Poll: Hating America

limerickman

Zapper,

You are quite right - freedom does allow us to exchnage views and for that we must be grateful.

Before disussing your reply - I am from Ireland.
I have no difficulty with anyone being a member of the US armed forces.
As you rightly point out a lot of men and women join the US forces
in order to earn a living.
Unfortunately, the armed forces come under the stewardship of
politicians.
If you're a member of the US armed forces - and you commander in chief declares war - you have no choice but to fight or else
you commit treason.

Your commander in chief, Mr.Bush decided that 2003 was the right time to invade Iraq.
His goverment produced a series of lies to justify their attacking Iraq.
Supposedly Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, Hussein
supposedly supported Al Quaeda.
Your secreatry of State, Powell went to the UN and produced doctored photographs allegedly showing mobile WMD lauch units.
These photographs later transpired to be photos of juggernauts.

OK goverments lie all the time but in this case, Bush and Co. not only lied to the world - they have also let their military personnel be used as cannon fodder in Iraq.
The reason why the US goverment invaded Iraq is it wants to secure another source of oil should Saudi Arabia fall in to the wrong hands.

The topic of the thread is why do (some) people hate USA ?
A lot of people around the world have reason to hate the USA.
Look at the US support of Israel for example.
How would you feel if you were told that you would have to abandon your home and move elsewhere.
After you're moved - you have to sit there and watch another family occupy your property.
And on top of that, you have to sit there and watch as the USA
support the economy of the country of the occupiers of your home !
You see General Electric or Westinghouse or United Technologies supply the army of your occupier with military support.

Or how about Venezuala.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was elected in April 2002.
As it happened an irish TV company were in Venezuela to film his election when a military coup took place.
It transpires that there is direct evidence showing funding provided by the CIA to rightwing political groups to engineer said coup.

The evil that you take about which is threatening the world was germinated by your goverment in Afghanistan in the 1980's.
Back then it was expedient for your goverment to back militarily and financially, Osama Bin Laden and the mujahadeen, in the
war against the USSR.
Again the CIA provided financial and logistical expertise to what
is now known as Al Quaeda.
It was expedient for the USA to support Bin Laden back then !
But now because Bin Laden decided to bite the hand that fed him - he's evil !
Who was the biggest backer of Saddam Hussein in the 1980's ?
The USA.

All goverments are corrupt - British, Irish, American etc.
They are expedient and will lie through their teeth to justify what they do in our name.
I just feel sorry for the ordinary soldier who has to obey the orders of those expedient politicans.

limerickman

I don't mean to be smart but the invasion of Iraq took place on
21st March 2003
USA has been in Iraq 13 months.
The war didn't start in 2004.

Fixey

Back to the question of this thread.
I think one needs to grossly generalise to answer here. Firstly, the world knows 2 america's. 1) the school yard bully America that is the Government and 2) the zenephobic America we see in there television/movies/music.
As has been pointed out in past posts, 99.9% of Americans are probably real nice people, but the world doesnt see them on TV every day. We constantly hear Bush et al telling the world why his country has the right to invade who ever they want just because they have the power to do so. We see movies telling us about the great american system, telling us how the US won WW2 for us, telling us about freedom and the American way....most of us know this to be pipe dreams and smoke.
I have a question for american's...

Do you actually think your system is better than everyone elses's? (anyone elses's)

Do you believe the american cause to be righteous?

Do you believe the USA is really a democrocy otr that you really control your government?

I personally dont hate American's, I am petrified of there desire to rule the world, the US government disgusts me, I really dislike the "American Image" portrayed in thier media but I dont hate the people.

More fuel for the fire...I am proud to be a communist, not what American's think a communist is but a real communist.

Saucy

The liberals? Paul O'Neill, Richard Clarke, Tommy Franks, and Bob Woodward have all said that plans were in the works as early as 2001.

Paul O'Neill has said that war with Iraq was discussed at cabinet meetings in 2001. O'Neill comes from the corporate world, served as Treasury Secretary under Bush (he advocated the tax cuts that got bush elected). He is not a liberal.

Richard Clarke has said that on September 12, 2001 he was asked by Bush to come up with evidence linking Iraq to the Trade Center attacks as a pretext for war. Clarke served under Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. He is a registered Republican. He is not a liberal.

Bob Woodward documents in his book that Bush asked Rumsfeld to come up with a war plan in 2001. Woodward is well known as a conservative journalist. This is why he was given special access to bush in order to write his book. His entire book was written as a result of access to Bush himself and his administration. He is not a liberal.

Tommy Franks serves under the current administration. He has said that he was asked to come up with a war plan for Iraq while he was at war in Afghanistan (and reportedly blew a fuse when asked to do so, justifiably so considering he was in the middle of another war. Tommy Franks is not a liberal.

Based on these sources, there can be no doubt that the plan to invade Iraq took place in 2001 - most likely sooner, thanks to Cheney's urging.

If you don't want to believe that this is true, then fine. But don't ascribe this information as being propogated by the "liberal media" (whatever the hell that is) because that is simply wrong. This information is coming from within the Bush administration.



Well, I guess Bush Senior also lacked courage, then? Cheney urged Bush Sr for regime change in Iraq during the Gulf War which would have been an opportune time to do it, don't you agree? Bush chose not to, proving again how much smarter he is than his own son.

And Clinton and the UK bombed Iraq several times to enforce the no-fly zone.

Zapper, I have to say I am surprised to hear someone in the military so supportive of Bush. Bush has banned the media from taking photographs of the dead bodies being returned to Dover Air Force Base. He has also not attended one single military funeral for the soldiers who have died in Iraq. Not one! Every night on the PBS newshour, they show photos of soldiers killed that day in Iraq. To know that these people died in a war with no purpose is heartbreaking. To know that their own Commander in Chief refuses to acknowledge their deaths with the ceremony they deserve is dispicable. To know that their deaths are the result of lies and distortions to support an unjustified war is nothing short of a travesty.

Why you would support a man who has shown such willful disregard for the lives of those serving him is completely beyond my comprehension.

limerickman

Zapper, I take it that you don't like the BBC.
I think that the BBC do a fine job - they are impartial,they are not answerable to shareholders and they provide excellent coverage on international events.
Indeed, a lot of the media in Europe has echoed the line of reporting adopted by the BBC - especially concerning Bush/Blair and Iraq.
The New York Times has also adopted the same line as the BBC.
If you consider that NBC,CBS and ABC are parts of publicly quoted corporations, they are required to adopt a particular line in their reporting.
I think it is very sad when the anchor of prime time American news states that he knows that what he reads to the American nation is effectively spin.
Dan Rather may or may not be a fraud - I cannot say.
But it does make one wonder.

You state that you're from the Bible Belt.
Not wishing to be disrespectful - are you part of the evangelical
view ie end of the world, Armageddon - the Rapture etc ?
Do you support the Israel/Zionist policy ?
Do you support Israel's zionistic plans ?

In relation to my comment about the US forces, I should have stated that some people join the army because they want an education or a job.
They don't necessarily join up to have to fight in a war.
I respect your view for joining up because you wish to be patriotic etc.
But let's be absolutely clear here - the army falls under the jurisdiction of the politicians.
The politicians sanctioned an illegal war in Iraq.
Try expressing your views at the Walter Reed Veterans Hospital -
to those injured in iraq and Afghanistan.
And while you're there you should ask why your Pentagon has dumbed down figures of those injured in Iraq.
WRVH has treated over 8000 soldiers since 21 March 2003.
According to Pentagon figures there have been only 3,000 fatalities and injuries.
The Chief Medical Officer at WRVH states that the Pentagon are lying.

As you do state Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own
people.
Does this justify the over throw of SH by the USA ?
Are you seriously arguing that the removal of SH was ordered by Bush because of his (SH's) lack of human rights ?
If so, it is hypocritical.
If the USA was so concerned about SH and his killing people : why did they allow SH to stay in power when he gassed the kurds
in Halabja ?
Why did the USA allow SH to wipe out the marsh arabs in the south in the immediate aftermath of the Gulf War in 1991 ?
Do you want to know why the USA did not take out SH earlier ?
Because it was expedient for the USA to leave him in power.
The USA stated that SH was a bulwark against Iran.
Rumsfeld sold him arms in 1983 !
So now that it's not expedient for USA to support SH - they decide to invade Iraq.

I go back to the central point here - lots of people worldwide have perfectly valid reasons for hating the USA.
When you see the duplicity of foreign policy toward Israel and Iraq and Afghanistan and other places like Turkey, people perceive the USA to be duplicitous.
When people see the US army occupying the land of the sacred
sites of Islam (Saudi Arabia), it does enforce the perception that
the USA is the enemy and it's support of the Saudi Royal family
re-enforces this perception.

As I said earlier - your view is your view and I respect that.
But I do think that when americans ask themselves why people hate them, they need to be cognisant of what their goverment does in their name throughout certain parts of the world.

limerickman

So let me get this right - the WMD that Bush and Powell and Rumsfeld were referring to all along was Saddam Hussein and not the military hardware that the USA sold to Iraq ?
And that Han Blix and the weapons inspectors such as Richard Kaye were wrong all along - the weapons that they were seeking to locate wasn't material hardware but Saddam Hussein himself?
Intriguing !
It makes you wonder why Powell turned up at the UN with his doctored photographs in February 2003 ?
You see, what's happening here - the lies perpetrated and repeated by the USA - in this instance about Iraq - simply confirm the duplicitous nature of the Bush goverment.

And the oil for food conspiracy ?
Wasn't it Richard Perle who devised this conspiracy theory ?

I don't know my friend - I am bewildered.
The good guys in the 1980's (Saddam and Osama) are now the bad guys.
And the bad guys in the 1980's like Gaddafy and the Iranians - are now the good guys !

So let's just recap the situation - my 1980's enemy enemy is my friend....is not my friend.....well, is my friend if I sell him weapons and he doesn't bite my hand.........but is not my friend if he does bite my hand after we sell him the weapons.........stage a coup !
Oh no we didn't.........mam and apple pie........look at old glory flying there.........no those coffins don't contain bodies they're......
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