Hardtail vs. Softtail

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As a number of us in the office are looking at new bikes this spring
(some lucky shop is going to love us), the debate between the hardtail
and softtail is starting.
Being a long time hardtail rider, I am stuck with do I go to a
softtail, or stay with what I know.

My question is;
Is the weight, size, cost, and lose of power to ground, worth the
trade off for the traction, and comfort with a softtail?

Or should I stick with a simpler, lighter, potentially cheaper (should
I not go overboard with add-ons/upgrades) hardtail?

The riding would be primarily cross country, on rock, gravel, clay and
lots of mud.
I am currently riding a hardtail, setup primarily for mud and rock.

Mike
mlawrenc(at)gmail.com

"mike" <mlawrenc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b227dfb9-b0d6-4846-96fc-07016fae93f2@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...
> As a number of us in the office are looking at new bikes this spring
> (some lucky shop is going to love us), the debate between the hardtail
> and softtail is starting.
> Being a long time hardtail rider, I am stuck with do I go to a
> softtail, or stay with what I know.
>
> My question is;
> Is the weight, size, cost, and lose of power to ground, worth the
> trade off for the traction, and comfort with a softtail?
>
> Or should I stick with a simpler, lighter, potentially cheaper (should
> I not go overboard with add-ons/upgrades) hardtail?
>
> The riding would be primarily cross country, on rock, gravel, clay and
> lots of mud.
> I am currently riding a hardtail, setup primarily for mud and rock.
>
> Mike
> mlawrenc(at)gmail.com

for those riding conditions I'd stick with the ht. Now after saying that I
rode my rigid ss Friday and was sooooo glad to be back on the double squishy
Saturday. As you get older the soft tail become way more comfortable.

Gary

On Feb 4, 11:20 am, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a number of us in the office are looking at new bikes this spring
> (some lucky shop is going to love us), the debate between the hardtail
> and softtail is starting.
> Being a long time hardtail rider, I am stuck with do I go to a
> softtail, or stay with what I know.
>
> My question is;
> Is the weight, size, cost, and lose of power to ground, worth the
> trade off for the traction, and comfort with a softtail?
>
> Or should I stick with a simpler, lighter, potentially cheaper (should
> I not go overboard with add-ons/upgrades) hardtail?
>
> The riding would be primarily cross country, on rock, gravel, clay and
> lots of mud.
> I am currently riding a hardtail, setup primarily for mud and rock.
>
> Mike
> mlawrenc(at)gmail.com

What's the target budget? IME you need to drop major coin to get a
decent double-boingy, the lesser bikes have far too much in the way of
weight and loss of translated power penalties. I've got a high-end
hardtail (Ventana custom) and a entry/mid range full susser (Marin
Rift Zone), and the HT is the only one I really use. The FS is more
of a snow/beater/loaner bike. I've ridden FS bikes I liked, but they
were all thousands and thousands of dollars. I've ridden hardtails I
liked that cost less than a grand.

The budget will be a couple grand (~ $2500 to $3000CND).
The hardtail I am currently riding set me back about $2k back in 1998.
I kind of hate giving up the old girl as my main bike, but the frame
is starting to show it's age. (I cracked the frame twise last
season.)

Mike

On Feb 4, 1:36 pm, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The budget will be a couple grand (~ $2500 to $3000CND).
> The hardtail I am currently riding set me back about $2k back in 1998.
> I kind of hate giving up the old girl as my main bike, but the frame
> is starting to show it's age. (I cracked the frame twise last
> season.)
>
> Mike

I should have mentioned, the cracks where not from doing large drops.
The Aluminum frame cracked at the bottom tubing leading from the rear
wheel to the bottom bracket housing. Excessive torque while playing in
the mud was probably the cause of this. Neither crack was at the weld.
(1 crack on the chain side was about 2 inches from the weld on the BB
tube, and the other side was about 1 inch from it.)

Mike

On Feb 4, 11:20 am, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a number of us in the office are looking at new bikes this spring
> (some lucky shop is going to love us), the debate between the hardtail
> and softtail is starting.
> Being a long time hardtail rider, I am stuck with do I go to a
> softtail, or stay with what I know.
>
> My question is;
> Is the weight, size, cost, and lose of power to ground, worth the
> trade off for the traction, and comfort with a softtail?
>
> Or should I stick with a simpler, lighter, potentially cheaper (should
> I not go overboard with add-ons/upgrades) hardtail?
>
> The riding would be primarily cross country, on rock, gravel, clay and
> lots of mud.
> I am currently riding a hardtail, setup primarily for mud and rock.
>
> Mike
> mlawrenc(at)gmail.com

Well pal I'm in the same boat as you. Only differance is my HT was a
bit cheaper, and the FS's I'd be looking at are a little cheaper. But
most of the folks I ride with have FS bikes and seem to be very happy
with them. At 58 years old my bones could use a little more
cushioning.

Eric

On Feb 4, 1:36 pm, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The budget will be a couple grand (~ $2500 to $3000CND).
> The hardtail I am currently riding set me back about $2k back in 1998.
> I kind of hate giving up the old girl as my main bike, but the frame
> is starting to show it's age. (I cracked the frame twise last
> season.)
>
> Mike

That's an interesting price point. If you were planning on spending
$1G US, the answer would be a lot easier.

I thought that for that a couple grand you could get a pretty nice sus
bike these days. I mean, the Horst link is over 20 years old and ever
since the Curnutt and similar other shocks were improved, I haven't
noticed any major improvements. I figured I'd check out one of the
major manufacturers to get an idea of what prices are like, and then I
saw the MSRPs on the 2008 Spesh's. Makes me wonder if their whole
pricing structure is out of wack. The cheapest StumpJumper FSR is
$2400?! Ouch!

However, I kind of think that these days spending 2G on a hard tail
bike is excessive. I rented a $900 Haro Escape 8.2 a few years ago
that was fantastic (and, unfortunately, discontinued.) The parts
weren't blingy at all, but the bike felt very solid, fit me very well,
and worked great.

I guess a couple other question are whether these bikes are going to
be some people's ONLY bike. That is, will this bike potentially be
used for everything from commuting to grocery shopping to hitting the
trails? Or are these going to be mountain bikes for mountain bikers,
and do your conditions warrant the added weight and complexity of full
sus?

And do you all need to get the same model?

/s

"Scott Gordo" <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7cdddc11-eb14-4582-864e-5eb95979715a@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 4, 1:36 pm, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The budget will be a couple grand (~ $2500 to $3000CND).
> The hardtail I am currently riding set me back about $2k back in 1998.
> I kind of hate giving up the old girl as my main bike, but the frame
> is starting to show it's age. (I cracked the frame twise last
> season.)
>
> Mike

That's an interesting price point. If you were planning on spending
$1G US, the answer would be a lot easier.

I thought that for that a couple grand you could get a pretty nice sus
bike these days. I mean, the Horst link is over 20 years old and ever
since the Curnutt and similar other shocks were improved, I haven't
noticed any major improvements. I figured I'd check out one of the
major manufacturers to get an idea of what prices are like, and then I
saw the MSRPs on the 2008 Spesh's. Makes me wonder if their whole
pricing structure is out of wack. The cheapest StumpJumper FSR is
$2400?! Ouch!

However, I kind of think that these days spending 2G on a hard tail
bike is excessive. I rented a $900 Haro Escape 8.2 a few years ago
that was fantastic (and, unfortunately, discontinued.) The parts
weren't blingy at all, but the bike felt very solid, fit me very well,
and worked great.

I guess a couple other question are whether these bikes are going to
be some people's ONLY bike. That is, will this bike potentially be
used for everything from commuting to grocery shopping to hitting the
trails? Or are these going to be mountain bikes for mountain bikers,
and do your conditions warrant the added weight and complexity of full
sus?

And do you all need to get the same model?

/s

Mike,

I recently made the switch from a HT to a FS. I ended up with a Specialized
Epic Expert. List was around $3200 and I got if for $2300. The LBS was
willing to deal!

There haven't been many times that I've missed the HT and the FS is
certainly more comfortable. I have almost no back and neck pain on the FS
whereas the HT was starting to really hurt.

Dave

mike wrote:
> As a number of us in the office are looking at new bikes this spring
> (some lucky shop is going to love us), the debate between the hardtail
> and softtail is starting.
> Being a long time hardtail rider, I am stuck with do I go to a
> softtail, or stay with what I know.
>
> My question is;
> Is the weight, size, cost, and lose of power to ground, worth the
> trade off for the traction, and comfort with a softtail?
>
> Or should I stick with a simpler, lighter, potentially cheaper (should
> I not go overboard with add-ons/upgrades) hardtail?
>
> The riding would be primarily cross country, on rock, gravel, clay and
> lots of mud.
> I am currently riding a hardtail, setup primarily for mud and rock.
>
> Mike
> mlawrenc(at)gmail.com
Buy yourself a steel hard tail,my pick would be a Rocky Mountain Hammer
or Blizzard and ride on any full squish at that price point will
probably not last IMHO
PS own a Blizzard and an Epic the Blizzard is way more fun!!

Dave:

This bike would be for recreational riding only. I have a car,
motorcycle and rollerblades for commuting to work, stores, etc.

Given all the responses, I am still kind of stuck.
Being that I hope to ride this bike at least half the millage I got
out of my old one, a FS might be an idea. Current bike has ~16,000km
on the clock, mostly commuting when I was in college.

On the other side of the things, I live for the mud runs and hard
technical riding. I am still a little concerned with how the full
suspension would handle the mud/clay caked on it. (I weighed the bike
after one of the clay/rain runs last year. My 25lb bike was over 35lb
with the mud still attached.)

Has anyone and much experience with the full suspension bikes in major
mud? My current bike is about a 3 hour job to strip, and rebuild/
grease.

Mike

"mike" <mlawrenc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d111809e-c1e0-4830-b393-7a0000283b30@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dave:
>
> This bike would be for recreational riding only. I have a car,
> motorcycle and rollerblades for commuting to work, stores, etc.
>
> Given all the responses, I am still kind of stuck.
> Being that I hope to ride this bike at least half the millage I got
> out of my old one, a FS might be an idea. Current bike has ~16,000km
> on the clock, mostly commuting when I was in college.
>
> On the other side of the things, I live for the mud runs and hard
> technical riding. I am still a little concerned with how the full
> suspension would handle the mud/clay caked on it. (I weighed the bike
> after one of the clay/rain runs last year. My 25lb bike was over 35lb
> with the mud still attached.)
>
> Has anyone and much experience with the full suspension bikes in major
> mud? My current bike is about a 3 hour job to strip, and rebuild/
> grease.
>
> Mike

Unless you go with a single speed the tune-up won't take much longer on the
fs bike. The major strip/rebuild is in the derailleur, brakes and cables.
A pivot doesn't take all that long to clean and lube.

As for the added weight.....stay out of the mud if its on the trail because
you're messing up the trail. If not on a trail then keep doing what you're
doing...ride....clean.....ride....etc.

On Feb 5, 11:54 am, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dave:
>
> This bike would be for recreational riding only. I have a car,
> motorcycle and rollerblades for commuting to work, stores, etc.
>
> Given all the responses, I am still kind of stuck.
> Being that I hope to ride this bike at least half the millage I got
> out of my old one, a FS might be an idea. Current bike has ~16,000km
> on the clock, mostly commuting when I was in college.
>
> On the other side of the things, I live for the mud runs and hard
> technical riding. I am still a little concerned with how the full
> suspension would handle the mud/clay caked on it. (I weighed the bike
> after one of the clay/rain runs last year. My 25lb bike was over 35lb
> with the mud still attached.)
>
> Has anyone and much experience with the full suspension bikes in major
> mud?  My current bike is about a 3 hour job to strip, and rebuild/
> grease.
>
> Mike

I've never had problem riding a FS in muddy conditions and I've never
had to strip the bike down after a muddy ride. A quick hose down and
lube seems to be all it needs. But, then again I don't expect my chain
to last more than 6 months.
I've also found I get better traction (climbing and cornering) in
loose muddy/rocky conditions on my FS than my HT.

As for handling with the extra weight, my FS starts at 36lb clean and
so a bit or a lot or mud isn't going to make much difference. :)
Where mud can be a pain, rim brakes can get clogged and why I run
disks, spds can get clogged and may need an extra stamp to engage, fat
tyres float over mud and so no traction and hence why I run 1.75s or
narrower.

If I only had one bike it would be a FS, it's just that bit more
versatile than a HT.

Per mike:
>Has anyone and much experience with the full suspension bikes in major
>mud? My current bike is about a 3 hour job to strip, and rebuild/
>grease.

My position has always been that dirt acts as a protective layer
between the bike and the vicissitudes of the outside world:
http://tinyurl.com/27wcou
--
PeteCresswell

On Feb 5, 12:54 pm, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dave:
>
> This bike would be for recreational riding only. I have a car,
> motorcycle and rollerblades for commuting to work, stores, etc.
>
> Given all the responses, I am still kind of stuck.
> Being that I hope to ride this bike at least half the millage I got
> out of my old one, a FS might be an idea. Current bike has ~16,000km
> on the clock, mostly commuting when I was in college.
>
> On the other side of the things, I live for the mud runs and hard
> technical riding. I am still a little concerned with how the full
> suspension would handle the mud/clay caked on it. (I weighed the bike
> after one of the clay/rain runs last year. My 25lb bike was over 35lb
> with the mud still attached.)
>
> Has anyone and much experience with the full suspension bikes in major
> mud?  My current bike is about a 3 hour job to strip, and rebuild/
> grease.
>
> Mike

I don't want to preach, but you just removed 10lbs of dirt from your
trail.

/s

Maybe if I was riding on an organized trail or a golf course I would
worry about the mud that was removed.

On Feb 4, 11:20 am, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a number of us in the office are looking at new bikes this spring
> (some lucky shop is going to love us), the debate between the hardtail
> and softtail is starting.
> Being a long time hardtail rider, I am stuck with do I go to a
> softtail, or stay with what I know.
>
> My question is;
> Is the weight, size, cost, and lose of power to ground, worth the
> trade off for the traction, and comfort with a softtail?
>
> Or should I stick with a simpler, lighter, potentially cheaper (should
> I not go overboard with add-ons/upgrades) hardtail?
>
> The riding would be primarily cross country, on rock, gravel, clay and
> lots of mud.
> I am currently riding a hardtail, setup primarily for mud and rock.
>
> Mike
> mlawrenc(at)gmail.com

Test a few F/S then make up your own mind.

On Feb 10, 11:26 am, mike <mlawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe if I was riding on an organized trail or a golf course I would
> worry about the mud that was removed.

Actually I wouldn't care if somebody removed all the mud from a golf
course, but trails are very suseptible to damage from erosion and
every groove we cut adds to the problem.