look normal... just a big fat gut in front.
>I've thought
...
>I've read the thread about the fat fraud, but I am fat.
>I've got this big inner tube around my middle that
>interferes with getting into a nice aero position, puts
>unnecessary stress on my butt in the saddle (the biggest
>reason I don't ride longer), and I'm scared to even think
>about what I could do on the climbs if it were gone.

This is an aerobelly. Learn to use it. Get a saddle that
works for your body. Survive the climbs, even though
everybody passes you (including the little kid in the fifty
pound recumbent). Fly past them going down the hill using
your gravity-assist. Retain your speed better on flat land
because you have more inertia for the same frontal area.

Embrace your aerobelly.
--
Rick Onanian

Mathias Koerber

On Wed, 19 May 2004 02:44:51 +0000, Badger_South wrote:

> You may be surprised just how much you're eating, how much
> you're eating at one meal, how much sugar and starch
> you're eating, and may be overestimating the mileage. If
> you're ranging from 95 to 190 miles during the week that
> sounds inconsistent. It may be that you're unknowingly
> sabotaging your efforts, by binging during the low mileage
> weeks. Perhaps you can smooth it out more, and get 150
> miles per week but ride
everyday.

One more comment (though I too am neither a dietician nor in
any way trained or experienced in any health-related field).

It seems that the body starts burning stored energy (fats)
only after about 1hr (ymmv) orf excercise, so you will need
a longer ride to burn off the readily available energy
before you start using up the reserves. a 15-30 mile (short
ride) daily will thus provide a generally good training but
do nothing (much) for loss of weight.

I lost abt 18kg in the first few month of starting cycling
again (after 16 years) and ascribe that to the fact that
while I did not change my eating habits much, I went for
long rides regularly (at least 2hrs usually 3 or more) which
seems to have made a difference. Now (a year later) I mostly
2 15km rides a day, and do not lose any more weight unless I
do get around to do longer rides (which is rare).

Pbwalther

>What worked/works for me is that I quit eating sugar,
>bread, and pasta/potatoes. I switched to fish, chicken,
>lean beef, green leafy veggies, cut back on dairy. Read
>Eades' book on Low carb 'Protein Power'.

Well, for much of human history people were lean indeed on a
diet of complex carbs, mainly in the form of grains,
vegetables and very little animal protein. It is quite easy
to have a diet like that and be quite lean.

Also, I find that as I do more aerobic exercise, nothing
powers the muscles better then carbohydrates. Eating lots
of meat just does not work that well for me and a good
thing to, with my vulnerability to high cholesterol, a high
protein diet would probably put me under a gravestone
pretty quickly.

Pbwalther

>I don't diet per se, but I do eat sensibly. The days that
>I've tracked my caloric intake it's usually right between
>2500 - 3000. One friend who is a "wellness" expert suggests
>I'm not eating *ENOUGH*. Although she readily admits she
>doesn't specialize in athletes ("slovenly couch potato" is
how
>she describes her typical client), she says that with my
>activity level my BMR is 5300.. as she explained it that's
>the number of calories needed to just maintain my weight!
>Therefore she thinks my body thinks it's being starved and
>refuses to let go of the fat. She thinks by eating MORE the
>body will move away from this starvation reflex and start
>shedding >pounds. She also suggested riding easy first
>thing in the morning BEFORE breakfast so the body has to
>switch to fat because the glycogen stores will be low
>(sound like a recipe for the BONK to me).

Well, what she is talking about does not make thermodynamic
sense. If you are burning 5300 calories per day and say
consuming 3550 calories per day then you would have a 1750
calorie deficit. Your body can not take calories from the
air for crying out loud! Your body has to make up the
deficit by burning fat and there is no way around that. So
either she is off on your caloric expenditure or you are
underestimating your consumption or a little of both.

Now she is right in one sense. Many sedentary people go on
diets. When you restrict calories, many people's bodies go
into a sort of famine reaction in which the body scales down
its metabolic rate in order to survive. As a result, some
people lose very little weight dieting and what they lose is
often muscle and not fat.

Exercising forces the body to increase the metabolic
rate. Daily aerobic exercise and being prudent with the
diet is a good way to lose or maintain weight. Also
exercise and a little weight lifting will make the body
keep the muscle because you are using it and the body
will preferentially lose fat.

The thing is that you can do a pot load of exercise and not
burn much fat. Now, assuming burning 50 calories per mile,
your 3,000 calories would be 42 lbs of fat. However, many
people up their food consumption in response to exercise and
that is probably what you have done.

Now, one can lose a considerable amount of weight exercising
and being prudent with diet. I did a 2 week bicycle tour in
the rockies. We did an average of 75 miles per day with
quite a bit of climbing and then walking around seeing
things on top of that. I made sure I ate plenty of complex
carbs and vegetables to replace my glycogen each day. I ate
some sweets also on the rest stops and took ate a modest
amount of fats and meats. After I got back, I was amazed
that I had lost 10 lbs in 14 days. So it can be done.

Of course, many people gained weight on the tour. They did
this by having an extra meal during the day consisting of a
big burger, fries, and a large sundae.

BanditManDan

Wow does this sound familiar. My story has been almost identical to yours except I managed to lose the weight with no problems. When I started I was 260lbs @ 6'1", eighteen months later I was down to 170lbs. How did I do it??

I basically did what other have already suggested . I began to keep track of my exercise and food intake using www.fitday.com. Another very confusing think for me was how much caloric intake I should eat daily. What I discovered was that "ALL" the experts (including the FDA) over estimated that daily caloric requirement just as your friend has done. 4000 calories is WAY too high for just about everybody. What I would suggest is to reduce your daily calories for one week and see if you begin to drop weight. Continue to do this until you start to drop 1 to 2 pounds a week and then just leave your diet alone.

In the end it really is just an input/output issue. Calories in and calories out. Simple.

Good luck.

Dan.

Terry Morse

"curt" wrote:

> If you just want to really lose weight you can go low carb
> all the way, you don't have to watch you fat intake. When
> people read that, it scares them. I am not sure why.

Reading "you don't have to watch you(r) fat intake"
doesn't scare
me. It makes me laugh. If P.T. Barnum were still alive, I
think he'd also find the humor in it.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Jeff

"> Hey Doug,
> I'm not a health professional but as an ex-amateur
> bodybuilder I have done a great deal of research on this
> subject.

Doug,

There is a lot of misleading and irrelevent information in
this post. Why do people assume that being married with kids
is a "high stress" lifestyle?

These days you will always get a very polarized response on
the subject of low carb diets. There is a lot of backlash
against them at the moment, because of their sudden
popularity. Simple statements like this:

>DO NOT do the low-carb/high protein fad diets. They are
>very unhealthy and any weight loss is temporary.

are very much not supported by current research. It worked
extremely well for me, although I was not as heavy as you
are. However one thing that is definitely true about the
program is that it is not for everyone. I would recommend
reading Atkins' book (over the follow-on imitators) , and
deciding for yourself if it is something you would like to
try. You *will* lose weight without being particularly
hungry if you carefully follow the diet as prescribed in the
book. Whether you can deal with the admittedly severe food
options is for you to decide.

One other thing - no human being has a "base metabolic rate"
of 5300 calories a day! That is *twice* the amount of
calories that a typical fairly active man needs in a day.

Good luck, Jeff

Roger Zoul

curt wrote:
::: Diet - Again, with your body type, a big obsticle is
::: going to be your slow metabolic rate. Try to avoid
::: simple carbohydrates (refined sugars, white breads,
::: etc.) DO NOT do the low-carb/high protein fad diets.
::: They are very unhealthy and any weight loss is
::: temporary. Forget the three big meals a day thing and
::: eat smaller meals more often and most importantly, learn
::: to recognize when you are satisfied, not full! Other
::: than that just try to eat a balanced diet and drink lots
::: of water.
::
:: I would hardly call low carbohydrate diets a fad. They
:: have been around since the 50's that I know of. They are
:: just in the news a lot because people have wised up. A
:: low carb diet is much more than any fad. It actually
:: works. You would need to at least read the Atkins book to
:: have an understanding of how it works, but I can tell
:: from your post you know nothing about it and just call it
:: a fad diet. You also have lots to learn about low
:: carbohydrate diets. Who do you think you are calling them
:: unhealthy? Do you know there are diabetics on this diet
:: and now can go off there medications? Do you know there
:: are plenty of people that have lost over 100 pounds and
:: they keep it off with their knowledge of low carb?

Yeah, like me. I've lost 130 lbs on LC and am no longer on
any medications for type 2 diabetes. Fasting BG of 80 and a
A1c of 5.1.

::
:: I suggest you stick to your X armature body building
:: status and no try and be a Doctor or nutrition.
::
:: If I was the original poster, the first thing I would do
:: is cut the carbs. What is funny, you suggested the same
:: thing, but you just don't like the works low carb.

Too many people get caught up in the hype about LC...both
positive and negative.

Badger_south

On Wed, 19 May 2004 21:06:25 +0800, "Mathias Koerber" <mathias@koerber.org>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 May 2004 02:44:51 +0000, Badger_South wrote:
>
>
>> You may be surprised just how much you're eating, how
>> much you're eating at one meal, how much sugar and starch
>> you're eating, and may be overestimating the mileage. If
>> you're ranging from 95 to 190 miles during the week that
>> sounds inconsistent. It may be that you're unknowingly
>> sabotaging your efforts, by binging during the low
>> mileage weeks. Perhaps you can smooth it out more, and
>> get 150 miles per week but ride
>everyday.
>
>One more comment (though I too am neither a dietician
>nor in any way trained or experienced in any health-
>related field).
>
>It seems that the body starts burning stored energy (fats)
>only after about 1hr (ymmv) orf excercise, so you will need
>a longer ride to burn off the readily available energy
>before you start using up the reserves. a 15-30 mile (short
>ride) daily will thus provide a generally good training but
>do nothing (much) for loss of weight.
>
>I lost abt 18kg in the first few month of starting cycling
>again (after 16 years) and ascribe that to the fact that
>while I did not change my eating habits much, I went for
>long rides regularly (at least 2hrs usually 3 or more)
>which seems to have made a difference. Now (a year later) I
>mostly 2 15km rides a day, and do not lose any more weight
>unless I do get around to do longer rides (which is rare).
>

In my experience it takes about 1 hour to get into that
'zone' (which some ppl don't seem to experience) if you're
doing jogging. It takes about 2 hours to get there if you're
biking. When 'it' happens, suddenly the effort seems to
disappear and you seem to be able to go on forever.

I've also experienced it with high rep high set weight
training, that after about 90 minutes, suddenly all the work
seems very easy.

I didn't start losing rapidly until my rides got up into the
50 to 90 minute range in biking, twice a day. Some days I do
fast (for me) 50 minute rides am, noon and pm.

I'm now losing about 2lbs per week of fat (and gaining more
muscle in my legs).

Seems as though the lower energy demands (and ability to
frequently rest/coast/go downhill) on the bike extends the
period that I like to call the 'fat burning zone' where I
fantacize that I'm burning fats, and ketones and FFA
(probably inaccurate, scientifically, but what the hey).

-B

Roger Zoul

Badger_South wrote:
:: On Wed, 19 May 2004 06:03:15 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
::
::: Nonsense on not eating enough. You need to eat less. i
::: suggest you use fitday.com to track everything you eat.
::: Limit calories to about 2200 per day. You may want to
::: try low-carb if you have problems with hunger/appetite.
::
:: I agree he's eating too much, but it may be he's getting
:: too much food at one time, swelling the stomach, or
:: bingeing during lower mileage weeks, b/c after all if
:: you're not out biking, you tend to be snacking.

One advantage of counting calories is that if you eat too
much at one meal you can compensate by eating less later on.
For me, I've found it matters little when I eat as long as I
control how much I eat. Swelling the stomach should NOT
happen if you are LCing and counting.

::
:: It's pretty easy to be way over your caloric estimate due
:: to things like gulping a half glass of milk right out of
:: the jug three or four times a day but failing to count
:: it, or grabbing a chunk of cheese and a couple slices of
:: lunchmeat in between meals, but not counting
:: it. That's why it's instructive to write down everything
:: for a representative period, IMO.

Exactly.

::
:: It may have been debunked but some ppl still may have
:: problems resulting in keeping the paunch by continuing to
:: eat and snack after dinner until bedtime.

Yes...however, if you count you can snack...but the trick
will be to limit calories. Doing that while on LC makes it
easier to eat less without being hungry. I find I rarely
need to snack.

::
:: Finally, the cravings for sugar shouldn't be happening.
:: That's a sure sign of 'carb addiction', and insulin
:: resistance.
::
:: But don't stop with just these suggestions. Get the bible
:: "The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald, and "Protein
:: Power" by Eades and learn the facts yourself.

Right. I recommend Lyle's book, but PP is great too (better
than Atkins on the science).