20mph zones coming.

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On Fri, 16 May 2008 07:38:37 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Sir
Jeremy <pete.aron@virgin.net> wrote this:-

>> >The variable limits outside schools was an ABD idea years ago so glad
>> >to see the Government agreeing.
>>
>> I heard it suggested long before they took it on, but of course they
>> mainly mean it in the sense of not having low limits when they want
>> to go fast rather than having them when it will make the roads
>> safer.
>
>Adds up to the same thing

Wrong. It adds up to a very different thing.

>despite your typically ant-car spin

Excellent, a personal attack.

Now I must stop feeding the troll.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Fri, 16 May 2008 07:38:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Jeremy
<pete.aron@virgin.net> said in
<d209aeff-33df-47ee-897a-478fe0d8c902@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>:

>Adds up to the same thing despite your typically ant-car spin

Um, no it doesn't. And anti-ABD is not anti-car, ABD are extremist
militant cagers.

ABD's stance is that anything that interferes with them going fast
is, by default, bad. Their willingness to tolerate VSLs round
schools was, in my view, simply a way of opposing slower speeds
around schools, since they didn't believe it would happen.

Let's wait and see what they say when the tickets start rolling in.
"Oh, what a good idea" is not in my top ten lists of quotes I'm
expecting to hear from them once that happens.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

The ABD, like safespeeding, is an irrelevance. Fewer than 3000
members, linked to extreme-right groups, given to hysterical whining
about law enforcement.

They also lie about their size:


ABD's chairman, Brian Gregory, initially told the Guardian that the
association had 9,000 members. But when challenged, the ABD lowered
its claim to 2,256 paying subscribers and 3,775 "affiliate" members
who it said were automatically included by virtue of their membership
of eight connected associations.

Several of the so-called affiliate organisations denied that their
members had any link to the ABD. The Renault Clio Owners' Club, which
numbers 1,000 people, said it did not consider that its members could
be counted by the ABD. The Fiat Motor Club, which also has 1,000
members, insisted it had "no official link to the ABD".

Peter Jones, chairman of the Fiat Motor Club, said the club had once
paid a £20 fee to receive the ABD's magazine but had no close
connection: "This is well out of order. Some of our members would
probably take exception to being counted as members of something
they've never heard of and probably don't agree with."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/feb/03/transport.world

"spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:471d86aa-d79c-4d56-9661-8126ed170c19@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> "Then let's set a target of a 95% reduction (and recognise that it
> will be
> unachievable) "
>
>
> Not at all, in Denmark slower speeds as well as other measures have
> resulted in cycling being four times safer than in the UK.
>
> Slashing the carnage on our roads is achievable, and essential.

Since when has this thread been about cycling safety? You put up 'zero
deaths' a a worthy objective, then talked about 95% of accidents being due
to driver error. When I pointed out that neither 100% or 95% reduction in
deaths was achievable, you respond that 'slashing' is achievable. It may
well be, but when you slash something there is a remainder, and a
significant p[art of that remainder is the bit that is unachievable.

On 16 May, 15:48, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <u...@ftc.gov> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 07:38:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Jeremy
> <pete.a...@virgin.net> said in
> <d209aeff-33df-47ee-897a-478fe0d8c...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >Adds up to the same thing despite your typically ant-car spin
>
> Um, no it doesn't.  And anti-ABD is not anti-car, ABD are extremist
> militant cagers.
>
> ABD's stance is that anything that interferes with them going fast
> is, by default, bad.  Their willingness to tolerate VSLs round
> schools was, in my view, simply a way of opposing slower speeds
> around schools, since they didn't believe it would happen.
>
> Let's wait and see what they say when the tickets start rolling in.
> "Oh, what a good idea" is not in my top ten lists of quotes I'm
> expecting to hear from them once that happens.
>
> Guy
> --
> May contain traces of irony.  Contents liable to settle after posting.http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
>
> 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound


If Brake had come up with the same idea then you'd be all for it

"Sir Jeremy" <pete.aron@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:605166f1-50ec-4a8a-a360-e99532abbded@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On 16 May, 15:48, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <u...@ftc.gov> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 07:38:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Jeremy
> <pete.a...@virgin.net> said in
> <d209aeff-33df-47ee-897a-478fe0d8c...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >Adds up to the same thing despite your typically ant-car spin
>
> Um, no it doesn't. And anti-ABD is not anti-car, ABD are extremist
> militant cagers.
>
> ABD's stance is that anything that interferes with them going fast
> is, by default, bad. Their willingness to tolerate VSLs round
> schools was, in my view, simply a way of opposing slower speeds
> around schools, since they didn't believe it would happen.
>
> Let's wait and see what they say when the tickets start rolling in.
> "Oh, what a good idea" is not in my top ten lists of quotes I'm
> expecting to hear from them once that happens.
>
> Guy
> --
> May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
> posting.http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
>
> 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound


>If Brake had come up with the same idea then you'd be >all for it

I'm all for it, but I too suspect the ABD's motives

On 16 May, 15:56, spindrift <newty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The ABD, like safespeeding, is an irrelevance. Fewer than 3000
> members, linked to extreme-right groups, given to hysterical whining
> about law enforcement.
>
>
snipped guardian bollocks

Plenty of people agree with the ABD and aren't members. Most of the
people who voted for Boris last week aren't members of the
Conservative Party.

BTW stay clear of Lords tomorrow Spindrift. If I spot you I'll stick
my umbrella in your spokes

On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:28:45 -0700 (PDT), Sir Jeremy
<pete.aron@virgin.net> said in
<64a5a635-85fa-4853-b6d2-5cce006937b1@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>:

>Plenty of people agree with the ABD and aren't members.

And "the lurkers support you by email".

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:21:20 -0700 (PDT), Sir Jeremy
<pete.aron@virgin.net> said in
<605166f1-50ec-4a8a-a360-e99532abbded@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>:

>If Brake had come up with the same idea then you'd be all for it

Actually, no, I don't go a bundle on Brake, and I am all for it
anyway. I am a big fan of VSLs, they work really well on the M25 and
should be implemented round Birmingham and Manchester ASAP.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On 16 May, 16:37, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <u...@ftc.gov> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:21:20 -0700 (PDT), Sir Jeremy
> <pete.a...@virgin.net> said in
> <605166f1-50ec-4a8a-a360-e99532abb...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >If Brake had come up with the same idea then you'd be all for it
>
> Actually, no, I don't go a bundle on Brake, and I am all for it
> anyway. I am a big fan of VSLs, they work really well on the M25 and
> should be implemented round Birmingham and Manchester ASAP.
>
> Guy
> --
> May contain traces of irony.  Contents liable to settle after posting.http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
>
> 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

There are some VSLs on the M42

spindrift <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Some truly twatty pro-speeding comments below:
>
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3941769.ece
>
> The speed limit on thousands of residential roads will be reduced to
> 20mph under government moves designed to cut road deaths by a third
> over the next decade.
>
> Variable limits will be introduced on main roads near schools, with
> digital signs ordering drivers to cut their speed to 20mph or less
> when pupils are arriving or departing.
>
> Cameras that detect a vehicleís average speed will be used instead of
> road humps to enforce the limit in some of the new 20mph zones.
>
> More than 3,000 people die on the roads each year, including
> motorists, passengers, cyclists and pedestrians. The target, to be
> reached by 2020, is expected to be set at about 2,000 deaths.
>
>
> End quote.

certinly be better than the present system with the odd 20 zone. got a
20 zone here, it's on the A308 trunk road though hampton, yet all the
roads off it, are 30mph

the A308 20mph zone is largly ingnored out of rush hour, and pointless
during, you can comftably out walk the rush hour traffic.

and the narrow streets off and around are far from safe at 30mph.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

"spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:471d86aa-d79c-4d56-9661-8126ed170c19@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> "Then let's set a target of a 95% reduction (and recognise that it
> will be
> unachievable) "
>
>
> Not at all, in Denmark slower speeds as well as other measures have
> resulted in cycling being four times safer than in the UK.
>
> Slashing the carnage on our roads is achievable, and essential.



I'm certainly entering this discussion in the "wrong place", but as I can't
easily see a better spot here goes;-

Little point in more 20mph zones when (in my town) the present ones are
absolutely ignored and quite unenforced.
I'm very happy to see a target of "nil deaths" on our roads - but until we
can find (or seriousely attempt) some way of pacifying the mad aggression we
ALL encounter as road users this figure is unachievable.
Simple, obvious and very true.
John

On Fri, 16 May 2008 20:46:15 +0100, John Clayton wrote:

> "spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:471d86aa-d79c-4d56-9661-8126ed170c19@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> "Then let's set a target of a 95% reduction (and recognise that it
>> will be
>> unachievable) "
>>
>>
>> Not at all, in Denmark slower speeds as well as other measures have
>> resulted in cycling being four times safer than in the UK.
>>
>> Slashing the carnage on our roads is achievable, and essential.
>
>
>
> I'm certainly entering this discussion in the "wrong place", but as I can't
> easily see a better spot here goes;-
>
> Little point in more 20mph zones when (in my town) the present ones are
> absolutely ignored and quite unenforced.
> I'm very happy to see a target of "nil deaths" on our roads - but until we
> can find (or seriousely attempt) some way of pacifying the mad aggression we
> ALL encounter as road users this figure is unachievable.
> Simple, obvious and very true.


We know the way; it's been posted here before.

Long gaol terms, suspended with conditions. Second offense, and plod takes
them straight there - they've broken the terms, no trial necessary.

And car crushing, irrespective of the owner/keeper/driver.

Quite simply, the cost of error must be high enough that ther eroors
decrease.

Sir Jeremy wrote:
> On 16 May, 13:51, Mark McNeill <markonnewsgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Response to Rob Morley
>>
>>> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/trans...
>> "The Government is preparing a road safety strategy for the next decade
>> and will publish proposals in a consultation document this year. Unlike
>> previous strategies, it is expected to include a specific target to
>> reduce road deaths and a series of tough measures.
>>
>> In addition to more 20mph zones, measures are likely to include a lower
>> drink-drive limit, six penalty points for serious breaches of the speed
>> limit and harsher penalties for not wearing seatbelts."
>>
>> This would of course be a perfect time for the government to introduce a
>> MHL: any cyclists' lives saved by introducing 20mph speed limits would
>> thereafter be cited as evidence of the marvellous efficacy of h*lm*ts.
>> </cynic>
>>
>> "Read all 172 comments"
>>
>> Oh, sure, that's *just* how I'll be spending my day off...
>>
>> --
>> Mark, UK
>> "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always
>> so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
>
>
> The variable limits outside schools was an ABD idea years ago so glad
> to see the Government agreeing.

I know of one school where it has been in operation for more than a
decade. There are probably many others.

It seems to work fine.

Who would be against it (as long as the lower limits did not operate at
silly times, like Sundays in August or New year's Day)?

spindrift wrote:

> Nobody is saying close all the roads, nor will drivers have to have a
> man with a red flag walking in front of the car.

> 95% of accidents involve driver error according to ROSPA. Fatal RTA's
> are invariably avoidable.

Have you thought of a way of stopping people from making mistakes?

Want to share it, or is the patent pending?

David Hansen wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 05:58:51 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Sir
> Jeremy <pete.aron@virgin.net> wrote this:-
>
>> The variable limits outside schools was an ABD idea years ago so glad
>> to see the Government agreeing.
>
> Really. If it was then their "idea" was no-doubt no speed limit most
> of the time and only one at school in/out times. That is rather
> different to the variable speed limits that are set up outside
> schools and for which the ABD can take no credit.
>
>> Compulsory helmets on cycles for children - only a matter of time now.
>
> Why should a cycle used by children wear a helmet?

Is there a proposal that bikes should wear helmets?

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> Sir Jeremy <pete.aron@virgin.net> said:

>> Adds up to the same thing despite your typically ant-car spin

> Um, no it doesn't. And anti-ABD is not anti-car, ABD are extremist
> militant cagers.

> ABD's stance is that anything that interferes with them going fast
> is, by default, bad. Their willingness to tolerate VSLs round
> schools was, in my view, simply a way of opposing slower speeds
> around schools, since they didn't believe it would happen.

But it DOES happen already.

Did you not know that?

Maybe it's a pilot, maybe not, but there is at least one case of a
variable limit ouitside a school that can be instanced (on the A21 trunk
road in Hurst Green, Sussex).

<http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.014983,0.472176&spn=0.005029,0.010042&t=h&z=17>

The limit (30 normally, IIRC) reduces to 20 at school opening and
closing times. It's been like that for well over ten years. I assume it
is still operating, but I haven't been that way for several years.

Sir Jeremy <pete.aron@virgin.net> wrote:

> On 16 May, 15:56, spindrift <newty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The ABD, like safespeeding, is an irrelevance. Fewer than 3000
> > members, linked to extreme-right groups, given to hysterical whining
> > about law enforcement.
> >
> >

Snip Sir Jeremy's bollocks. ;-)

Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

On Fri, 16 May 2008 15:09:17 +0100, budstaff wrote:

>
> "spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9cb4f913-a3b5-4873-ad51-50ada34219cd@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>> 2000 road deaths is the target- Sweden's stated aim is to achieve zero
>> road deaths. We've a long way to go.
>>
>>
>> 6 points for "excessive" speeding is a step in the right direction, but
>> the pro-speeding drivers comparing road safety measure to "Stalinism" is
>> laughable.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm pro reducing speed limits near schools (and any
> road safety measure which is likely to reduce accidents), but I'm rather
> glad that we have a long way to go to match the Swedes. The only way that
> we could achieve a target of zero road deaths would be to close all the
> roads - to bikes 'n'all.
>
> Zero targets are ludicrous propagandism.

A bit like "zero tolerance"? I don't think so.

A target of zero road deaths is laudable.

--
___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____
/ _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
/ // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
/____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/

Dead Paul wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 15:09:17 +0100, budstaff wrote:
>
>> "spindrift" <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:9cb4f913-a3b5-4873-ad51-50ada34219cd@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>> 2000 road deaths is the target- Sweden's stated aim is to achieve zero
>>> road deaths. We've a long way to go.
>>>
>>>
>>> 6 points for "excessive" speeding is a step in the right direction, but
>>> the pro-speeding drivers comparing road safety measure to "Stalinism" is
>>> laughable.
>> Don't get me wrong, I'm pro reducing speed limits near schools (and any
>> road safety measure which is likely to reduce accidents), but I'm rather
>> glad that we have a long way to go to match the Swedes. The only way that
>> we could achieve a target of zero road deaths would be to close all the
>> roads - to bikes 'n'all.
>>
>> Zero targets are ludicrous propagandism.
>
> A bit like "zero tolerance"? I don't think so.
>
> A target of zero road deaths is laudable.

It's a laudable preference, but not a realistic target. Targets are set
at achievable levels.

Zero isn't achievable (people will always make mistakes, pedestrians
will always dash across roads without looking or whilst drunk and there
will always be drivers who die at the wheel from heart attacks).