Charges rec'd in death of 2 NorCal cyclists

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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news

You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On May 9, 5:41 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>
> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.

Old news. Look at the dateline on this SJ Merc article:
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8906295

On May 9, 5:41 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>
> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau


That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
premeditated type candidate.


Tberk

On May 9, 6:56 pm, TBerk <bayareab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 9, 5:41 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>
> > You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> > charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
>
> > --
> > Ryan Cousineau
>
> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> premeditated type candidate.
>
> Tberk

I do too but contrary to the report, I doubt he will do any time in
jail. Why did he fall asleep? Any word on that?

On May 10, 1:56 am, TBerk <bayareab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 9, 5:41 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>
> > You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> > charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
>
> > --
> > Ryan Cousineau
>
> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> premeditated type candidate.
>
> Tberk

The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?

And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
any time...

Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

In article
<3ed17427-6212-4c08-b5a9-7903661a7db5@b9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Robert Chung <rechung@gmail.com> wrote:

> On May 9, 5:41 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
> >
> > You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> > charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
>
> Old news. Look at the dateline on this SJ Merc article:
> http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8906295

Oops. I hadn't seen it reported previously.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

In article
<de0e78e2-75cb-4421-a811-5bc57c5067e8@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 10, 1:56 am, TBerk <bayareab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 9, 5:41 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
> >
> > > You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > > policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> > > charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> >
> > > --
> > > Ryan Cousineau
> >
> > That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> > premeditated type candidate.
> >
> > Tberk
>
> The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
>
> And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> any time...
>
> Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.

It's worth comparing it to the sentences in other negligent-death cases
that don't involve cars or bicycles. The sentences are always pretty
light compared to something like manslaughter.

The element of intentionality is important in sentencing,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On May 10, 9:20 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Old news. Look at the dateline on this SJ Merc article:
> >http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8906295
>
> Oops. I hadn't seen it reported previously.

It was reported locally. Cyclingnews.com picked it up a month late.

Andre Jute wrote:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news

>>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
>>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
>>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.

>> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
>> premeditated type candidate.

> The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?

> And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> any time...

> Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.

Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
police in which we hope to ride. The reason a harsh sentence may not
be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
policy they enforce. Documented and reviewed is that these officers
serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. If this were Abu Ghraib or
Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.

Jobst Brandt

On May 10, 9:04 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
>  http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>
> >>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> >>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> >>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> >> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> >> premeditated type candidate.
> > The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> > seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> > behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> > sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
> > And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> > sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> > any time...
> > Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.
>
> Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
> police in which we hope to ride.  The reason a harsh sentence may not
> be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> policy they enforce.  Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> serve consecutive 12-hour shifts.  If this were Abu Ghraib or
> Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> Jobst Brandt

I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
in Santa Clara County politics.

I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
their loss.

Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.

Nor am I impressed with your attempt to blame the supervisors. The
policeman who killed those drivers should take responsibility for his
actions; he could have slept in the stationhouse until he was fit to
drive.

If this policeman's superiors are culpable, they should be in the dock
with him under criminal charges. And we would like to hear from the
politicians, apparently your pals, that disciplinary action is taken
against them for their poor judgement.

There was a time when a policeman was held to a higher standard than
the other criminals on American streets.

Two innocent men are dead, and you, Jobst Brandt, want to play
politics. That's contemptible.

What's more, if cyclists trade away the lives of two of their own for
no greater gain than the vague wishful nothingness of "the
relationship between bicyclists and police in which we hope to ride",
you will be seen as weak and powerless and treated with the contempt
you deserve. You don't earn respect by snivelling and selling out.

Andre Jute
Disappointed

In article
<de0e78e2-75cb-4421-a811-5bc57c5067e8@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 10, 1:56 am, TBerk <bayareab...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 9, 5:41 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
> >
> > > You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> > > policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> > > charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> >
> > > --
> > > Ryan Cousineau
> >
> > That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> > premeditated type candidate.
> >
> > Tberk
>
> The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
>
> And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> any time...
>
> Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.

We have to wait for the outcome of the civil action.
I was talking to a policeman who said that he once
crossed the threshold of a residence without an
invitation, probable cause, or a warrant and the
city paid of to the tune of $20000 without argument.
Nor did he do anything actionable in the residence
to compound his transgression.

--
Michael Press

In article
<c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762cebd@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.

It would if you had to serve it. Do you know how many rights
you have to sign away when you serve a supervised probation?
For instance, police may enter your residence without a warrant.

--
Michael Press

Andre Jute wrote:
> On May 10, 9:04 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>>
>>>>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
>>>>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
>>>>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
>>>> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
>>>> premeditated type candidate.
>>> The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
>>> seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
>>> behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
>>> sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
>>> And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
>>> sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
>>> any time...
>>> Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.
>> Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
>> police in which we hope to ride. The reason a harsh sentence may not
>> be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
>> policy they enforce. Documented and reviewed is that these officers
>> serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. If this were Abu Ghraib or
>> Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
>> are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
> I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
> in Santa Clara County politics.
>
> I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
> dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
> their loss.
>
> Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> Nor am I impressed with your attempt to blame the supervisors. The
> policeman who killed those drivers should take responsibility for his
> actions; he could have slept in the stationhouse until he was fit to
> drive.[...]

Sleeping on the job is grounds for both immediate termination and denial
of unemployment benefits in the US. The deputy may well have been faced
with the choice of working overtired or losing his livelihood.

Note that in US hospital, it is routine to make medical interns work 24
to 36 hour shifts, yet management is never held criminally liable when
mistakes are made due to fatigue. (Of course, the US medical system is
rotten at the core, but that is another subject.)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On May 10, 7:24 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:

> I was talking to a policeman who said that he once
> crossed the threshold of a residence without an
> invitation, probable cause, or a warrant and the
> city paid of to the tune of $20000 without argument.
> Nor did he do anything actionable in the residence
> to compound his transgression.

An armed man coming into my house without legal reason doesn't need
compounding to be actionable. The role of peace officer comes with
responsibility.

>Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
> police in which we hope to ride. The reason a harsh sentence may not
> be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> policy they enforce. Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. If this were Abu Ghraib or
> Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> Jobst Brandt

>>I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
>>in Santa Clara County politics.

>>I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
>>dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
>>their loss.

Please identify the "cynical attitude" where Jobst showed disrespect to the
families of those involved in this tragedy.

You don't have to pass the AP english comprehension exam to recognize that
Jobst was pointing out that blame might lie in multiple places, not just
with the police officer who ran the cyclists down.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Andre Jute" <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762cebd@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On May 10, 9:04 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>
> >>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> >>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road.
> >>> Likely
> >>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> >> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> >> premeditated type candidate.
> > The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> > seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> > behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> > sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
> > And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> > sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> > any time...
> > Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.
>
> Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
> police in which we hope to ride. The reason a harsh sentence may not
> be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> policy they enforce. Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> serve consecutive 12-hour shifts. If this were Abu Ghraib or
> Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> Jobst Brandt

I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
in Santa Clara County politics.

I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
their loss.

Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.

Nor am I impressed with your attempt to blame the supervisors. The
policeman who killed those drivers should take responsibility for his
actions; he could have slept in the stationhouse until he was fit to
drive.

If this policeman's superiors are culpable, they should be in the dock
with him under criminal charges. And we would like to hear from the
politicians, apparently your pals, that disciplinary action is taken
against them for their poor judgement.

There was a time when a policeman was held to a higher standard than
the other criminals on American streets.

Two innocent men are dead, and you, Jobst Brandt, want to play
politics. That's contemptible.

What's more, if cyclists trade away the lives of two of their own for
no greater gain than the vague wishful nothingness of "the
relationship between bicyclists and police in which we hope to ride",
you will be seen as weak and powerless and treated with the contempt
you deserve. You don't earn respect by snivelling and selling out.

Andre Jute
Disappointed

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> You don't have to pass the AP english comprehension exam to recognize
> that Jobst was pointing out that blame might lie in multiple places,
> not just with the police officer who ran the cyclists down.

Speaking of English comprehension, Jobst should get a year just for this:
"Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and police in
which we hope to ride."

Bill "say wha?!?" S.

Law enforcement is so good at closing its ranks in incidents like this. That
Deputy Cousins is getting charge at all is amazing, though "just" two
misdemeanors and not felonies such as vehicular manslaughter. Any charges
being filed tells us most likely what actually occurred is far worse then what the
two low-grade charges indicate. There is also quite a bit in the news, if to be
believed, that the Sheriff's department did not follow proper procedure at the
scene of the crash, losing valuable evidence. This is not uncommon also.

On May 10, 7:25 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On May 10, 9:04 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
>
> >>  http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may10news
>
> >>>>> You will remember this as the incident when the (literal) sleeping
> >>>>> policeman mowed down two cyclists on the other side of the road. Likely
> >>>>> charge against the county deputy would be vehicular manslaughter.
> >>>> That would seem the appropriate charge. He is likely not a
> >>>> premeditated type candidate.
> >>> The two years mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a likely sentence
> >>> seems to me low for a case where someone by negligently going to sleep
> >>> behind the wheel killed two people and injured another. Would the
> >>> sentence be per death and injury, and run consecutively?
> >>> And now we're told by Ryan, presumably from experience, that the
> >>> sombambulist driver -- a policeman no less! -- is not likely to serve
> >>> any time...
> >>> Looks to me like a cyclist's life is held pretty cheap.
> >> Such comments don't help the relationship between bicyclists and
> >> police in which we hope to ride.  The reason a harsh sentence may not
> >> be given the driver is that major fault lies with supervisors and
> >> policy they enforce.  Documented and reviewed is that these officers
> >> serve consecutive 12-hour shifts.  If this were Abu Ghraib or
> >> Guantanamo, supervisory culpability would not be considered, but we
> >> are a bit more civilized in Santa Clara County than that.
>
> >> Jobst Brandt
>
> > I wasn't aware that the RBT charter limits comments to those "helpful"
> > in Santa Clara County politics.
>
> > I certaintly hope no one in the families and other loved ones of the
> > dead and injured cyclists families reads your cynical attitude to
> > their loss.
>
> > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> > Nor am I impressed with your attempt to blame the supervisors. The
> > policeman who killed those drivers should take responsibility for his
> > actions; he could have slept in the stationhouse until he was fit to
> > drive.[...]
>
> Sleeping on the job is grounds for both immediate termination and denial
> of unemployment benefits in the US. The deputy may well have been faced
> with the choice of working overtired or losing his livelihood.

There is no general law in the United States prohibiting sleeping on
the job -- and the sheriffs collective bargaining agreement may
specifically define good cause for firing as not including falling
asleep on the job. Who knows? I know that falling asleep is not
sufficient to deny unemployment benefits in Oregon -- which requires
insubordination, among other things. Falling asleep behind the wheel,
however, is negligence, and the sheriff is subject to prosecution
under the California negligent/vehicular homicide law --
unfortunately. I always think negligently caused injuries should be
addressed by the civil law and not the criminal law.
>
> Note that in US hospital, it is routine to make medical interns work 24
> to 36 hour shifts, yet management is never held criminally liable when
> mistakes are made due to fatigue. (Of course, the US medical system is
> rotten at the core, but that is another subject.)
>

I am not impressed by the fact that the sheriff had to work two twelve
hour shifts. He had ten to eleven hours off between shifts, and he
was young -- 27. I worked ambulance in almost the same area (San
Jose) and worked 12, 14, 24, 36 and 48 hour shifts. I slept when I
could, and I never fell asleep behind the wheel. My circumstance were
different, though, because I always had a partner. Things might have
been different had I been alone. -- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 11 May 2008 11:31:39 -0700, RS <r_schiller@comcast.net> wrote:

>Law enforcement is so good at closing its ranks in incidents like this. That
>Deputy Cousins is getting charge at all is amazing, though "just" two
>misdemeanors and not felonies such as vehicular manslaughter. Any charges
>being filed tells us most likely what actually occurred is far worse then what the
>two low-grade charges indicate.

Yes, too typical. They protect their own unless the crimes are so
serious as to be undeniable. Bringing misdemeanor charges that will
result in a slap on the wrist allows them to avoid bringing more
serious charges while still giving the appearance of an unbiased
investigation.

> There is also quite a bit in the news, if to be
>believed, that the Sheriff's department did not follow proper procedure at the
>scene of the crash, losing valuable evidence. This is not uncommon also.

I use to be very good friends with a Forensic investigator. He is a
very unbiased scientist. The stories he tells of complete incompetence
on the part of the police are frightening... and the stories of
outright manipulation of evidence and failure to tell the complete
truth on the stand by other were incredible.

On May 11, 1:29 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <c0eb793e-c853-45b9-acc1-e9828762c...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
>  Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Nor was I calling for "harsh" sentences. I was observing that a two
> > year sentence for a negligent murder, if served, would be lenient. A
> > suspended sentence doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.
>
> It would if you had to serve it. Do you know how many rights
> you have to sign away when you serve a supervised probation?
> For instance, police may enter your residence without a warrant.
>
> --
> Michael Press

Hasn't it penetrated your thick skull that by neligently running over
these two cyclists who did him no harm and killing them, this sleeping
policeman took away all their rights, forever?

Andre Jute
Cyclist