External-bearing BBs?

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Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible? Are the
shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks the same? I
haven't worked on enough of these to find out by myself yet.

I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near me is selling a set
of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for cheap, but need to know if the
two are compatible before putting my money down.

On May 12, 1:29 pm, Joao de Souza <n...@way.jose> wrote:
> Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible? Are the
> shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks the same? I
> haven't worked on enough of these to find out by myself yet.
>
> I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near me is selling a set
> of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for cheap, but need to know if the
> two are compatible before putting my money down.

Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:

http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm

On May 12, 1:49 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 12, 1:29 pm, Joao de Souza <n...@way.jose> wrote:
>
> > Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible? Are the
> > shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks the same? I
> > haven't worked on enough of these to find out by myself yet.
>
> > I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near me is selling a set
> > of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for cheap, but need to know if the
> > two are compatible before putting my money down.
>
> Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
> external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:
>
> http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm

Holy spit, you can get 'em in French!

Someone wrote:

>> Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible?
>> Are the shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks the
>> same? I haven't worked on enough of these to find out by myself
>> yet. I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near me is
>> selling a set of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for cheap, but
>> need to know if the two are compatible before putting my money
>> down.

> Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
> external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:

http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm

I don't see what holds the spindle and what sort of spindle fits that
assembly. I also doubt what the free-fit aluminum sleeve and a free
fit (no taper or press) spindle that seems to fit in that sleeve won't
fret giving a grinding squeaking BB. I think PW would do better with
a cross section view of the assembly than a shiny photograph with
inadequate words to explain what the selected view shows.

Jobst Brandt

On May 12, 2:28 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Someone wrote:
> >> Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible?
> >> Are the shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks the
> >> same?  I haven't worked on enough of these to find out by myself
> >> yet.  I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near me is
> >> selling a set of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for cheap, but
> >> need to know if the two are compatible before putting my money
> >> down.
> > Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
> > external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:
>
>  http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm
>
> I don't see what holds the spindle and what sort of spindle fits that
> assembly.  I also doubt what the free-fit aluminum sleeve and a free
> fit (no taper or press) spindle that seems to fit in that sleeve won't
> fret giving a grinding squeaking BB.  I think PW would do better with
> a cross section view of the assembly than a shiny photograph with
> inadequate words to explain what the selected view shows.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Would these steel outboard cups subject BB threads to more wear and
tear than do aluminum outboard cups?

>>> Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible?
>>> Are the shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks the
>>> same? I haven't worked on enough of these to find out by myself
>>> yet. I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near me is
>>> selling a set of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for cheap, but
>>> need to know if the two are compatible before putting my money
>>> down.

> Someone wrote:
>> Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
>> external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm
> I don't see what holds the spindle and what sort of spindle fits that
> assembly. I also doubt what the free-fit aluminum sleeve and a free
> fit (no taper or press) spindle that seems to fit in that sleeve won't
> fret giving a grinding squeaking BB. I think PW would do better with
> a cross section view of the assembly than a shiny photograph with
> inadequate words to explain what the selected view shows.


Try this:
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Dura-Ace/FC-7800-7803/SI_1F30H_Ge_v1_m56577569830605114.pdf

The new century brings new problems. This ain't your mum's crank format.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Nicholas Grieco wrote:

>>>> Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible?
>>>> Are the shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks
>>>> the same?  I haven't worked on enough of these to find out by
>>>> myself yet.  I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near
>>>> me is selling a set of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for
>>>> cheap, but need to know if the two are compatible before putting
>>>> my money down.

>>> Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate
>>> in external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:

 http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm

>> I don't see what holds the spindle and what sort of spindle fits
>> that assembly.  I also doubt what the free-fit aluminum sleeve and
>> a free fit (no taper or press) spindle that seems to fit in that
>> sleeve won't fret giving a grinding squeaking BB.  I think PW would
>> do better with a cross section view of the assembly than a shiny
>> photograph with inadequate words to explain what the selected view
>> shows.

> Would these steel outboard cups subject BB threads to more wear and
> tear than do aluminum outboard cups?

I don't believe outboard aluminum cups would last long, considering
that steel inboard cups destroy steel frame BB threads in longer use,
an experience I had after more then 150000 miles. If a tightly
installed steel right hand cup (made of bearing hardened steel) can
eat up steel BB shell threads, I believe that aluminum threads will be
eaten by fretting in a steel BB. I don't know what an aluminum BB
would do.

Jobst Brandt

Andrew Muzi wrote:

>>>> Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible?
>>>> Are the shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks
>>>> the same? I haven't worked on enough of these to find out by
>>>> myself yet. I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near
>>>> me is selling a set of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for
>>>> cheap, but need to know if the two are compatible before putting
>>>> my money down.

>>> Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate
>>> in external bearing BBs, check out the new Phil Wood:

http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm

>> I don't see what holds the spindle and what sort of spindle fits
>> that assembly. I also doubt what the free-fit aluminum sleeve and
>> a free fit (no taper or press) spindle that seems to fit in that
>> sleeve won't fret giving a grinding squeaking BB. I think PW would
>> do better with a cross section view of the assembly than a shiny
>> photograph with inadequate words to explain what the selected view
>> shows.

> Try this:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Dura-Ace/FC-7800-7803/SI_1F30H_Ge_v1_m56577569830605114.pdf

> The new century brings new problems. This ain't your mum's crank format.

Exploded views are not as good as a cross section drawing, but then we
are all proud of our 3D CAD systems and need to show them.

Jobst Brandt

Hank wrote:
>
> bfd wrote:
> >
> > Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
> > external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:
> >
> >http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm
>
> Holy spit, you can get 'em in French!

Isn't that a bit like getting a saddle for an epileptic horse? Sooner
or later there will be other issues.

Chalo

Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> I don't believe outboard aluminum cups would last long, considering
> that steel inboard cups destroy steel frame BB threads in longer use,
> an experience I had after more then 150000 miles. If a tightly
> installed steel right hand cup (made of bearing hardened steel) can
> eat up steel BB shell threads, I believe that aluminum threads will be
> eaten by fretting in a steel BB. I don't know what an aluminum BB
> would do.

The one I made has been fine for the last nine years, despite
accumulating enough miles to wear out one set of very large cartridge
bearings:

http://picasaweb.google.com/chalo.colina/BikeStuff/photo#5106782846418368274

Upon extracting the cups to press in new cartridges, I found the
threads and BB faces to be in fine condition. The stainless steel
spindle was only mildly burnished where it rode in the bearing inner
races.

Chalo

In article
<9f9865d3-6136-4349-a49e-5cb45104407f@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hank wrote:
> >
> > bfd wrote:
> > >
> > > Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
> > > external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:
> > >
> > >http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm
> >
> > Holy spit, you can get 'em in French!
>
> Isn't that a bit like getting a saddle for an epileptic horse? Sooner
> or later there will be other issues.
>
> Chalo

As the old tale about delaying disaster goes, "maybe the horse will
sing!"

I don't think there's anything wrong with throwing down for a new BB for
an old frame. Heck, I'm currently trying to figure out if I should ride
a Mountech-equipped MTB as-is, or replace the rear derailer as a
preemptive measure.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Hank wrote:
> > >
> > > bfd wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
> > > > external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm
> > >
> > > Holy spit, you can get 'em in French!
> >
> > Isn't that a bit like getting a saddle for an epileptic horse? Sooner
> > or later there will be other issues.
>
> As the old tale about delaying disaster goes, "maybe the horse will
> sing!"
>
> I don't think there's anything wrong with throwing down for a new BB for
> an old frame.

It's not oldness that is the source of the problem, it's Fwenchness.
You can lay down a bundle for a BB, cranks, and pedals to make that
smelly, leg-humping little dog learn a new trick or two, but the next
thing you know it will want a headset, which will then make you find a
new fork. Then it will be a seatpost in 23.7mm or whatever ungodly
obsolete size, and then-- joy of joys-- the freewheel turns out to be
Fwench (and worn out).

Pretty soon you've spent a small fortune, more than enough to get a
real bike. But it's still a peculiar, smelly, leg-humping little dog
that probably has more bad surprises in store.

Life is too short to suffer Fwench bikes or 26 tpi Raleighs. At the
first appearance of trouble, they should be recycled. Better yet,
don't even wait for the first trouble to appear and risk developing an
affinity for an inadvisable machine. Save yourself and several other
people a whole lot of trouble and cut the bastard up before disposing
of it.

Chalo

On May 12, 2:29 pm, Joao de Souza <n...@way.jose> wrote:
> Quick question on external-bearing BBs: Are they all compatible? Are the
> shaft diameters and spacing of these integrated cranks the same? I
> haven't worked on enough of these to find out by myself yet.
>
> I have a Shimano FC-R700 crankset, and someone near me is selling a set
> of Zipp ceramic external-bearing BB for cheap, but need to know if the
> two are compatible before putting my money down.

Don't think they are compatible. Use a shimano BB, and when the
bearing goes south, have a competent bike shop replace those bearings
with Phil bearings. Ceramic(hybrid no doubt), unless the same price,
isn't a good place to put your $, IMO.

Chalo wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> Chalo wrote:
>>> Hank wrote:
>>>> bfd wrote:
>>>>> Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
>>>>> external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm
>>>> Holy spit, you can get 'em in French!
>>> Isn't that a bit like getting a saddle for an epileptic horse? Sooner
>>> or later there will be other issues.
>> As the old tale about delaying disaster goes, "maybe the horse will
>> sing!"
>>
>> I don't think there's anything wrong with throwing down for a new BB for
>> an old frame.
>
> It's not oldness that is the source of the problem, it's Fwenchness.
> You can lay down a bundle for a BB, cranks, and pedals to make that
> smelly, leg-humping little dog learn a new trick or two, but the next
> thing you know it will want a headset, which will then make you find a
> new fork. Then it will be a seatpost in 23.7mm or whatever ungodly
> obsolete size, and then-- joy of joys-- the freewheel turns out to be
> Fwench (and worn out).
>
> Pretty soon you've spent a small fortune, more than enough to get a
> real bike. But it's still a peculiar, smelly, leg-humping little dog
> that probably has more bad surprises in store.
>
> Life is too short to suffer Fwench bikes or 26 tpi Raleighs. At the
> first appearance of trouble, they should be recycled. Better yet,
> don't even wait for the first trouble to appear and risk developing an
> affinity for an inadvisable machine. Save yourself and several other
> people a whole lot of trouble and cut the bastard up before disposing
> of it.

well said!

On May 13, 9:11 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> >  Chalo wrote:
>
> > > Hank wrote:
>
> > > > bfd wrote:
>
> > > > > Don't know much about Zipp bearings, but if you want the ultimate in
> > > > > external bearing bbs, check out the new Phil Wood:
>
> > > > >http://www.philwood.com/BB-Outboard%20Set.htm
>
> > > > Holy spit, you can get 'em in French!
>
> > > Isn't that a bit like getting a saddle for an epileptic horse?  Sooner
> > > or later there will be other issues.
>
> > As the old tale about delaying disaster goes, "maybe the horse will
> > sing!"
>
> > I don't think there's anything wrong with throwing down for a new BB for
> > an old frame.
>
> It's not oldness that is the source of the problem, it's Fwenchness.
> You can lay down a bundle for a BB, cranks, and pedals to make that
> smelly, leg-humping little dog learn a new trick or two, but the next
> thing you know it will want a headset, which will then make you find a
> new fork.  Then it will be a seatpost in 23.7mm or whatever ungodly
> obsolete size, and then-- joy of joys-- the freewheel turns out to be
> Fwench (and worn out).
>
> Pretty soon you've spent a small fortune, more than enough to get a
> real bike.  But it's still a peculiar, smelly, leg-humping little dog
> that probably has more bad surprises in store.
>
> Life is too short to suffer Fwench bikes or 26 tpi Raleighs.  At the
> first appearance of trouble, they should be recycled.  Better yet,
> don't even wait for the first trouble to appear and risk developing an
> affinity for an inadvisable machine.  Save yourself and several other
> people a whole lot of trouble and cut the bastard up before disposing
> of it.
>
> Chalo

A good French bike with the best French parts will have plenty of time
to ingratiate itself. My old Peugeot mountain bike, from the top of
their range in the late 80s, early 90s, was not well fitted to me (as
I now realize), but in the ten years the original parts lasted I
became awfully attached to it. It only showed its unattractive side
when the original best quality parts wore out and, as you say, no new
parts of equivalent quality were available. Then, within the short
span of two years, it became an unreliable nuisance and my annual
riding distance was almost halved. I gave it to the LBS for the
goodwill because my next bike was bought from overseas by mailorder;
he fixed the Peugeot and it still goes in the hands of its new and
obviously proud owner (he's always all smiles when I meet him on the
road), who may think that parts that wear out in two or three years
are acceptable.

But, I'll tell you what, I don't think many modern bikes will outlast
that Peugeot. Reason: the they have a semi-integrated headsets, and I
think those will wreck the head tube before the rest of the bike wears
out. My Trek also has a semi-integrated headset, and I carry a short,
lightweight Park headset spanner bolted behind my water bottle, and
have the headset adjustment on my shortest cycle of routine
maintenance; in fact, it is the only item on the 3-monthly maintenance
schedule as the totally enclosed chain gets checked and waxed only
every six months.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

Andre Jute wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Life is too short to suffer Fwench bikes or 26 tpi Raleighs. At the
> > first appearance of trouble, they should be recycled. Better yet,
> > don't even wait for the first trouble to appear and risk developing an
> > affinity for an inadvisable machine. Save yourself and several other
> > people a whole lot of trouble and cut the bastard up before disposing
> > of it.
>
> A good French bike with the best French parts will have plenty of time
> to ingratiate itself. My old Peugeot mountain bike, from the top of
> their range in the late 80s, early 90s,

If I understand correctly, Peugeots had gotten with the program by the
time MTBs were the dominant bikes on the scene. If that's true, then
there is nothing wrong with a Peugeot MTB versus another sort of MTB
from the same time period. Same with Raleighs; they gave up using
proprietary thread standards by sometime in the '80s, and after that
their main problems were aesthetic.

French origin is never a problem per se; it's the French thread system
that French manufacturers insisted on using long after it constituted
a disservice to themselves and their customers. All the "wonderful"
French road bikes of the bike boom years were thus afflicted. And if
some misguided parts manufacturer had seen fit to make French-threaded
parts all this time, the French thread folly would have been nothing
more than a source of confusion. That didn't happen, though. French-
threaded headsets, BBs, freewheel hubs, pedals, etc., are all
unavailable historical curiosities that render their respective bikes
practically unmaintainable-- $120 bearing cups for $400 cranks
notwithstanding.

The revival of the obsolete French 650B tire and rim size by Rivendell
looks particularly foolish to those of us who worked in bike shops in
the '80s and '90s and had to break the sorry news to customers that
their otherwise perfectly decent bikes couldn't get routine repairs at
a reasonable cost.

Chalo

On May 13, 9:17 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The revival of the obsolete French 650B tire and rim size by Rivendell
> looks particularly foolish to those of us who worked in bike shops in
> the '80s and '90s and had to break the sorry news to customers that
> their otherwise perfectly decent bikes couldn't get routine repairs at
> a reasonable cost.
>
I disagree, its not only Rivendell pushing the 650B (584mm) wheel
size. For example, QBP, arguably the largest parts distributor in the
US is pushing the 650B Bleriots and supplies all the needed wheel
goodies like tires, rims and complete wheels. Further, other
distributors are getting into the act.

Moreover, Kirk Pacenti is getting companies like Soma, Velo Orange,
and I believe Surly, into the new "27.5 mtb tire" movement.

For many of the "believers," 650b is the new black!

bfd wrote:
>
> For many of the "believers," 650b is the new black!

Rivendell is the new Fwench!

Chalo

On May 13, 5:17 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> > Chalo wrote:
>
> > > Life is too short to suffer Fwench bikes or 26 tpi Raleighs.  At the
> > > first appearance of trouble, they should be recycled.  Better yet,
> > > don't even wait for the first trouble to appear and risk developing an
> > > affinity for an inadvisable machine.  Save yourself and several other
> > > people a whole lot of trouble and cut the bastard up before disposing
> > > of it.
>
> > A good French bike with the best French parts will have plenty of time
> > to ingratiate itself. My old Peugeot mountain bike, from the top of
> > their range in the late 80s, early 90s,
>
> If I understand correctly, Peugeots had gotten with the program by the
> time MTBs were the dominant bikes on the scene.  If that's true, then
> there is nothing wrong with a Peugeot MTB versus another sort of MTB
> from the same time period.  

That may or may not be so. The one I'm talking about had Sachs-Huret
components, and the first major difficulty arose when the oval
chainring couldn't be replaced. When the only available bottom bracket
was visibly a cheap piece of rubbish, and didn't last, I gave up on
it. Admittedly, in between the rear axle exploded and the sprocket set
just folded up, and the LBS was apologizing before he even showed me
replacement parts, "I know you'll call this names, Andre, but it's
what I can get." That's what made me conclude the threading was weird.
This was before I discovered Sheldon's site and read that there was,
just like in cars, more than one thread. It was the experience of that
Peugeot which interested me in bike mechanics, which led me to Sheldon
and eventually to my love of comfort bikes with internal gear hubs.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

>> Chalo wrote:
>>> Life is too short to suffer Fwench bikes or 26 tpi Raleighs. At the
>>> first appearance of trouble, they should be recycled. Better yet,
>>> don't even wait for the first trouble to appear and risk developing an
>>> affinity for an inadvisable machine. Save yourself and several other
>>> people a whole lot of trouble and cut the bastard up before disposing
>>> of it.

> Andre Jute wrote:
>> A good French bike with the best French parts will have plenty of time
>> to ingratiate itself. My old Peugeot mountain bike, from the top of
>> their range in the late 80s, early 90s,

Chalo wrote:
> If I understand correctly, Peugeots had gotten with the program by the
> time MTBs were the dominant bikes on the scene. If that's true, then
> there is nothing wrong with a Peugeot MTB versus another sort of MTB
> from the same time period. Same with Raleighs; they gave up using
> proprietary thread standards by sometime in the '80s, and after that
> their main problems were aesthetic.
>
> French origin is never a problem per se; it's the French thread system
> that French manufacturers insisted on using long after it constituted
> a disservice to themselves and their customers. All the "wonderful"
> French road bikes of the bike boom years were thus afflicted. And if
> some misguided parts manufacturer had seen fit to make French-threaded
> parts all this time, the French thread folly would have been nothing
> more than a source of confusion. That didn't happen, though. French-
> threaded headsets, BBs, freewheel hubs, pedals, etc., are all
> unavailable historical curiosities that render their respective bikes
> practically unmaintainable-- $120 bearing cups for $400 cranks
> notwithstanding.
>
> The revival of the obsolete French 650B tire and rim size by Rivendell
> looks particularly foolish to those of us who worked in bike shops in
> the '80s and '90s and had to break the sorry news to customers that
> their otherwise perfectly decent bikes couldn't get routine repairs at
> a reasonable cost.

Good summary.

Several European brands sold regular Asian bikes, rebadged, both road
and MTB models, in various years for the US market. Raleigh's
Nottingham bikes were 26tpi right to the bitter end. By that time
[1985], the US models built at Nottingham were down to pretty much only
Sports and DL-1 Roadsters[1], other bicycles being mostly Taiwan ROC by
then.

[1] Team Pro, Pro and Comp were built at the Carlton shop, not Nottingham
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **