Re: Red lights jumping - interesting survey

Since 2001, over 90,000 cyclist's have joined Cycling Forums to discuss topics from general cycling to equipment, training, racing and travel or vacation destinations (especially in europe during the tour de france). We also feature an great deals in our online store, 100's of articles, classifieds and product reviews.

In article <b7f23e01-f861-49aa-9095-aa441cf4e800
@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...

> > The figures look even worse if you are to take them as a percentage of
> > road user by type of vehicle. I'd say it would make cyclists at least a
> > hundred times worse.
>
> You'd SAY it, would you? But what's that worth? Have you some
> statistics, or just gut feelings?

30,000,000 registered cars in the UK. How many bicycles? It isn't
anywhere near that figure.

So as a percentage of the road user type, an equal or higher actual
number than a group with a larger number of members shows them to be
far worse.

--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

On 15 May, 14:34, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <b7f23e01-f861-49aa-9095-aa441cf4e800
> @y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> > > The figures look even worse if you are to take them as a percentage of
> > > road user by type of vehicle. I'd say it would make cyclists at least a
> > > hundred times worse.
>
> > You'd SAY it, would you? But what's that worth? Have you some
> > statistics, or just gut feelings?
>
> 30,000,000 registered cars in the UK. How many bicycles? It isn't
> anywhere near that figure.
>
> So as a percentage of the road user type, an equal or higher actual
> number than a group with a larger number of members shows them to be
> far worse.
>

So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.

Squashme wrote:
> On 15 May, 14:34, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <b7f23e01-f861-49aa-9095-aa441cf4e800
>> @y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>>
>>>> The figures look even worse if you are to take them as a
>>>> percentage of road user by type of vehicle. I'd say it would make
>>>> cyclists at least a hundred times worse.
>>
>>> You'd SAY it, would you? But what's that worth? Have you some
>>> statistics, or just gut feelings?
>>
>> 30,000,000 registered cars in the UK. How many bicycles? It isn't
>> anywhere near that figure.
>>
>> So as a percentage of the road user type, an equal or higher actual
>> number than a group with a larger number of members shows them to be
>> far worse.
>>
>
> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.

How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light, obstructs
the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?

On 15 May, 19:55, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Squashmewrote:
> > On 15 May, 14:34, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> In article <b7f23e01-f861-49aa-9095-aa441cf4e800
> >> @y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> >>>> The figures look even worse if you are to take them as a
> >>>> percentage of road user by type of vehicle. I'd say it would make
> >>>> cyclists at least a hundred times worse.
>
> >>> You'd SAY it, would you? But what's that worth? Have you some
> >>> statistics, or just gut feelings?
>
> >> 30,000,000 registered cars in the UK. How many bicycles? It isn't
> >> anywhere near that figure.
>
> >> So as a percentage of the road user type, an equal or higher actual
> >> number than a group with a larger number of members shows them to be
> >> far worse.
>
> > So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> > in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> > cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> > can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> > victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>
> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light, obstructs
> the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?

As I said "Almost always". Like exceeding the speed limit.

"Brimstone" <brimstone520-ng02@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light, obstructs
> the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?

Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
Circus, then?


-dan

On 15 May, 20:08, Daniel Barlow <d...@telent.net> wrote:
> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> > How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light, obstructs
> > the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>
> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> Circus, then?
>
> -dan

Looks like it was one of those damned hypothetical cyclists. They are
the worst by far. The things they can get up to!.

Daniel Barlow wrote:
> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-ng02@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>
> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> Circus, then?
>
Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?

On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> > "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> >> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>
> > Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> > times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> > Circus, then?
>
> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23484300-details/Charge+of+the+red+light+brigade/article.do

Suck it and see.

In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...

> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>
Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.

--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
> @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> > So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> > in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> > cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> > can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> > victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>
> Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
> subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>

As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.

Perhaps they should stop using the cameras to trap innocent speeders,
and refocus on red-light jumping cyclists, who, as motorists know, are
the real danger on the roads.

In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, squashme@gmail.com says...
> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
> > @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
> >
> > > So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> > > in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> > > cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> > > can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> > > victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
> >
> > Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
> > subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
> >
>
> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>
> Perhaps they should stop using the cameras to trap innocent speeders,
> and refocus on red-light jumping cyclists, who, as motorists know, are
> the real danger on the roads.
>
Or parhaps we should bring in a law against jay-walking, or jay-cycling?

On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> > "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> >> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>
> > Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> > times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> > Circus, then?
>
> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?

Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.

--
RoadPeace
http://www.roadpeace.org/
For road crash victims.

Doug wrote:
> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>
>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>> Piccadilly Circus, then?
>>
>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing
>> the red light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing
>> it?
>
> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.

Indeed I can Doug. Those who put themselves in vulnerable positions should
make sure they're behaving in such a manner so as not to increase the
possibility of getting hurt. Don't you agree?

In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...
> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
> > @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
> >
> > > So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> > > in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> > > cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> > > can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> > > victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
> >
> > Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
> > subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
> >
>
> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>
She wasn't speeding..


--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

Doug wrote:
> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>> Circus, then?
>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>
> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>
> --
> RoadPeace
> http://www.roadpeace.org/
> For road crash victims.

Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
lights?

--
Tony the Dragon

On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>> Circus, then?
> >> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>
> > Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> > than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> > Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> > You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>
> > --
> > RoadPeace
> >http://www.roadpeace.org/
> > For road crash victims.
>
> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> lights?
>
Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
red lights?

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

Doug wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>> --
>>> RoadPeace
>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>> For road crash victims.
>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>> lights?
>>
> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> red lights?

Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
police officer, where the lights are not working.
One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>
> --
> World Carfree Network
> http://www.worldcarfree.net/
> Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.
>


--
Tony the Dragon

On 17 May, 09:05, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
> @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> > On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
> > > @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> > > > So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> > > > in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> > > > cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> > > > can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> > > > victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>
> > > Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
> > > subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>
> > As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
> > guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
> > a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
> > strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>
> She wasn't speeding..
>

She thinks that she was:-

"Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when
she drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7
February last year."

http://news.scotsman.com/mobilephonedrivingban/Five-years-for-driver-who.3833105.jp

That may not be speeding in your world. You could have argued that she
was not playing a banjo, doing her nails, or eating a sandwich, and I
should have been forced to agree.

Conor formulated the question :
> In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
> @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...
>> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
>>> @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>>>
>>>> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
>>>> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
>>>> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
>>>> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
>>>> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>>>
>>> Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
>>> subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>>>
>>
>> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
>> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
>> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
>> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>>
> She wasn't speeding..

"Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when she
drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7 February
last year."

http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Five-years-for-driver-who.3833105.jp

--
Simon

On 17 May, 19:29, Simon D <simon...@msn.invalid> wrote:
> Conor formulated the question :
>
>
>
> > In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
> > @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...
> >> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
> >>> @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> >>>> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> >>>> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> >>>> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> >>>> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> >>>> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>
> >>> Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
> >>> subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>
> >> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
> >> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
> >> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
> >> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>
> > She wasn't speeding..
>
> "Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when she
> drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7 February
> last year."
>
> http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Five-years-for-driver-who.3833105.jp
>
> --
> Simon

Snap!!!

Bloody hell, there's an echo in here.

I blame Google. oogle.. ogle.... gle.