Poll: Hating America

Fixey

The focus of this disccusion seems to dwell on Iraq. Although the invasion of Iraq has shown the USA and Briton (mainly there leaders) in very bad light I think that America bashing (rightly or wrongly) has been around a long time before 11/9. Take the statement from ontheroadagain... " I don't care if people hate America. I should think that most everyone in Europe would be thankful they don't speak German and the rest should be thankful they don't speak Japanese." Most people outside the USA acuse the USA of nearly costing the Allies the war by waiting so damn long to join the fight. Then Zapper and Babbar chime in with Name calling and the "If you dont love us you must be dishonest" act....this is how America is persieved. Look know further than this thread for the answer to the question "Why do people hate America?"

BTW, im not saying that America's help was not wanted or very helpfull in WWII, thats not the case. But if the USA had waited anylonger to join I think that it is not just the Euro's that would be speacking German or Japanese right now.

Babbar

Not quite. What it put in a very bad light was the scandalous, unethical, and immoral dealings by the UN, Germany, Russia, France, and others in stealing money that was supposed to buy food and medicine for the Iraqi people, especially "the childern," who figure prominently in so much leftist propaganda.

It revealed them to be if not complicit then tacitly allowing the slaughter of innocent Iraqi men, women,and children and the wholesale slaughter of Kurds and Shiites.



And well they should be thankful. Were it not for American military might and resolve to fight tyranny, the world would need not have worried about the communists as the Nazis and Japanese would have conquered the world and we would all be subjects of the one-world government that so enthralls the left.



Most people? Oh, really? And, I assume, you have some proof of this astounding claim?

Personally, I have travelled all of the world, save South America, and I have yet to hear this from any of the thousands of people I have met and conversed with in over 40 years of travel.

Of course, the left is famous for "looking back in anger and resentment," searching for any tidbit with which to feed their envy-fueled irrational hatred of the U.S.



Calling a liberal a liberal or a leftist a leftist, sir, is not "name calling." What I did was characterize a nonsensical ignorant post "nonsensical ignorance" and posed a question.

I then stated an opinion that implied the poster was afflicted with "leftist ignorance" and was supremely arrogant, which was borne out in subsequent posts.

It it "name calling" to call a Frenchman a Frenchman? Of course not, and it is also not "name calling" to suggest that someone who displays supreme ignorance and arrogance is "ignorant" and "arrogant."



The ideological left will always hate anything or anyone that stands against them. The U.S. has been the bulwark against fascism, communism, and international, one-world socialism, so it is no suprise that fascists, communists, and socialists don't like us. If those are your reasons for hating us, then it is dishonest not to own up to it.

FInally, I notice you did not offer one fact, one iota of proof to support any of your or the other wild-eyed America bashers claims. How typical of the left.

limerickman

More lies being spouted here by our transatlantic friend.

George Bush 1 allowed SH to slaughter the kurds and the marsh arab in the immediate aftermath of Gulf War 1.
If Russia, Germany etc were tacit in their suport of SH slaughtering people - then George Bush 1 is expressly responsible for allowing SH to execute these people in the aftermath of the Gulf War.
Your General Schwartzkopf is on record stating that Bush refused him (S) to continue the advance on Baghdad in the Gulf War.
This opportunity allowed SH to rebuild his political base in Iraq.
(Bush 1 probably felt beholden to SH - after all SH was a bulwark
against Iran - old friends and all that).

You contend that the Japanese and the Nazi's were goingto win the war ?
Again, your recollection of history is shaky at best.
If you recall Britain held out against the Nazi's in 1939 and 1940.
Granted, large swathes of Europe had been over run by the Nazi's
however, by the end of 1940, the Soviet Union had started to
move the Nazi army back.
Of course, the USA only decided to get involved after Pearl Harbour - otherwise they would have remained neutral.

No one stole money under the oil for food program.
Is this another Richard Perle - pearl ??

These lies are untrue but unfortunately you believe this propoganda - for that is what it is.

You know when I read you mails - it's like re-reading some stuff from the depths of the cold war.
In this instance, you fail to see that constructive criticism is merely
constructive criticism.
You fail to see that we, here in Europe, are in fact your allies.
But the wave of paranoia that has swept over parts of your nation, clouds this.
I, for one, don't hate America - I am sad however to see cold war
warrior statements and revisionism being expounded here.
Your views reflect some, in the USA ,who refuse to acknowledge
facts.
You keep repeating and repeating lies - in the expectation that if you repeat a statement often enough, we might just start to believe you.
You're sadly mistaken my friend.
It doesn't matter how often you try to tell us that black is white.

Facts are facts - revisionism is where you and your theories exist.

bioguy

Saucy suggested (if I read his post correctly) that this thread was intended to be a troll. In fact, I really wanted folks to answer the three original questions I asked:

1. Where are you from?
2. Do you hate the U.S.?
3. Did we deserve to be attacked on 9/11?

To clarify #1, I meant "what country?"

The topic of this thread was not intended to be "why do folks hate us?" My intention was to find out whether relatively intelligent folks (members of this forum seem to fall into this category) hated the U.S., what countries they were from, and whether or not they thought we deserved 9/11. In an interview on Fox and Friends, John Gibson, who wrote the book I cited in the original post, said things that lead me to believe that these questions would have particular answers. I wanted to test my hypothesis. If his assumptions proved correct, I might choose to buy his book.

Limerickman asked who wrote the book I cited in my intro to this subject. His name is John Gibson. I included a link to Amazon.com in the title of the book. Click on it to see reviews, etc. I have not read the book, but saw an interview of Fox & Friends where Gibson was plugging his book.

There also seems to be differences about what the facts are with respect to history. I agree that it is not possible to have a reasonable discussion if different sides have their own facts. I'd challenge you to cite sources.

Saucy

Bioguy, I didn't mean to imply you were a troll. Rather I was referring to the posters who seem to be citing "facts" which are simply meant to incite posters to disagree with them. Having said that, this type of topic simply invites disagreement, similar to the "Christian cyclists" thread.



Amen, brother. The stuff spouted on this thread is exactly what makes people hate Americans.

IMO, the Russians made just as valuable a contribution to the Allied effort in WWII. But you would never hear Americans admit this. Its fine to applaud the US contribution to the war effort, which was substantial, but to deny the efforts made by other countries is completely unfair and historically inaccurate.

Liberal (according to my dictionary):
1) broad-minded; not narrow in one's ideas
2) designed to broaden the mind in a general way
3) political philosophy that emphasizes belief in progress, individual freedom, and a democratic form of government.

Am I a liberal? Absolutely and proud of it !

Babbar

Tell you what, limerick old man, provide some facts and evidence along with citations of where one can view the evidence.

Personally, I don't think you can. I think you are a troll.

Babbar

Not quite. The biggest contribution the Russians made was that Hitler felt the need to open an eastern front. Like all European madmen who attacked Russia, he got bogged down by two things, the Russian winter and the overwhelming number of Russians who the Marxist/Lenninst government allowed to be wantonly slaughtered.



Nothing to admit. The Russians were our allies against the Axis Powers, but without massive U.S. aid, the "lend-lease"program the Russians wouldn't have been able to do a thing.



That is the definition of a liberal, now known as a "classic liberal." It does not, however, describe the moderan American liberal, aka progressive, who is mired in the socialist past.

But tell you what, here is a direct challenge, provide evidence of modern American liberal broad-mindedness and individual freedom. I could use a good laugh.

Saucy

1. Magnetic North - the best godamned country in the world! We're the best! That's why everyone imitates us, tries to come live here, and points all their compasses in our direction. Y'all hate us cuz y'all are jealous of us, and if it wasn't for us saving yer french asses, y'all would be pointing yer compasses to Magnetic South so get on yer knees and worship us, ya liberal turds ! And if we need to kick some ass around the planet, then so be it, cuz God is on our side and y'all should be grateful to us for saving yer asses and deliverin y'all from Evil ! (insert smiley face here)

And God Bless Magnetic North!!

(Yes, I've been headhunted to be a Bush speechwriter, why do you ask?)

2. No.

3. No.

limerickman

Babbar,

Now that you cannot refute what I have said – you resort to trying to insult me by calling me a troll !

Well, I’m not surprised that you have descended to the level of name calling – after all
when you have nothing left to argue with, it is your only refuge.

You quote some information that you read or heard about to promulgate your point of view.
You throw in a few literary references in the hope that by quoting these literary references, we will be convinced that you know what you’re talking about.
Instead when I present a dissenting argument (see the point about the Umma), you’re
unable to respond (you probably went off to Google to try to find out what Umma meant – even though I gave you a clear definition of the concept of Umma in my reply).

Your limited knowledge of what we’re actually discussing here, is the real problem.
Your cold war script from 20 years ago is redundant, Babbar.
Events have moved on – but you’re still stuck in the past regurgitating the old lies of the past.
Quite frankly, it is embarrassing to read what you have posted on this thread because it smacks of xenophobia.
“Nazi’s, Japanese, lackeys, leftists, Russians, liberals, trolls ” :
you’ve labels for everyone eh, Babbar ?

Your ignorance level is quite astonishing : the Soviets fought in WW2.
Your refer to them as Russians – typical CIA-speak.
Your attempt to link Osama Bin Laden to Hussein takes the biscuit though.
Linking a radical religious muslim to a secular muslim is truly laughable.
I could go on but what is the point – you’re convinced that you’re right.

I won’t rise to the challenge of presenting references to my argument because it is
obvious that you do not have the ability to understand the discussion nor are you willing to listen to the opposite side of this discussion.

limerickman

Zapper,

I read your post with interest.

The goalposts continually move with you guys, eh ?
I quote “ you are dead on concerning what the word LIBERAL means today” end quote, Zapper.
You’re now stating that depending on which day it is – the word liberal can mean different things ?
Shifting goalposts, amigo.

I quote again “I have seen reps from countries that blast us in the media yet court us behind the scenes...This once again is a first hand, witnessed FACT not Balloon Juice conjured up on some bogus website...” end quote, Zapper.
Can you give us some details of countries who have requested help from the USA ?
I know of no country that court the USA behind the scenes.
If they want help, they ask for help and it’s reported.

I quote “Finally, Limerickman claims (CBS news anchor) Dan Rather made some comment that he couldn't report the news he wanted..I wonder if he was watching that CBS News channel which displayed Princess Diana's body? It was despicable and they should be ashamed..That should explain what kind of news org that Rather works for so even if he did make that comment...consider the source...by the way, I think that Pat Tillman was one of many I spoke of earlier in my original post that joined the Military for other reasons than for a JOB! Believe me, there are many more!!!” end quote, Zapper.
I am based in Europe, we do get coverage of CBS Evening News at USA time 7.00pm.
Other than seeing this broadcast, I have not seen any other output from CBS.
I did however see a BBC interview conducted by Charles Wheeler with Dan Rather.
Rather made the comments about the content of the reports which he reads each night.
As I have already explained to you – I don’t know if Rather is good/bad/indifferent.
What intrigues me is how a respected newscaster can more or less admit that what he reads each night is one version of news tailored to meet what people ought to think and is therefore not objective news.
It doesn’t matter if the newscaster is Kermit the Frog – the essential point is that the editorial control of what is read each night is biased.
THAT IS THE POINT !

Quote “In closing..What is great about America is that we can take criticism like the hooey being slung by Limerickman and others and yet still like these people” endquote, Zapper.
Indeed.
It seems to me that if anyone voices a reasonable criticism that you cannot in fact take it !

Quote “I'm glad they have the freedom to voice their opinion thats why many Americans gave their lives in WWII and ...You can just say thank you or have a nice day or say nothing I don't care..But, if some Evil country was invading you, who are you going to call? I don't think you could "type them to death" like whats being done here!”endquote, Zapper.

Let’s be clear here – the USA’s participation in WW2 was welcome.
But the USA was neutral until Pearl Harbour, if you recall.
Britain, France, the Soviet Union all fought in WW2 for a long time before the USA became involved.
Indeed, in my own country thousands of men joined the British army to fight in what was rightly considered to be “a just war”.
(A little history lesson, less than 25 years prior to 1939 our nation, Ireland, had been at war with Britain, but because Nazi Germany was a threat to civilization, our nation
discarded ancient enmity and joined the British forces to fight Nazism – so as you’re blowing your hole about the USA – you’d do well to remember that other countries made sacrifices too).
The USA refused to engage in WW2 until the attack at Pearl Harbour.

Quote “BTW Limerickman, bloodline is Irish on my mothers side. Her maiden name was Leary..The "O" was dropped due to Irish persecution when they came over as immigrants to the U.S. years ago. Even so, my family has a history of fighting for this country and they loved my country just like I do. Once again its' called ownership...Something they must have learned when they came over here or perhaps it is something that you lost.????” endquote
Zapper.

If your family joined up –well and good.
The fact that the USA afforded your family a new life is great : a lot of countries have
afforded a livelihood to people (Britain, Germany for example).

Babbar

Excellent post, zapper. Well and truly said.