Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

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aye- and that's a sure sign of doing too many intervals, aka, high-intensity this time of year (assume no racing until April or so) :D .

I'm just a pure TT'r so the interval for me is what comes after warmup and before cooldown. Steady-state baby :D.


Yeah, I'm going to have to work on that steady state suff for sure. But I don't do too many intervals, 70 % of my ride time is base work at the mo. Not racing, ride all year round, cut back in volume over Christmas.

What? A Watt is a Watt. You certainly don't learn how to handle a bike indoors, or some of the other techinical aspects of cycling, but you can do hill specific training indoors.

sure, is it as good ? If you had the option would you do them outdoors ?

A watt is watt is interesting point, power production is only one side of the coin, adaptation is the other.

...A watt is watt is interesting point, power production is only one side of the coin, adaptation is the other.Sure, there's mental elements to climbing and practice helps you choose appropriate gears, know how and when to stand or sit and other specific skills. But kopride's right, a watt is a watt is a watt. What sort of adaptations are you talking about?

Sure, there's mental elements to climbing and practice helps you choose appropriate gears, know how and when to stand or sit and other specific skills. But kopride's right, a watt is a watt is a watt. What sort of adaptations are you talking about?

You pretty well answered your own question. There are other subtleties to metabolic pathways.

Not wanting to start an argument here. If you can't ride a hill due to weather or whatever, you do what you can, well structured indoor stuff may very well be better than less structured road rides.

When LA wanted to win the TDF, he went there, trained on the actual hills he'd be competing on.

The point I was alluring too, ( back to the theme of this thread) … is choosing what intervals we do on a trainer and what ones we do on the road, assuming we have some choices.

sure, is it as good ? If you had the option would you do them outdoors ?

That is a different question. Your simply asking preference. In a perfect world, no work or family commitments, perfect weather, daylight and traffic always optimum, I would prefer to ride outdoors. And I would prefer if my training partner would be Scarlett Johansen and she would be fit enough to ride with me, but not so fit that I couldn't drop her when I wanted to. And she would want to stop ocassionally because she was hot and would need to remove articles of clothing. And she wouldn't tell my wife.

As whether riding indoors is "as good." Some coaches say that 45 minutes indoors is "as good" as 60-90 outdoors. Personally, I find it harder to duplicate power indoors that I can do outdoors, but it is certainly more efficient on a time basis to train indoors.

A watt is watt is interesting point, power production is only one side of the coin, adaptation is the other.
I am losing you there. Aside from some negligible gains from climbing technique, IMHO hill climbing is essentially watts/kg. Believe me, if you have a technique on how to "adapt"so that I can get my 175lb + body up a hill that is independent of how many watts I am producing as I climb that hill, I am all ears. Again, this also assumes that my bike is set up properly and that I don't run out of gears on the hill from running too aggressive a cassette. I.E, I am climbing on a 19 on a hill that should be climbed in a 23 or 25.

If you want to get better on hills, 1) train indoors and outdoors at the power ranges you need to climb and you will adapt. 2) get your body fat down to a managable level. 3) make sure that you have a reasonable cassette so that you do not have to climb every hill standing and anearobic. 4) Convince Scarlett Johansen to ride just ahead of you at a pace where you really have to push it to stay with you. . . or better yet, convince her to ride with me, and I will buy you a power tap and pay a good coach for you.:D

... There are other subtleties to metabolic pathways....Which will manifest themselves as watts.
The point I was alluring too, ( back to the theme of this thread) … is choosing what intervals we do on a trainer and what ones we do on the road, assuming we have some choices.From that standpoint, it's duration and intensity of intervals and how they relate to specific metabolic processes that matter. IOW, do minute long max effort intervals and you'll develop your ability to produce power anaerobically via anaerobic glycolocis. Great thing to have in your bag of tricks but only relevent to hills if they take less than a couple of minutes to climb.

Do some 3 to 8 minute best effort intervals and you'll stress your VO2 Max range and your ability to produce power at the top end of your aerobic range burning primarily sugars(glycogen, blood glucose and blood lactate) in the presence of oxygen. Good for slightly longer hills but not major climbs.

Do some 10 to 45 minute efforts at a steady sustainable intensity and you'll develop your core ability to burn sugars and fats aerobically. This is your best bet for improving your climbing or time trial abilities.

Do long intervals a bit easier but throw in some microinterval bursts and you'll get sustainable power but also work on your ability to recruit additional muscle fibers on demand. Or as has been discussed here before an L4 workout with an L7 twist. L7 focusing on the neuro portion of neuromuscular or IOW training your ability quickly utilize your muscles to acelerate. You won't build great big muscles nor will you be likely to improve your 5 second sprint power with these intervals but they can help a lot for things like repetitively jumping out of crit corners.

Anyway, there are lots of intervals but they should each target a specific need and specific adaptation. Getting back to my original post in this thread they should also be tailored to a rider's strengths and weaknesses and be used at an appropriate place in the annual schedule.

I see your needs are different in terms of leading spin classes to an assortment of folks with differing experiences, training bases and goals. You've got to keep them interesting and SST work is tough to market regardless of its training benefits. That's more or less why I stayed out of this thread, but if we're talking about competitive cyclists in training then any discussion of intervals should be held in a context of why and when.

Not arguing either, just that for the sake of a Cycling Training forum it's pretty important to understand why different intervals work, what they work on and when a rider might want to use one protocol over another. Just being hard or fun doesn't really mean much if you want to train in a structured way and one size rarely fits all.

-Dave

I am losing you there. Aside from some negligible gains from climbing technique, IMHO hill climbing is essentially watts/kg. Believe me, if you have a technique on how to "adapt"so that I can get my 175lb + body up a hill that is independent of how many watts I am producing as I climb that hill, I am all ears. Again, this also assumes that my bike is set up properly and that I don't run out of gears on the hill from running too aggressive a cassette. I.E, I am climbing on a 19 on a hill that should be climbed in a 23 or 25.

If you want to get better on hills, 1) train indoors and outdoors at the power ranges you need to climb and you will adapt. 2) get your body fat down to a managable level. 3) make sure that you have a reasonable cassette so that you do not have to climb every hill standing and anearobic. 4) Convince Scarlett Johansen to ride just ahead of you at a pace where you really have to push it to stay with you. . . or better yet, convince her to ride with me, and I will buy you a power tap and pay a good coach for you.:D

That is a such a good offer, I'm not going to stab at a short reply, It's morning here and I have work to attend too. I'm going to think on this and elaborate on the significance of specificity.

Which will manifest themselves as watts.
From that standpoint, it's duration and intensity of intervals and how they relate to specific metabolic processes that matter. IOW, do minute long max effort intervals and you'll develop your ability to produce power anaerobically via anaerobic glycolocis. Great thing to have in your bag of tricks but only relevent to hills if they take less than a couple of minutes to climb.

Do some 3 to 8 minute best effort intervals and you'll stress your VO2 Max range and your ability to produce power at the top end of your aerobic range burning primarily sugars(glycogen, blood glucose and blood lactate) in the presence of oxygen. Good for slightly longer hills but not major climbs.

Do some 10 to 45 minute efforts at a steady sustainable intensity and you'll develop your core ability to burn sugars and fats aerobically. This is your best bet for improving your climbing or time trial abilities.

Do long intervals a bit easier but throw in some microinterval bursts and you'll get sustainable power but also work on your ability to recruit additional muscle fibers on demand. Or as has been discussed here before an L4 workout with an L7 twist. L7 focusing on the neuro portion of neuromuscular or IOW training your ability quickly utilize your muscles to acelerate. You won't build great big muscles nor will you be likely to improve your 5 second sprint power with these intervals but they can help a lot for things like repetitively jumping out of crit corners.

Anyway, there are lots of intervals but they should each target a specific need and specific adaptation. Getting back to my original post in this thread they should also be tailored to a rider's strengths and weaknesses and be used at an appropriate place in the annual schedule.

I see your needs are different in terms of leading spin classes to an assortment of folks with differing experiences, training bases and goals. You've got to keep them interesting and SST work is tough to market regardless of its training benefits. That's more or less why I stayed out of this thread, but if we're talking about competitive cyclists in training then any discussion of intervals should be held in a context of why and when.

Not arguing either, just that for the sake of a Cycling Training forum it's pretty important to understand why different intervals work, what they work on and when a rider might want to use one protocol over another. Just being hard or fun doesn't really mean much if you want to train in a structured way and one size rarely fits all.

-Dave

I'm trying with some success to turn a dilema into a delight. Classes are 30% of my training volume.

I think the whole idea behind, "do hill repeats if you want to get better at hills" is mostly the mental aspect of going up hills. People underestimate the mental part of endurance sports. I think maybe a teeny bit of doing lots of hills has to do with the support muscles that you use when you stand up and push up a hill, as opposed to just creating that same power on a trainer (arms,core).

I think the whole idea behind, "do hill repeats if you want to get better at hills" is mostly the mental aspect of going up hills. People underestimate the mental part of endurance sports. I think maybe a teeny bit of doing lots of hills has to do with the support muscles that you use when you stand up and push up a hill, as opposed to just creating that same power on a trainer (arms,core).

Never have mental problem with hills … I'm just not as talented or as well trained at the bloke who passes me. I don't care about the hurting, I care about the fact the legs just won't do it !!!!!!!

I think the whole idea behind, "do hill repeats if you want to get better at hills" is mostly the mental aspect of going up hills.
Well, I can't argue against using the actual experience as practice. I'm sure riding through wind, deserts, rain, or forests is also very good practice for improving in those situations as well.

As far as the argument that riding up hills might be the *only good* way to get better, I'd guess it's a holdover from pre-powermeter days when there was really just no way for riders to quantify the effort of going uphill and translate that to an indoor experience.

Aside from some minor inertial differences (which are actually smaller going uphill than riding on the flats), I really don't see why hill training on an ergometer or computrainer should be any less beneficial than actual hill repeats. In practice, I'd bet they are more beneficial since you can dial up any length and gradient you choose and don't have to deal with all those pesky descents.

Aside from some minor inertial differences (which are actually smaller going uphill than riding on the flats), I really don't see why hill training on an ergometer or computrainer should be any less beneficial than actual hill repeats. In practice, I'd bet they are more beneficial since you can dial up any length and gradient you choose and don't have to deal with all those pesky descents.
Exactly. I am too much of a computer moron to convert my power agent files so that I can post them, (and haven't invested in cycling peaks yet) but there is no discernable difference between the power profile of a "hill" interval indoors or out. And yes, you can generally similulate a "longer" interval indoors because on a real hill, it is difficult to achieve the same power levels while descending from the top of a hill, even with your 11 or 12 teeth cog. So from a practical point, outdoors, the hill interval ends at the "top," when you have to start to descend (unless you are climbing to the top of a plataeu and can stretch it out, by shifting to smaller cogs). Indoors, it ends when you want it to.

A Watt is a Watt. I think that most of us have problems duplicating power indoors because we don't dissapate our own heat as well indoors at 0 mph, as we do on the road at 15-23 mph, but I believe that we are essentially getting the same metabolic effect. My guess is that the power levels would drop down the same outdoors if you were riding in extreme heat. The power differences are usually less than 5%, and with proper fans and ventilation, you can get real close. Coping with boredom indoors is another factor

there is no discernable difference between the power profile of a "hill" interval indoors or out.True, but depending on how finely you want to split things, the application of force can be different between the two, which could affect muscle recruitment, joint angles when firing occurs, etc. I'm not saying that makes a discernible difference, but since I'm not aware that it's been thoroughly studied the possibility certainly exists. That's where the "it's just not the same" arguments typically end up, from what I've seen.

A Watt is a Watt.
You might find this interesting if you haven't already seen it. :)

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/quad.asp

True, but depending on how finely you want to split things, the application of force can be different between the two, which could affect muscle recruitment, joint angles when firing occurs, etc. I'm not saying that makes a discernible difference, but since I'm not aware that it's been thoroughly studied the possibility certainly exists. That's where the "it's just not the same" arguments typically end up, from what I've seen.


You might find this interesting if you haven't already seen it. :)

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/quad.asp
That is interesting. And is a real incentive to jumping on the cycling peaks train. I have just been using the Saris software, and it looks like I am missing out on some of the better tools. I store my data on my kids computer b/c it is down the basement near my trainer but that computer is not hooked up to the internet to download the software. Looks like I will have to switch computers to store the data.

True, but depending on how finely you want to split things, the application of force can be different between the two, which could affect muscle recruitment, joint angles when firing occurs, etc. I'm not saying that makes a discernible difference, but since I'm not aware that it's been thoroughly studied the possibility certainly exists. That's where the "it's just not the same" arguments typically end up, from what I've seen.


You might find this interesting if you haven't already seen it. :)

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/quad.asp

a difference is a difference is a difference …

Sportsman in all types of sports are generally better now because of training tools

… I think the optimum is to do both indoor and outdoor for the best reasons. Indoor work can be uninterrupted, controlled and regular. Outdoor work can be application specific.

The original questions: are there intervals that are better outside and are there intervals that are better on a trainer ?

I just gave hill work as an example which spiraled out in this direction.

a difference is a difference is a difference …I disagree. There are plainly big differences and small differences -- all differences are by no means equal, as you state. However, if you're trying to say that any difference, no matter how small, is intolerable, then I suppose you only ride on hills and roads that you intend to use during races since anything else wouldn't be specific? Seems a little extreme.

So, what intervals are better indoors?
For me, any interval over 1 minute is better indoors because of the rolling terrain here. There is one place that I can do a relatively isopower 5-min interval, but that involves me making a right turn through a stop sign at about 20mph. Plus, the rest intervals are longer than I prefer because I have to roll back to the starting point before I can start again.

Intervals better outdoors-
Sprints repeats of 30 seconds or less, and hill repeats of 1 minutes or less, because I like the greater inertia of riding outdoors and don't have to worry about tire slip on the road. There are a few hills here that are longer than 1 minute, but the extra distance isn't really worth the trip.

I disagree. There are plainly big differences and small differences -- all differences are by no means equal, as you state. However, if you're trying to say that any difference, no matter how small, is intolerable, then I suppose you only ride on hills and roads that you intend to use during races since anything else wouldn't be specific? Seems a little extreme.

So, what intervals are better indoors?
For me, any interval over 1 minute is better indoors because of the rolling terrain here. There is one place that I can do a relatively isopower 5-min interval, but that involves me making a right turn through a stop sign at about 20mph. Plus, the rest intervals are longer than I prefer because I have to roll back to the starting point before I can start again.

Intervals better outdoors-
Sprints repeats of 30 seconds or less, and hill repeats of 1 minutes or less, because I like the greater inertia of riding outdoors and don't have to worry about tire slip on the road. There are a few hills here that are longer than 1 minute, but the extra distance isn't really worth the trip.
Is it "rolling" out there in Kansas if all the hills are less than a minute:) "Rolling to me is about 3500 ft gain and 3500 ft descent on about a 2 hour ride. In SE PA, we would call your kind of riding "flat.":D But I have friends come from out west and laugh at me and say, you call this hilly? So, its all relative. When I ride down the Jersey Shore, the guys are averaging 28+ mph on a flat group ride and the power numbers are high and constant, so the absence of hills doesn't seem to change the intensity of the ride. A great place for intervals if riding solo. More sprints and attacks to spread out the ride, less hills. Fortunately, closer to home, I also can pick up a bike path that runs flat along a river for almost 30 miles, perfect for intervals. I can ride for 5 hours with less than 150 feet of elevation +/-

As Frenchy points out, I think you indoor/outdoor question depends alot on where you live. When I lived in Center City Philadelphia, it took 20 minutes or so before I got out of traffic and could maintain a pace over 8 mph. So, unless you had 90 minutes available, indoor was your only option. If you live at the bottom of Mt Washington, I would think that it would make sense to do hill intervals outside.

IOW, your question seems more dependent on local geography, traffic, weather and time availability, than indoor or out. Those are significant differences in the quality of intervals you can do outdoors. I dont think that the indoor outdoor distinction is a significnat factor.

As Frenchy points out, I think you indoor/outdoor question depends alot on where you live. When I lived in Center City Philadelphia, it took 20 minutes or so before I got out of traffic and could maintain a pace over 8 mph. So, unless you had 90 minutes available, indoor was your only option. If you live at the bottom of Mt Washington, I would think that it would make sense to do hill intervals outside.

yes suh. I can't get anything other than a LSD ride out here on Long Island, NY.. between the traffic and non-existence of hills. But Hincapie managed to get somewhere growing up here, so heck i can too!

Is it "rolling" out there in Kansas if all the hills are less than a minute:) "Rolling to me is about 3500 ft gain and 3500 ft descent on about a 2 hour ride. In SE PA, we would call your kind of riding "flat.":D But I have friends come from out west and laugh at me and say, you call this hilly? So, its all relative.Yeah, it's all relative. People also come here and say "I thought Kansas was flat!" :) The hills here aren't particularly tall, but it's a constant undulation, and it's tough to find a flat stretch of road longer than about .5 miles. Also, when I say 1 minute, I mean a 500w, 1-min-interval minute.

Here's the ride my team did last Sunday http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/4777826 . The route wasn't chosen for being a hilly one, but 45 miles and +/-2667' elevation change nonetheless.

I disagree. There are plainly big differences and small differences -- all differences are by no means equal, as you state. However, if you're trying to say that any difference, no matter how small, is intolerable, then I suppose you only ride on hills and roads that you intend to use during races since anything else wouldn't be specific? Seems a little extreme.

So, what intervals are better indoors?
For me, any interval over 1 minute is better indoors because of the rolling terrain here. There is one place that I can do a relatively isopower 5-min interval, but that involves me making a right turn through a stop sign at about 20mph. Plus, the rest intervals are longer than I prefer because I have to roll back to the starting point before I can start again.

Intervals better outdoors-
Sprints repeats of 30 seconds or less, and hill repeats of 1 minutes or less, because I like the greater inertia of riding outdoors and don't have to worry about tire slip on the road. There are a few hills here that are longer than 1 minute, but the extra distance isn't really worth the trip.I agree with the trend here. Around here we have hills up to 5-min long but none of them are close enough to home and safe enough to turn around on to make them *ideal* for L5 training.

But we have tons of 1-2-3 min hills so those are ideal for L6 work (if I did any :o ).

Wrt. to longer intervals I can handle efforts up to an hour on the CT w/o undue loss of power and do the vast majority of my L4 training on it. But I'd throw out the probably obvious point that if you're going to TT, that as the season approaches, you should do a portion of your hard L4 work on the TT bike in the TT position. Personally, I've found my legs/mind/butt just cannot handle that indoors and despite the 'less pure' effort, I have to do those outdoors. I'm not sure they really *need* to be done at mid-upper L4 but it's surely specific to racing.

Re hills in general, I do find the effort different on the lumpy terrain here probably mostly because with a 12-25 cassette and on grades of 10+ %, my speed drops so much that cadence is pretty low. I suppose I could replicate that on the trainer but why bother when a typical tempo ride forces me to hit some hills like that on every ride.

edit: I'd just like to add that I've still not found anything better than pure isopower intervals on the CT in ergo mode. Tough on the head sometimes but golden for results ...