Using a pace group

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Questions about pace groups, have never done that.

When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
strike out a little faster in the last third or so. Anyone have
experience with using a pace group with this situation?

And will a pace group leader normally go out much slower than pace,
ramp up to pace and be negative to the pace at some point in the
second half.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote
| Questions about pace groups, have never done that.
|
| When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
| that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
| instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
| 3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
| faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
| strike out a little faster in the last third or so. Anyone have
| experience with using a pace group with this situation?

I didn't have one or didn't know in my first three marathons,
but I did make use of one in the most recent one.
I did and would choose 10 min faster group to allow the
fading at the end. I kept up with the 3:30 group more than
half way point then lost them during a pee break. This contributed
to the boredom in the middle stages. Then around 20+ miles
3:35 guy caught up with me that I could make use for another2+ miles
before he pulled ahead. I decided then not to let the 3:40 person to catch
me that helped to finish in 3:38.

| And will a pace group leader normally go out much slower than pace,
| ramp up to pace and be negative to the pace at some point in the
| second half.

It depends on the philosopy of that person. My 3:30 guy was going at
5 to 10 sec faster than 8 min/mi. I think they try to get a min or two under the
goal time. Some would like to allow some fading at the end and go slightly
faster than the even splits call for.

When is the race? good luck for BQ.

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:20:55 -0500, "I2Run"
<no_i2run_spam@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"Frank Boettcher" wrote
>| Questions about pace groups, have never done that.
>|
>| When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
>| that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
>| instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
>| 3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
>| faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
>| strike out a little faster in the last third or so. Anyone have
>| experience with using a pace group with this situation?
>
>I didn't have one or didn't know in my first three marathons,
>but I did make use of one in the most recent one.
>I did and would choose 10 min faster group to allow the
>fading at the end.

Probably what I'll do. Calculators give me between 3:38 and 3:49
depending on what recent shorter race time I use in them.


I kept up with the 3:30 group more than
>half way point then lost them during a pee break. This contributed
>to the boredom in the middle stages. Then around 20+ miles
>3:35 guy caught up with me that I could make use for another2+ miles
>before he pulled ahead. I decided then not to let the 3:40 person to catch
>me that helped to finish in 3:38.
>
>| And will a pace group leader normally go out much slower than pace,
>| ramp up to pace and be negative to the pace at some point in the
>| second half.
>
>It depends on the philosopy of that person. My 3:30 guy was going at
>5 to 10 sec faster than 8 min/mi. I think they try to get a min or two under the
>goal time. Some would like to allow some fading at the end and go slightly
>faster than the even splits call for.
>
>When is the race?

Missed the initial target race (Nov 24) due to some minor health
issues busting the training plan at the most critical time. Now
looking at the A1A on Feb 17. Have a very close friend in Boca I
would like to visit anyway. Will require some effort to train through
the winter though, I'm not a good cold weather runner.


>good luck for BQ.

Thanks,

Frank
>

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 08:12:49 -0600, Frank Boettcher
<fboettcher@comcast.net> wrote:


>When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
>that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
>instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
>3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
>faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
>strike out a little faster in the last third or so.

Start with the slower group and save your energy for later in the
race. It's much better to finish strong than to endure a death march.

I have never stayed with a pace group for an entire race, so feel free
to discount this advice.

Karen



live! vicariously!

"Frank Boettcher" wrote
| >| Questions about pace groups, have never done that.
| >|
| >| When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
| >| that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
| >| instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
| >| 3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
| >| faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
| >| strike out a little faster in the last third or so. Anyone have
| >| experience with using a pace group with this situation?
| >
| >I didn't have one or didn't know in my first three marathons,
| >but I did make use of one in the most recent one.
| >I did and would choose 10 min faster group to allow the
| >fading at the end.
|
| Probably what I'll do. Calculators give me between 3:38 and 3:49
| depending on what recent shorter race time I use in them.

Most calculators gave me sub 3:20 based on some short distance
races. But I always counted on Purdy's more conservative estimates,
that consistenly worked for me within +/-2 minutes in all 4 marathons.
I am sure it works differently for others.

On Dec 6, 9:12 am, Frank Boettcher <fboettc...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Questions about pace groups, have never done that.
>
> When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
> that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
> instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
> 3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
> faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
> strike out a little faster in the last third or so. Anyone have
> experience with using a pace group with this situation?
>
> And will a pace group leader normally go out much slower than pace,
> ramp up to pace and be negative to the pace at some point in the
> second half.

I've led pace groups twice (same race, in 2005 and 2006).

In the example you give here (goal is 3:50, pace groups at 3:40 and
4:00), I would strongly advise that you don't run with either group.
+/- 10 minutes in a marathon is about +/- 23 seconds per mile --
that's a HUGE deviation from a pacing strategy. Might be OK for one
single mile if it was all up or downhill. Don't do it!

Here's what I would do instead, and actually this is just what I did
when I was pacing:

Start with your goal time and whip up a little Excel spreadsheet with
the exact mile splits at each mile marker to produce that goal time.
Then go find all the miles where your elapsed time is close to an
exact minute (plus or minus 5-10 seconds). Round that time to the
nearest minute and consider it to be one of your "checkpoints". I
think in most cases you'll have a checkpoint every 4-6 miles (depends
on how close your goal pace is to xx:00/mi or xx:30/mi).

Now you've got a manageable amount of information to handle during the
race -- your goal pace per mile, plus about 5-6 other checkpoint
times. Keep track of each mile's split, and ease your pace up or down
gradually if you're way off. Then use the checkpoints to see how
close you are to the overall goal every so often. I used a small slip
of paper, but I suppose you could laminate it or write it on plastic.

It's not quite as easy as just following a pacer, and it means you
need to own a watch that records enough splits, but I've found that it
works pretty well. Also, following a plan like this means that you're
actually aiming at a specific time goal, and you can't just hook up
with other runners to have some company. But it's the best way I know
of to squeeze out your best possible performance.

To answer the second part of your query, a good pace group leader
should try to hit as close as possible to dead-even splits between
first 13 and second 13. I also set a "real" target goal of 20-30
seconds under the stated time (just in case), and that's what I used
to work up the checkpoint times. The biggest risk you'll face with a
pace group is getting a yahoo who's never done it before and just
tries to wing it. I think this happens a fair bit, and there's all
kinds of stories floating around about pace groups being 5-10 minutes
ahead of pace. Personally, I wouldn't risk it in a race that I had
trained hard for.

Tom:
> But it's the best way I know of to squeeze out your best
> possible performance.

Best _practical_ way, perhaps. But I'd think hiring one's own private
rabbit(s) would be even better!


> I used a small slip of paper, but I suppose you could laminate it or
> write it on plastic.

google "pace band" will even reveal sites where you enter a time and
it calcs mile splits and prints them in the form of a bracelet you can
cut out and tape around your wrist

"joe positive" <kcollin5@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ljcgl3tiffarm0g1httv6thtg8iie1b5u2@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 08:12:49 -0600, Frank Boettcher
> <fboettcher@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
>>that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
>>instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
>>3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
>>faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
>>strike out a little faster in the last third or so.
>
> Start with the slower group and save your energy for later in the
> race. It's much better to finish strong than to endure a death march.

See, we agree on a lot of things. Yes I agree, go with the slower group
and finish strong. Going out that little too fast very often leads to a
geometric slow down aka crash and burn aka shit the bed!


> I have never stayed with a pace group for an entire race, so feel free
> to discount this advice.

I never run with a pace group unless they are coincidently going at my
pace. Set your pace a goal and to hell with anyone.

-Doug

On Dec 6, 3:06 pm, Charlie Pendejo <Charlie.Pend...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But it's the best way I know of to squeeze out your best
> > possible performance.
>
> Best _practical_ way, perhaps. But I'd think hiring one's own private
> rabbit(s) would be even better!

Ahh, good point. I think Haile had a small flotilla of ~6 rabbits at
RnR Phoenix a couple of years ago when he set the WR in the half.
Yes, that would indeed be better.

> > I used a small slip of paper, but I suppose you could laminate it or
> > write it on plastic.
>
> google "pace band" will even reveal sites where you enter a time and
> it calcs mile splits and prints them in the form of a bracelet you can
> cut out and tape around your wrist

Yes, I knew about this, but I don't like it as much as my checkpoint
idea. The bands are flimsy and easy to tear/lose. And with all 26+
splits on there, the print's just too small and busy. Like the king
says to Mozart in _Amadeus_, at the prompting of Salieri -- "too many
notes". I really need to dumb it down for myself in those late miles,
when the brain's not working so well anymore.

On 2007-12-06, I2Run <no_i2run_spam@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Frank Boettcher" wrote
>| Questions about pace groups, have never done that.
>|
>| When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
>| that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
>| instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
>| 3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
>| faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
>| strike out a little faster in the last third or so. Anyone have
>| experience with using a pace group with this situation?
>
> I didn't have one or didn't know in my first three marathons,
> but I did make use of one in the most recent one.
> I did and would choose 10 min faster group to allow the
> fading at the end.

Self fulfilling prophecy -- if you go out hard to "allow for fading at the end", you
certainly will fade at the end.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Elflord" wrote
| > I didn't have one or didn't know in my first three marathons,
| > but I did make use of one in the most recent one.
| > I did and would choose 10 min faster group to allow the
| > fading at the end.
|
| Self fulfilling prophecy -- if you go out hard to "allow for fading at the end", you
| certainly will fade at the end.

'Fading' is relative, works differently for different people.
When I was fading in the last few miles, I was passing people
in bunches in my last 3 marathons. My pace didn't drop too much
in the last 6, compared to the first 20 miles. I even had +ve splits
in the last 6 in one of them.

I see your point that even and +ve splits are the most desirable.
But you are 'experienced', running for a long time and you know
your limits.
But being relatively new to the sport and improving,
I didn't quite know what my potential was. Instead of starting slow
and ending up slower, I chose to start moderately faster.
I chose more conservative Purdy's estimate as
my fastest possible pace from a 5K/4 miler @ 6:3x/6:4x pace.

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:21:00 -0800 (PST), "Tom B."
<tom.banchy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Dec 6, 9:12 am, Frank Boettcher <fboettc...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Questions about pace groups, have never done that.
>>
>> When running a marathon and joining a pace group if there is no group
>> that matches your target time should you go lower or higher. For
>> instance, if my target time is 3:50:00 and there is a group for
>> 3:40:00 and a group for 4:00:00, would it be better to go with the
>> faster pace and potentially fade, or go with the slower group and
>> strike out a little faster in the last third or so. Anyone have
>> experience with using a pace group with this situation?
>>
>> And will a pace group leader normally go out much slower than pace,
>> ramp up to pace and be negative to the pace at some point in the
>> second half.
>
>I've led pace groups twice (same race, in 2005 and 2006).
>
>In the example you give here (goal is 3:50, pace groups at 3:40 and
>4:00), I would strongly advise that you don't run with either group.
>+/- 10 minutes in a marathon is about +/- 23 seconds per mile --
>that's a HUGE deviation from a pacing strategy. Might be OK for one
>single mile if it was all up or downhill. Don't do it!
>
>Here's what I would do instead, and actually this is just what I did
>when I was pacing:
>
>Start with your goal time and whip up a little Excel spreadsheet with
>the exact mile splits at each mile marker to produce that goal time.
>Then go find all the miles where your elapsed time is close to an
>exact minute (plus or minus 5-10 seconds). Round that time to the
>nearest minute and consider it to be one of your "checkpoints". I
>think in most cases you'll have a checkpoint every 4-6 miles (depends
>on how close your goal pace is to xx:00/mi or xx:30/mi).
>
>Now you've got a manageable amount of information to handle during the
>race -- your goal pace per mile, plus about 5-6 other checkpoint
>times. Keep track of each mile's split, and ease your pace up or down
>gradually if you're way off. Then use the checkpoints to see how
>close you are to the overall goal every so often. I used a small slip
>of paper, but I suppose you could laminate it or write it on plastic.
>
>It's not quite as easy as just following a pacer, and it means you
>need to own a watch that records enough splits, but I've found that it
>works pretty well. Also, following a plan like this means that you're
>actually aiming at a specific time goal, and you can't just hook up
>with other runners to have some company. But it's the best way I know
>of to squeeze out your best possible performance.

Sounds like a reasonable plan. I would need a good watch, though,
primarily with large, crisp, numbers. I quit using watches because,
while my normal vision remains uncorrected, my close vision is at
least 3.00 diopter. Hard to read a watch or any small print notes
without reading glasses and not going to take those with me.

But then, I've never used a true running watch. Seven bucks, Walmart,
with the largest display possible.

My best times in shorter races were obtained when I happened upon
someone or a group going just slightly faster than I wanted to go and
I determined to stay with them as long as possible. Not sure that is
prudent for a marathon distance with an early empty tank as a posible
outcome.

Well, thanks to all for the the advice.

Frank
>
>To answer the second part of your query, a good pace group leader
>should try to hit as close as possible to dead-even splits between
>first 13 and second 13. I also set a "real" target goal of 20-30
>seconds under the stated time (just in case), and that's what I used
>to work up the checkpoint times. The biggest risk you'll face with a
>pace group is getting a yahoo who's never done it before and just
>tries to wing it. I think this happens a fair bit, and there's all
>kinds of stories floating around about pace groups being 5-10 minutes
>ahead of pace. Personally, I wouldn't risk it in a race that I had
>trained hard for.

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:21:00 -0800 (PST), "Tom B."
<tom.banchy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Dec 6, 9:12 am, Frank Boettcher <fboettc...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Questions about pace groups, . . .
>. . . .
>Start with your goal time and whip up a little Excel spreadsheet with
>the exact mile splits . . .
> . . . use the checkpoints to see how
>close you are to the overall goal every so often. I used a small slip
>of paper, but I suppose you could laminate it or write it on plastic.
> . . . .

I print things out and then cover both sides with 2" wide clear
packaging tape. Poor man's lamination. (I scan, crop, print, mark
route, and laminate trail maps, for example.)
--
Daniel ( deltaechomike@usa.net )

In article <ljcgl3tiffarm0g1httv6thtg8iie1b5u2@4ax.com>,
joe positive <kcollin5@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> I have never stayed with a pace group for an entire race, so feel
> free to discount this advice.

The Nike Women's Marathon web site allows you to print pace bands for
the course. I didn't do that, but after reading this thread, I checked
it out and compared it to the mile splits recorded by my Garmin 301. I
entered my finishing time on the web site to get those splits.

At the end of 12 miles, I was about three and a half minutes behind the
pace band, but I made it all up in the last 1.1 miles. For some reason,
they had the 13th mile as the slowest mile of the course, but it was my
second-fastest mile.

--
13.1 Because I can

Michelle <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in news:michelle-
B4A3D3.16182007122007@news.east.cox.net:

> At the end of 12 miles, I was about three and a half minutes behind the
> pace band,

Were they trannys too?