Pacing strategy for La Marmotte (cyclo with 4 mountains)

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Alex made a very good and informative model of La Marmotte.
Link: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1808542

What I learned from it. With pacing the climbs at approx 250w and doing the other sections with < 200w it is possible for a 70kg rider to finish within 7.5h. My FTP is approx. the same as the virtual rider in the model Alex made: FTP 310w and bodyweight at 70kg. I am a little bit lighter (68.1kg this morning), my FTP is the same but I probably have less endurance/training years.

But an AP of 200w and an NP of 233w seems possible for 7.5hours. This year I did one long event of 6.5hours with AP of 170w but an NP of 237w.

So I will try to pace myself at PE and the fact that I can reach my goal with 250 watts uphill. When 240w feels easy I will do 250w. When 250w feels easy at the first climb I will stay at 250w because it's hard enough. At the Telegraph I will try to adjust my pacing when my PE is too high or too low but keep in mind that 250w is good also when it still feels easy. At the last 8kms of the galibier I can go harder when I can sustain the 250w. But I decrease my poweroutput when climbing the Telegraph feels heavy.

At the moment I can do 2 hour rides with 250 watts. It's not very hard.
But 3 hour rides at 250 watts are possible but hard at the end and the next day. I am doing now more L3 traning to get comfortable at riding at 250w. I feel the L4 work did boost my FTP but riding at an IF of 0.8 has become more difficult.

Now I am working on my nutrition plan. Why do I favor American products?
My nutrition plan is now based on: liquid intake, carb intake, electrolyte intake.
1.) I will have 2 or 3 bottle cages with a bottle. One with only water and one with a maltodextrine (fantomalt, no glucose) solution (50gram/liter).
2.) I can't get all the carbs from the faltomalt solution so I will get the rest from gels. I will try the hammernutrition because they have gels with maltodextrine (Last year I used maxim gels but they contain only glucose)
3.) I will use some hammernutrition endurolyte caps to get electrolytes because the fantomalt solution and the water will not contain electrolytes.

I will try to reach 75gram of carbs / hour and 900ml / hour when climbing, max 1000ml/hour. When it's cold I will try to drink less but eat the same. Because my daily routine is drinking coffee I think I need caffeine during the ride. So I will try get some caffeine (not too much) during the whole ride from some of the gels.

Alex;

This is great! Do you accept Paypal? Have you compared results to an actual file from the race? I have not done La Marmotte, but two years ago I did a training ride on a road called Skyline Drive in Virginia that I would love to compare the model to.

Alex;

This is great! Do you accept Paypal? Have you compared results to an actual file from the race? I have not done La Marmotte, but two years ago I did a training ride on a road called Skyline Drive in Virginia that I would love to compare the model to.
I see that I made a fault in my post above.
Alex made a pacing strategy for a 79kg rider with a FTP of 310w (the 2008 rider/virtual rider) and he used the powerfile from a 70kg rider who did La Marmotte in 7:04:52 (7:08:52)(2007 rider).

The 2007 rider (70kg) did the 4 climbs at
Glandon: AP 242 watts (section marked by Alex)
Telegraph: AP 252 watts (section marked by Alex)
Galibier: AP 241 watts (section marked by Alex)
Alpe d'Huez 263W (section marked by 2007 rider)

Total
AP 199W / NP 235W
Duration 7:04:52 (7:08:52)
175km (24.7km/h)

I am still curious what time the 2007 rider did for those climbs (sections marked by Alex) and where the climbs started according to the sections marked by Alex.

The virtual 2008 rider (79kg) pacing strategy has an estimated time of: 7:19 with a pacing AP of approx 250-255 watts on the long climbs.

I feel the L4 work did boost my FTP but riding at an IF of 0.8 has become more difficult.I have experienced similar things. I think that for the ride that you are planning to do, you need to find a balance between the two. I do not know what the exact balance is but what I have done in the past is 2:1 L4 to L3 (2 days L4 for every 1 day L3) when preparing for a 40K ITT, but perhaps 1:1 or 1.5:1 is better for your goal.

Now I am working on my nutrition plan. Why do I favor American products?.I like Hammer's HEED and Hammer Gel. I'm not going to say that they work better than other products, I like them mostly for their ingredients more than anything else. Some of their claims for other products seem a bit over the top.

I think caffeine is useful towards the end of the day. After 4-5 hours, if I stop for a coffee or maybe a Coke, the sugar and caffeine have me really flying for the next hour or so.

...I like Hammer's HEED and Hammer Gel. I'm not going to say that they work better than other products, I like them mostly for their ingredients more than anything else. Some of their claims for other products seem a bit over the top.

I think caffeine is useful towards the end of the day. After 4-5 hours, if I stop for a coffee or maybe a Coke, the sugar and caffeine have me really flying for the next hour or so.Agreed on both counts. Hammer makes some good products and a much but not all of their philosophy rings true. I like their gel and buy it in bulk which beats the heck out of lots of sticky used gel packages in your pockets and have really come to prefer Heed over other drinks. I like their Recoverite as well.

I also like Cliff Shot Blocks as a semi solid food that is still easy to digest when the pace is hot. But for rides over 5 hours or so I really like some "real" food added to all the energy stuff. I mean something like a roast beef sandwich or cream cheese and jelly rolled up in a tortilla and sliced into bite sized rolls. The former for less intense long rides with breaks and the latter for long races where the pace doesn't back off too much and I'll do my eating on the bike. I also agree with Steve that some caffeine and sugar late in the ride is really nice.

-Dave

But for rides over 5 hours or so I really like some "real" food added to all the energy stuff. I mean something like a roast beef sandwich or cream cheese and jelly rolled up in a tortilla and sliced into bite sized rolls. It seems to me to be a bit more common in Europe than in the States to eat "real" food on longer rides but I agree that being able to sink your teeth into something like bread and meat feel good after a series of Clif Bars and Hammer Gels (not that they are bad, but...). :)

Alex;

This is great! Do you accept Paypal? Have you compared results to an actual file from the race? I have not done La Marmotte, but two years ago I did a training ride on a road called Skyline Drive in Virginia that I would love to compare the model to.Funny you should say that...

Paypal? Yes I do, I need to for coaching internationally.

For this pacing optimisation? No, well not yet! The question of commercialing it has been asked of me by several people already, which would indicate there is certainly some interest.

At this stage I think a nominal fee for re-couping some of the development time would be sufficient, since I would run the model as a service in the first instance and maybe someone else can incorporate it into software or an online solution. But I ain't the only one who's done this but perhaps mine just look nicer ;)

Really I have done this for two reasons:
- sheer academic interest, I have been using some dormant brain cells that are loving the attention
- I want to find ways to help my athletes go faster

Model has been refined some more since that Marmotte one I posted. I'm going to re-run it and see what we get. I think <7:30 for the rider shown will be a challenge and will suggest we drop slightly to an IF~0.74.

At the same time, we are hoping to see his FTP and long duration MMP increase by then. We will know for sure when we next test. Not far away now.

But I am working on something else ever cooler than event optimiation (but a related topic), so I am on the lookout for power files for timed events with a detailed elevation profile and relatively benign conditions (or wind conditions that are known per segment). Also need total mass of bike+rider.

Profiling the course via the model would be an output and can be shared with providers of suitable files.

If a rider knows their CdA and Crr for the day of the event, that would be a bonus but is not essential if power and elevation data is accurate (and wind not too bad). They would become case study data points.

All data treated in confidence or can just be supplied as an anonymous file.

I don't want to say what it is though just yet.

Anyone intrerested?

I will acknowledge any help provided where this doesn't conflict with confidentiality.

I have experienced similar things. I think that for the ride that you are planning to do, you need to find a balance between the two. I do not know what the exact balance is but what I have done in the past is 2:1 L4 to L3 (2 days L4 for every 1 day L3) when preparing for a 40K ITT, but perhaps 1:1 or 1.5:1 is better for your goal.

I like Hammer's HEED and Hammer Gel. I'm not going to say that they work better than other products, I like them mostly for their ingredients more than anything else. Some of their claims for other products seem a bit over the top.

I think caffeine is useful towards the end of the day. After 4-5 hours, if I stop for a coffee or maybe a Coke, the sugar and caffeine have me really flying for the next hour or so.I now try to do it at a 1:1 ratio. My long distance power is my weakest link.
I will try to use the caffeine during the whole ride but start low and end a litle bit higher.
Agreed on both counts. Hammer makes some good products and a much but not all of their philosophy rings true. I like their gel and buy it in bulk which beats the heck out of lots of sticky used gel packages in your pockets and have really come to prefer Heed over other drinks. I like their Recoverite as well.

I also like Cliff Shot Blocks as a semi solid food that is still easy to digest when the pace is hot. But for rides over 5 hours or so I really like some "real" food added to all the energy stuff. I mean something like a roast beef sandwich or cream cheese and jelly rolled up in a tortilla and sliced into bite sized rolls. The former for less intense long rides with breaks and the latter for long races where the pace doesn't back off too much and I'll do my eating on the bike. I also agree with Steve that some caffeine and sugar late in the ride is really nice.

-Dave No but I believe in the maltodextrin. I only don't understand that they say that maltodextrin doesn't get high insulin levels and that that's reason of a steady glucose level in your blood with maltodextrin. But the GI (glycemic index) of maltodextrin is 130, compared to 100 of glucose. So the insuline response is larger for the maltodextrin.

I normally just eat solid food during rides. But for long/hard rides I prefer liquid food such as gels.
It seems to me to be a bit more common in Europe than in the States to eat "real" food on longer rides but I agree that being able to sink your teeth into something like bread and meat feel good after a series of Clif Bars and Hammer Gels (not that they are bad, but...). :)After the finish I will eat plenty of real food: pizza's, many pizza's. I think I will eat two of them while waiting for my girlfriend to finish. And after she finish we gonna eat more pizza's together.

Model has been refined some more since that Marmotte one I posted. I'm going to re-run it and see what we get. I think <7:30 for the rider shown will be a challenge and will suggest we drop slightly to an IF~0.74.

At the same time, we are hoping to see his FTP and long duration MMP increase by then. We will know for sure when we next test. Not far away now.
Keep us informed, I am very curious.


But I am working on something else ever cooler than event optimiation (but a related topic), so I am on the lookout for power files for timed events with a detailed elevation profile and relatively benign conditions (or wind conditions that are known per segment). Also need total mass of bike+rider.

Profiling the course via the model would be an output and can be shared with providers of suitable files.

If a rider knows their CdA and Crr for the day of the event, that would be a bonus but is not essential if power and elevation data is accurate (and wind not too bad). They would become case study data points.

All data treated in confidence or can just be supplied as an anonymous file.

I don't want to say what it is though just yet.

Anyone intrerested?

I will acknowledge any help provided where this doesn't conflict with confidentiality.Alex, I am always interested. But wonder what criteria you need for a file for optimal pacing up one hill. Is data of a climb usefull when I don't go all out? Or should it be a timetrial? This summer I go on vacation for 3 weeks to the alps and I hope to collect a lot of data from climbing and I don't have problems by sharing it and explain which climb started were. But just before La marmotte and just after la Marmotte I won't go all out... After my vacation I can try to measure my CdA and Crr in climbing position (I still don't have my new bike build up, my LBS cracked my new fork while cutting it and the 3T funda is not available without a frame).

Alex, I am always interested. But wonder what criteria you need for a file for optimal pacing up one hill. Is data of a climb usefull when I don't go all out? Or should it be a timetrial? This summer I go on vacation for 3 weeks to the alps and I hope to collect a lot of data from climbing and I don't have problems by sharing it and explain which climb started were. But just before La marmotte and just after la Marmotte I won't go all out... After my vacation I can try to measure my CdA and Crr in climbing position (I still don't have my new bike build up, my LBS cracked my new fork while cutting it and the 3T funda is not available without a frame).OK, here are some of the criteria that spring to mind:

Suitable datasets would:

- be from a time trial or similar timed effort ride where it was an attempt at minimising the duration of ride for the given conditions on the day (course, environmental, rider's physiological abilities).

- include a file with power, speed & time data from a calibrated and zeroed power meter

- provide either a detailed elevation profile of the course, or a rough profile but with known elevation points along the way (from say google earth)

- include details on weather conditions at the time of the ride: temperature, barometric pressure, humidity

- include details of the rider:
- mass of bike & rider for the ride
- an estimate of rider's FTP & MAP if known
- preferably include estimates for CdA & Crr for the ride but this is not essential.

- preferably be from rides where wind conditions were no more than light/moderate, or wind direction and speed relative to rider was known

If in doubt, send me timed event ride power files with a few explanation notes and I'll see if the data set is sufficient for my needs.

Thanks!

I should also say that it would be better if it were for ride data that already exists. I want to do some analysis soon.

OK to add to datasets later on as well!

Today, I did some sort of Marmotte training (3x40min). Unfortunately I forgot to zero torque my powertap hub after I switched my mavic powertap wheel for my zipp powertap wheel and used the same CPU.

It reminded my to always check the zero torque and sometimes to calibrate the powertap. I relayed on the auto zero torque function but my powertap did not register a cadance of zero when I was coasting so it never zero torqued.

I found out that my 2008 powertap is reliable. With 21-22kg of weight (checked with my bodyweight scale as 21.0kg but claimed weight dumbell+2x10kg=22.0) the torque read was like: 110 - 114 - 112 - 114. The calculated torque (39/14) should be 114 for 21kg and 119 for 22kg. So my powertap is not measuring to high wattage numbers. Maybe something low :D But when my bodyweight scale is accurate my powertap is accurate < 2% otherwise my powertap reads approx 5% to low. :cool:

Now I only should not forget to zero torque before the start of La Marmotte.


I should also say that it would be better if it were for ride data that already exists. I want to do some analysis soon.

OK to add to datasets later on as well!I hope you collected some nice data at the wattage club. I have no good files at the moment.

I hope you collected some nice data at the wattage club. I have no good files at the moment.Yes but more never hurts. I want to re-run analysis over some files.

But some interesting patterns are emerging.

And I always got in the habit of zeroing before I start, irrespective of what the CPU says.

Nine nights to go for La Marmotte!!

On june 12 I tested my FTP as 318w @ 67.5kg (4.71w/kg).
Last week I did 3 hard work outs on a row:
Tuesday 5x5min @ 380 watts (average, and the 4th interval 4minutes)
Wednesday a L3 workout (2 hours)
Thursday 2x20min @ 329 and 330 watts
Friday rest

Since saturday it doesn't go that well. Did 3.5 hours with my girlfriend with only 160 watts but the whole ride I had painfull legs. On sunday I tried to do 100min @ 260watts but I quit after 45 minutes. I took a rest day on monday, did a recovery ride on tuesday. And yesterday tried to do a 2x30min @ 300watt. But instead I hammered the first 12 minutes @ 336 watts and quit the interval after 15 minutes. I have to start focussing again!!! My CTL dropped from 84 to 79 due to this bullshit.

Tonight I hope to do a hard L3 workout because the last seven days I did not have enough quality minutes on the bike. I am getting a little bit nervous... I want to go sub 7.5hours...

But maybe the last unsuccesfull week is due to the fact I stopped drinking coffee and diet coke... I am tired all the time...

I am going to collect two data files from La Marmotte. My girlfriend will also ride La Marmotte and she is going to ride with my second powertap wheel :)

Nine nights to go for La Marmotte!!

On june 12 I tested my FTP as 318w @ 67.5kg (4.71w/kg).
Last week I did 3 hard work outs on a row:
Tuesday 5x5min @ 380 watts (average, and the 4th interval 4minutes)
Wednesday a L3 workout (2 hours)
Thursday 2x20min @ 329 and 330 watts
Friday rest

Since saturday it doesn't go that well. Did 3.5 hours with my girlfriend with only 160 watts but the whole ride I had painfull legs. On sunday I tried to do 100min @ 260watts but I quit after 45 minutes. I took a rest day on monday, did a recovery ride on tuesday. And yesterday tried to do a 2x30min @ 300watt. But instead I hammered the first 12 minutes @ 336 watts and quit the interval after 15 minutes. I have to start focussing again!!! My CTL dropped from 84 to 79 due to this bullshit.

Tonight I hope to do a hard L3 workout because the last seven days I did not have enough quality minutes on the bike. I am getting a little bit nervous... I want to go sub 7.5hours...

But maybe the last unsuccesfull week is due to the fact I stopped drinking coffee and diet coke... I am tired all the time...

I am going to collect two data files from La Marmotte. My girlfriend will also ride La Marmotte and she is going to ride with my second powertap wheel :)Your experience seems to be common. I know that when I back off of intensity I actually become more tired and demotivated as time passes. It sucks!

Your experience seems to be common. I know that when I back off of intensity I actually become more tired and demotivated as time passes. It sucks!Yeah, after those days I planned a 64km L3 ride with some hard L4 pieces. But instead I did 80minutes @ L4 :) 81 minutes with an average of 303w and that on a outdoor parcours with village's, corners, cars etc. Found out that I have to ride a longer course/parcours for a 2 hour ride, with 80minutes of 303w I did the whole ride in 105 minutes (incl warmup/cooldown) :D

I found out that withdrawal of a caffeine addiction takes about 5-10 days. The problems of withdrawal are headache, feelings of fatigue and drowsiness, hypotension, can cause anxiety, irritability, inability to concentrate and diminished motivation to initiate or to complete daily tasks.

That could also explain my bad feeling and lack of motivation on the bike. But I am now 7 days caffeine free and feel a lot better. Tomorrow I go to France and over 3 weeks I will be back.

I rode the Marmotte last Saturday. It was the first sportive on French cols that I took seriously (though did Vaujany previous Sunday as prep and have done number of sportives in UK. Latter very different as obviously no comparable climbs there). Training and pacing was done based on some WKO files kindly shared with me from someone who had done the last 4 events, improving from 7:40 to 7:04 over that time. He averaged 250W for the climbs. He/I are similar in terms of weight/FTP (70kg/300W)

I set 7:30 as a reasonable first time target and aimed to climb at 250W guessing I would come up a bit short but this would leave some contingency.

In the event I actually recorded
Glandon 254W/268NW
Telegraph 250W/254NW
Galibier 224W/229NW
ADH 222W/229NW

During the ride I did not keep track of time, just checking power. I was therefore slightly gobsmacked to finish in 7:34 so pretty much dead on plan. Overall power for the ride was 195W/230NW.

Did event partly as experiment to see if power info could be used as training/pacing for unfamiliar event and am pretty satisfied on basis of above it clearly can be.

Not only that having done the event I now feel quite comfortable with what I need to train and do differently should I decide to do it again.

thats a good time... good job.

How about you PaulMD?

thats a good time... good job.

How about you PaulMD?Hi,

Just a short message: this evening I came back from my vacation and I have ridden 1300km in the car. I am more tired than after La Marmotte (not true ;)).

La Marmotte was one great experience. Unfortunately my rear tire exploded in the descent of the Glandon (second flat tire this year :rolleyes: ) and learned some other wise lessons. But overall: I like it! :D:D And my time was 7.30.04 (official time).

Glandon (including the small descents): 79min 243 / 255
Telegraph: 47min 266 / 269
Galibier (start from water-post outside valloire): 64min 249 / 251
Alp d'Huez (finish at marmotte finish line): 67min 236 / 240 (ouch!!)

My average power was 196w (NP:231) for 7.29.52 (my own measured time and including stops and replacing rear innertube).

Seven days before La Marmotte I weighted 66.0kg and my 60min power on a flat course was 317 watts. Last week I had a lot of difficulties with riding at IF 0.90 uphill, I will start a new topic about it tomorrow. When my job and my girlfriend allows it, I will do La Marmotte next year again!!

I have made a screenshot of my WKO file with the information about the climbs.


http://www.cyclingforum.info/pvdb/Marmotte_Paul_2008.jpg

In the first climb there were two descents: 1.) 3.2km & 6:11 2.) 1.9km & 2:27. Those two descents are the cause of the lower average power and the higher VI (1.04)

Nice work.

Looks like you had to dig deep on the Alpe.