Determining FTP and power training zones?

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Can someone please point me in the right direction in terms of testing for and calculating FTP. I have a Power Tap Pro on both my road bike and track bike. Once I have determined my FTP how do I use this in terms of calculating training zones for purposes of training for the 4000m individual pursuit? (basically what type of intervals at what power outputs, as a percentage of FTP, do I need to look at doing?) Thanks, any advice would be appreciated.

Can someone please point me in the right direction in terms of testing for and calculating FTP. I have a Power Tap Pro on both my road bike and track bike. Once I have determined my FTP how do I use this in terms of calculating training zones for purposes of training for the 4000m individual pursuit? (basically what type of intervals at what power outputs, as a percentage of FTP, do I need to look at doing?) Thanks, any advice would be appreciated.http://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gif (1 user) More options Jun 21 2004, 11:57 am
From: Andy Coggan <watt... (http://groups.google.ca/groups/unlock?msg=e635fac39afac44b&hl=en&_done=/group/wattage/browse_thread/thread/df47bc3a44cfefe2/40a47d2138aa4dc1%3Fhl%3Den%26lnk%3Dgst%26q%3Dseven%2Bdeadly%2BCoggan)@topica.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:57:00 -0700
Subject: Seven deadly sins.


...er, ways of determining your functional threshold power (roughly in
order of increasing certainty):


1) from inspection of a ride file.
2) from power distribution profile from multiple rides.
3) from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it
is done).
4) based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.
5) using critical power testing and analysis.
6) from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals
done in training.
7) from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of
performance is performance itself).
Note the key words "hard", "routinely", and "average" in methods 4, 6,
and 7...

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794

http://cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

For the pursuit there are some good coaches on here

Now that winter is here, almost all of my training will be done on a stationary bike. My power output indoors is typically 10-15% lower than what I acheive outdoors (for me, 'outdoors' means 'sustained climbs'). So should I base my power training zones on FTP determined indoors (since that's where I'll be training) or outdoors (since that's what I know I can acheive)?
-- Bryan

Now that winter is here, almost all of my training will be done on a stationary bike. My power output indoors is typically 10-15% lower than what I acheive outdoors (for me, 'outdoors' means 'sustained climbs'). So should I base my power training zones on FTP determined indoors (since that's where I'll be training) or outdoors (since that's what I know I can acheive)?
-- BryanYo Bryan,
To paraphrase the good Dr. Coggan - you can only do what you can do....
Your trainer should get easier with practice but there's no sense in setting yourself up for failure with high numbers based on a trip up Mt. Rose at intensities you can't sustain indoors.

I'm gonna be inside for the next 6 months or so and although I could hit about the same power numbers indoors or out last spring I'm struggling while on the trainer this fall. It's getting a bit easier with indoor time, but right now my 20 to 30 minute efforts are still low compared to what I was doing regularly outdoors as recently as three weeks ago. I haven't shifted my FTP down in WKO+ since I don't think it's really dropped and don't think my muscles care whether I'm bored stiff and sweating like a pig indoors. But I don't beat myself up in terms of the power I can sustain. It's a bit lower than I was typically doing outside, but it's still very good SST training and it's the best I can manage right now.

So anyway, I'd suggest setting your levels based on what you can do indoors, hopefully they'll rise quicker than usual as you get accustomed to the trainer but if not you can look forward to a nice jump next spring when you get outside again.

Later,
Dave

http://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gifhttp://groups.google.ca/groups/img/clear_bg_yellow_star_on.gif (1 user) More options Jun 21 2004, 11:57 am
From: Andy Coggan <watt... (http://groups.google.ca/groups/unlock?msg=e635fac39afac44b&hl=en&_done=/group/wattage/browse_thread/thread/df47bc3a44cfefe2/40a47d2138aa4dc1%3Fhl%3Den%26lnk%3Dgst%26q%3Dseven%2Bdeadly%2BCoggan)@topica.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:57:00 -0700
Subject: Seven deadly sins.


...er, ways of determining your functional threshold power (roughly in
order of increasing certainty):


1) from inspection of a ride file.
2) from power distribution profile from multiple rides.
3) from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it
is done).
4) based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.
5) using critical power testing and analysis.
6) from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals
done in training.
7) from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of
performance is performance itself).
Note the key words "hard", "routinely", and "average" in methods 4, 6,
and 7...

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794

http://cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

For the pursuit there are some good coaches on here"1) from inspection of a ride file"

That's a little vague. Anyone care to devine Mr. Coggan's words there. For me, I'll pick a ride file based on a hard effort or race and highlight the best 20 min block and base FTP on NP.

"1) from inspection of a ride file"

That's a little vague. Anyone care to devine Mr. Coggan's words there. For me, I'll pick a ride file based on a hard effort or race and highlight the best 20 min block and base FTP on NP.
(roughly in order of increasing certainty):

doesn't that say it all?

re your suggestion, where did Dr. Coggan mention 20-minutes?

:D

I prefer #6 but how does one do that in SST season? Sure, your FTP is at least what you can do for 6x20 or 3x30 or 1x90, etc., but unless you increase intensity and do a 3x20 near 100%, it's hard to get an idea of how high FTP might be.

(roughly in order of increasing certainty):

doesn't that say it all?

re your suggestion, where did Dr. Coggan mention 20-minutes?

:DYes, that's fine, but it still doesn't say HOW one might go about interpreting a ride file.

And no, he didn't mention 20 minutes. I did. It that heresy?

I'm indebted to the guy for the way I approach training as much as anyone, but can we ease up on the Coggan worship? It borders on the creepy.

I prefer #6 but how does one do that in SST season? Sure, your FTP is at least what you can do for 6x20 or 3x30 or 1x90, etc., but unless you increase intensity and do a 3x20 near 100%, it's hard to get an idea of how high FTP might be.Well, that problem isn't limited to method #6. If you don't push yourself up to and beyond FTP then no method gives you a good FTP estimate. Do a 40 Km TT at Tempo pace and that will underestimate your FTP as well.

Personally I push pretty hard one day a week or at least one day every other week even during SST base building. I think of it as my mini time trial day where I get to challenge my best 20 or 30 minute efforts. It's efforts from those days I use to estimate FTP progress. Other days are ridden at lower intensitites but the individual efforts are held longer.

You can still get a rough estimate of FTP or at least improvement by tracking how long you can hold a sub-FTP SST effort. If you typically ride an effort of say 85% of FTP and hold it for half an hour or 45 minutes and after a few weeks are able to extend it longer to say 50 minutes or an hour then you've observed progress. You might not be able to extrapolate an exact FTP from that but do you really need to? You know enough to bump the power up on your longer efforts and to continue to improve. If you really want to know your FTP you can do an occasional testing day where you really push for your best efforts or do a MAP test or some Monod CP efforts but realistically you don't need a dead on FTP number to continue to train and improve.

-Dave

but realistically you don't need a dead on FTP number to continue to train and improve .

I agree. Besides, with any of the above methods of determining FTP, it's pretty darned near impossible to get a dead on FTP number regardless of the method.

Although I'm starting to think that using one gives the best consistency.

"1) from inspection of a ride file"

That's a little vague. Anyone care to devine Mr. Coggan's words there. For me, I'll pick a ride file based on a hard effort or race and highlight the best 20 min block and base FTP on NP.

I'll do my best, but sometimes its hard to figure out what he's thinking. ;)

Seriously, what I meant was to display the data as a graph of power vs. time (or distance), then look for lengthier periods during which power is at a quasi-plateau. Assuming that the person was actually pushing themselves quite hard during the ride, their power during periods these periods will often - although definitely not always - be right around their functional threshold power. This is because of the highly non-linear relationship between power and physiological strain, which encourages us to only ride right up to our functional threshold power, and not spend time above it unless necessary. As such, this "visual inspection" approach and the "histogram drop-off" method are really based on the same tendency, just identified in different ways.

"1) from inspection of a ride file"

That's a little vague. Anyone care to devine Mr. Coggan's words there. ...Start by looking at the power distribution histogram, play with bin sizes and overall range and look for a sharp step down between adjacent bins. This assumes of course that you pushed yourself pretty hard during the ride and bumped up against and a bit beyond your FTP at some point. If it's your own ride file you can also compare it to places where you felt great or perhaps suffered and or got dropped, that's a pretty big clue that you've passed your FTP and couldn't sustain the effort.

Personally I think 20 minutes is a bit short for NP based estimates but it's an interesting idea. I guess if you ride a lot of group rides or train on rolling terrain that approach might be your best choice. I'm curious what I'll see if I go back and look at that from some rides vs. my FTP at the time. Interesting concpept, but I do wonder if 20 minutes is long enough for using NP.

-Dave
[edit]-Looks like some dude beat me to it, but for fear of worshipping some random internet dude I'll suggest that I'm right and he's blowin' smoke ;)

Looks like some dude beat me to it, but for fear of worshipping some random internet dude I'll suggest that I'm right and he's blowin' smoke ;)

Sycophant;)


I'm not really wed to the 20 minute time standard, but I do find it useful just as a means of comparison to level 4 2x20s. Also, it's relatively hard to find a block effort in a road race or crit where a rider is pretty much at his limit for the entire time. More realistically, our hypothetical rider might be in a break for 20 minutes or so, which you can more or less see on the graph, then I'll just highlight that block and that will give me a number - not a precise number, but a place to start. I'll also compare that to the bin step down method, but the true magic step down is not always plainly obvious, and I've found that that method can give a number on the high side. Narrowing the range to get a more precise number often makes the magic step down even harder to determine.

...it's relatively hard to find a block effort in a road race or crit where a rider is pretty much at his limit for the entire time...Yeah, no argument there. There were only a couple of mass start races last season where my power was steady enough and hard enough to be useful for estimating FTP in a continuous way and those were either crits near my max or road events with really long climbs. Time trials were more useful but most of those were relatively short as part of weekend stage races.
... but the true magic step down is not always plainly obvious, and I've found that that method can give a number on the high side. Narrowing the range to get a more precise number often makes the magic step down even harder to determine.Yeah, that can be tough as well but I've usually been able to get a pretty good estimate by playing with bin sizes and narrowing the histogram range to roughly +/- 100 watts from where I expect my FTP to fall. Last year I was gaining power all season, probably because I was coming back from many years away from racing. Anyway during times of FTP progress the histogram method only worked when I limited the date range to the last month or 28 days. A season long histogram really didn't show an obvious step down regardless of bin size which makes sense because FTP was a moving target over the complete year. Even then, I looked at the histogram method as a rough estimate to be tested in training so in the end either a series of long near maximal intervals or an actual 40km TT ended up being the deciding test.

I think one factor is how much training vs. racing folks are doing. When I lived in the bay area I raced more than I trained with pretty mediocre results. Living in Western Wyoming that's reversed and I train a lot more than I race now. I also race better when I do race. More training means I do push for near max 20 to 30 minute efforts at least every other week during the season and use those as the basis for estimating FTP. I suspect I wouldn't be doing very many of those long hard L4 efforts if I was racing weekly. I also have more time and energy for a Monod CP test every six weeks or so and use that to refine my FTP estimates as well as to help me predict best pacing for shorter TTs.

The best reasons I can think of for really nailing down FTP are to increase accuracy of ATL, CTL and TSB in the PMC and to nail pacing for actual 40km TTs. Those can be important, but for the most part I think tracking the power you can sustain for long steady efforts and trying to either increase the time or power of those efforts is all you need to continue improving.

-Dave