Best Cadence for L5 - Training

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Hi,
yesterday i did some L5-Training on a hill and the duration was about 3 to 4 min.
I did the first interval with 75-82 rpm and everything was fine. O.k. ... my legs were burning and it was very hard, but that´s the way it should be.

The second interval i did with 95 rpm, and my body was feeling very strange. After 2 min. i had the feeling that my legs were running out of gas and my lungs are not able to transport enough oxygen. I felt awfull and had to quit the intervall.
The next one i did again on 80 rpm and i was able to end it.

So what´s the better way to train Vo2-max ?
In a Race (MTB) i would do the hill´s on a lower cadence, but maybe in training it´s better to do higher rpm, because the training of Vo2 is more effective ???

So what´s the better way to train Vo2-max ? In such a way that you get sufficient volume of time at a power level that induces VO2 Max in any one session, usually between 20 and 40 minutes total broken up in to shorter efforts of between 3 to say 6 minutes duration.

If you want them to be specific to your event, then do them under event specific conditions with race gearing.

When doing L5 training I usually will take two different approaches, and particularly when I am within 3 months of my goal event.

The first is that if I am going to be doing intervals longer then 4 minutes I will usually do them with a cadence that I would race with. This should be uncomfortable, but you have to make the extra effort in order to improve. I feel that doing this adjusts the body to the same environment that you are going to be racing in.

The second is that if I am going to be doing intervals less then 4 minutes I will go with a higher cadence then I would race with (usually 10-20 rpm higher). The higher cadence should increase the heart rate.

One thing I would point out is that you had to quit the interval. The reason for this could be a number of things. The key thing to consider here is building a history of these intervals. If you have never done these types of intervals then start with doing just a couple. Add an extra interval each week until you can do 4-8 of these. If you have been doing these intervals and you cannot complete as many as you have done in the past it probably just means your body was not recovered enough for that workout. Go back and look at your previous workouts and see if there is anything you could have done to set yourself up to succeed with this workout.

Hope this helps,
Jeremy
http://cycling.spaces.live.com

One thing I would point out is that you had to quit the interval. The reason for this could be a number of things. It's because the rider attempted to do them at a power level they were unable to sustain on that day.

So either the rider is attempting them at too high a power for their current ability (in which case drop the power) or they are too fatigued to do them properly (in which case the rider needs better rest/recovery before attempting again).

It's because the rider attempted to do them at a power level they were unable to sustain on that day.

So either the rider is attempting them at too high a power for their current ability (in which case drop the power) or they are too fatigued to do them properly (in which case the rider needs better rest/recovery before attempting again).No, i don´t think so. I did the second on the same watt-level than the others, only the cadence was higher. That´s the reason i had to quit this one.

The question is: Should i do the L5 at the same rpm i would prefer in racing (that would be at 80 rpm). Or should i do them on a higher rpm, because my feeling is, that the stress for my system is bigger ??

No, i don´t think so. I did the second on the same watt-level than the others, only the cadence was higher. That´s the reason i had to quit this one.

The question is: Should i do the L5 at the same rpm i would prefer in racing (that would be at 80 rpm). Or should i do them on a higher rpm, because my feeling is, that the stress for my system is bigger ??
Apart from specific race preparation, i'd suggest doing them in the cadence range that allows you to average the highest power across all intervals.

Personally I do threshold work around 95rpm but at least 10 rpm higher for L5 - for the bulk of my 'quality' training, which is indoors. If preparing for a hilly road race, it makes a lot of sense to do then on Real Hills (^TM :) ) with race-appropriate gearing/cadence.

Apart from specific race preparation, i'd suggest doing them in the cadence range that allows you to average the highest power across all intervals.

Personally I do threshold work around 95rpm but at least 10 rpm higher for L5 - for the bulk of my 'quality' training, which is indoors. If preparing for a hilly road race, it makes a lot of sense to do then on Real Hills (^TM :) ) with race-appropriate gearing/cadence.
just my preference, but I do my L5 and L4 intervals at 110 rpm. It gets my HR nice and high, but it easier on the legs, and promotes faster recovery.

Anybody who's watched Stijn Devolder over the last week will have seen the benefit of high cadence riding.

just my preference, but I do my L5 and L4 intervals at 110 rpm. It gets my HR nice and high, but it easier on the legs, and promotes faster recovery.

Anybody who's watched Stijn Devolder over the last week will have seen the benefit of high cadence riding.I would die in the first one :D
Maybe it´s because i do MTB-races, and on the steeper hill´s you can´t climb at 110 rpm.

I do L5 intervals at the self selected cadence which allows me to generate the most watts (around 105 rpm for me). Is there really any evidence that high cadence training results in an upward shift of the RPM where one generates peak wattage? After reading this forum and the wattage list I have started to think that optimal cadence is a funciton of one's unique physiology and fitness level. I mean lots of people train to spin like Lance, but how many of them do you see maintaining 110rpm during a race, or posting PBs at that RPM?

I do L5 intervals at the self selected cadence which allows me to generate the most watts (around 105 rpm for me). Is there really any evidence that high cadence training results in an upward shift of the RPM where one generates peak wattage? After reading this forum and the wattage list I have started to think that optimal cadence is a funciton of one's unique physiology and fitness level. I mean lots of people train to spin like Lance, but how many of them do you see maintaining 110rpm during a race, or posting PBs at that RPM?Good point. For me I've noticed that when I'm on a slight climb during an L5 interval, if I try to spin faster than seems "normal" to me my legs just burn more without producing any added power or speed. If anything I get slower, or can't finish the interval. If I shift up (lower cadence) I immediately feel better and can complete the interval. The best cadence for me, in L5 anyway, seems to be in the 80 RPM range, or even lower. But at lower intensities I like spinning faster, and then 90-110 feels "normal." My legs tell me what works best, not some book or physiologist.

if I am going to be doing intervals less then 4 minutes I will go with a higher cadence then I would race with (usually 10-20 rpm higher). The higher cadence should increase the heart rate.

Just because your heart rate is higher doesn't necessarily mean that you're inducing a greater training effect - in fact, the opposite can even be true (e.g., exercise with a small muscle mass results in higher heart rates at a particular power, but less, or sometimes even no, increase in VO2max compared to exercise with a large muscle mass).

I do not have the experience as many here but I do feel even when I do my short hill intervals that Alex and others who mentioned similar advice makes the most sense to me. You want to duplicate race events and generate enough power that will equal your VO2 max output. I would not be concerned about your cadence.

As far as getting the most speed from the VO2 session than I think cadence will play a big role in addition to many other factors. I have found I can generate some good power numbers at lower cadence but my speed suffers when those lighter guys are spinning those smaller gears at higher cadences. I think than you have to see what works best for you.

-js

Hi,
yesterday i did some L5-Training on a hill and the duration was about 3 to 4 min.
I did the first interval with 75-82 rpm and everything was fine. O.k. ... my legs were burning and it was very hard, but that´s the way it should be.

The second interval i did with 95 rpm, and my body was feeling very strange. After 2 min. i had the feeling that my legs were running out of gas and my lungs are not able to transport enough oxygen. I felt awfull and had to quit the intervall.
The next one i did again on 80 rpm and i was able to end it.

So what´s the better way to train Vo2-max ?
In a Race (MTB) i would do the hill´s on a lower cadence, but maybe in training it´s better to do higher rpm, because the training of Vo2 is more effective ???

Just because your heart rate is higher doesn't necessarily mean that you're inducing a greater training effect - in fact, the opposite can even be true (e.g., exercise with a small muscle mass results in higher heart rates at a particular power, but less, or sometimes even no, increase in VO2max compared to exercise with a large muscle mass).so it´s good to go out of the saddle in L5-workouts, because a larger muscle mass is used ?

so it´s good to go out of the saddle in L5-workouts, because a larger muscle mass is used ?I suppose it could work in theory, but I don't see myself being able to sustain a VO2max power effort off the saddle for long enough to be useful.

so it´s good to go out of the saddle in L5-workouts, because a larger muscle mass is used ?

Can you say "Nordic skiing"? ;)

Seriously, I'd recommend that as a training approach only if you're racing is likely to involve such efforts. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point, as it only takes a modest amount of on-the-bike training before the heart (actually, the cardiovascular system as a whole), and not the amount of active muscle mass, is the limiting factor in determining whether or not you reach maximal cardiac output/VO2max.

Just because your heart rate is higher doesn't necessarily mean that you're inducing a greater training effect - in fact, the opposite can even be true (e.g., exercise with a small muscle mass results in higher heart rates at a particular power, but less, or sometimes even no, increase in VO2max compared to exercise with a large muscle mass).Hold on Andy. Didn't you suggest that one should attempt to push their heart rate close to max during the later period of vo2max intervals. Consequently if riding at a higher cadence results in an increase in heart rate isn't that a good thing. Perhaps I got it wrong. Help me out! :confused:

Hold on Andy. Didn't you suggest that one should attempt to push their heart rate close to max during the later period of vo2max intervals. Consequently if riding at a higher cadence results in an increase in heart rate isn't that a good thing. Perhaps I got it wrong. Help me out! :confused:

If that's exactly how I put it somewhere/sometime, then my apologies for being unclear...what I should have written is that if the intensity is high enough, then your heart rate will approach your maximum during the latter portion of level 5 intervals (although maybe not during the first one or two). IWO, approaching maximal heart rate is an indicator, not a goal.

If that's exactly how I put it somewhere/sometime, then my apologies for being unclear...what I should have written is that if the intensity is high enough, then your heart rate will approach your maximum during the latter portion of level 5 intervals (although maybe not during the first one or two). IWO, approaching maximal heart rate is an indicator, not a goal.Cool I got it :)

Is it possible to get to within 10bpm of max HR without hitting maximal oxygen exchange?

If that's exactly how I put it somewhere/sometime, then my apologies for being unclear...what I should have written is that if the intensity is high enough, then your heart rate will approach your maximum during the latter portion of level 5 intervals (although maybe not during the first one or two). IWO, approaching maximal heart rate is an indicator, not a goal.

Is it possible to get to within 10bpm of max HR without hitting maximal oxygen exchange?You'd have to get really really scared. :)