Evangelical Disconnect

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Creationism is good science
ROTFL.

You gotta be kidding me!

We know that you don't believe in separation of church and state and seem quite miffed that the Supreme Court doesn't support your view. That factoid implies a heck of a lot.I have to admit I disagree with a number of supreme court decisions most having to with them completely ignoring the 10th amendment (all powers not given to the federal government are the states or the peoples-I paraphrase). Justice Black was ruling on whether or not we should publicly fund private schools. He was a member of the KKK and very anti-catholic which many of the private schools were at the time. In his decision he brought up Thomas Jefferson and his indicating there should be a wall of separation between the church and the state (Jefferson put this in the Virginia constitution). Jefferson did not write the US constitution or the bill of rights, Madison was the main author. The founders very well could have used Jefferson's terminology but they did not as some of the states did in fact have state religions at the time and the purpose of the wording was to prevent the federal government from intruding on religious freedom not to eliminate religious expression from all levels of public society. How do I believe Black should have handled the case? Give it back to the states. No where in the constitution does it give the federal government the power to regulate schools. Virginia has in it's constitution specific wording (written by Jefferson) concerning the separation of church and government. I see no problem with UMichigan putting in foot baths for its Muslim students, they are not saying you have to be Muslim, nor are they breaking a law by putting in the foot baths. Again, if a high school wants to have a prayer or not have a prayer that is up the high school. However, the federal government cannot make a law requiring it or preventing it (according to my interpretation of the first amendment, read it and see what you think). Now, where we get to the part that annoys you, if people guided by their values, which are probably a function of their faith or lack thereof, elect representatives which make laws reflecting those values then unless those laws are unconstitutional we all have to live by them. A bientot.

well, good cyclist that we are, here goes our logo:

"Cycling is my religion, Indurain my god and my cycling club my only and true church"



(only kidding- or not??:):):rolleyes:

+1 to every Bro Deal post.

On the Gay issue. Its obvious that homosexuality is a threat to the Christian/Old Testament model of "creation". If people are born with a genetic predisposition to having sex with the same gender, it kind of invalidates God's creation of them.

I just find it unbelievable that Christians can think that all gays and lesbians are intrinsically heterosexual, but choose to be "evil". That they choose homosexuality, like other sinners choose crime. It makes you think that a lot of Christian leaders and Christians themselves are closet homosexuals (like Ted Haggerty). I have not one human cell of inclination of attraction to the same sex. So it is obvious/reasonable to me that the tendency is genetic. It is also a phenomena present in the animal kingdom. It is not some disease that is going to spread to our children if we don't fight it. Homosexuality might become more obvious to the casual observer when the Ted Haggerty's of this world come out of the closet. But that will be only because homosexuals will be happier.

Having said that, I am still struggling with the sight of two guys kissing in public. But that is just my problem.

Now when I use the term "Christian" I am referring to the stereotypical Bible Belt Christian hardliner. There are obviously Christians who are a little more sympathetic, like Jesus was I suppose.

I disagree. Creationism is good science and neither evolution or crationism should be taught in a tax funded school. BTW Darwin beleived in creation...well kind ofOMG. This is the scariest post I have ever read on Cyclingforums.com. I "pray" for the children who may be shielded from knowledge in the future. And that the US isn't dragged into the Dark Ages by people who have this belief.

OMG. This is the scariest post I have ever read on Cyclingforums.com. I "pray" for the children who may be shielded from knowledge in the future. And that the US isn't dragged into the Dark Ages by people who have this belief. So you are in favor of teaching creationism in public scools? seems a little radical to me..... I dont. As far pretending that there isnt a gay lobby that isnt tyring to promote an agenda and force it into public schools is beyond turing a blind eye. As far as teaching evolution in schools. There are Many note worthy scientists that beleive is is junk science too. IMO teaching either becomes teaching religion in schools. The foundation to being agnostic, is evolution as you believe. Teach it to your kid yourself, as I will teach my kid my beliefs. Its fair to both sides and doesnt ask the taxpayers to fund either belief

So you are in favor of teaching creationism in public scools? seems a little radical to me..... I dont. As far pretending that there isnt a gay lobby that isnt tyring to promote an agenda and force it into public schools is beyond turing a blind eye. As far as teaching evolution in schools. There are Many note worthy scientists that beleive is is junk science too. IMO teaching either becomes teaching religion in schools. The foundation to being agnostic, is evolution as you believe. Teach it to your kid yourself, as I will teach my kid my beliefs. Its fair to both sides and doesnt ask the taxpayers to fund either beliefsorry to say and no offence meant, but it seems almost "surreal" to see that education science and religion are still mixed and debatable issues "over there". the Roman catholic church "apologised" to galileo just a few years back, and now you come "questioning" evolution theories , which honestly have been questioned scientifically but just in as far as it reflected Darwing own beliefs....... anyway to cut it short... Science is something no child should be deprived of and religion is something to be "felt" not taught or imposed so it does not really belong in the science lab........ if you waste time and energy over such issues, no wonder american educational system seems to be all but successful.

Crankyfeet, I have always found the "homosexuality is a choice" argument interesting. It's really a political slogan used to make their intolerance appear acceptable. It actually poses huge problems for them. If homosexuality is a choice, so is heterosexuality. This leaves no support for one leading to more rights than the other. bk

We really should treat christians like they treat gays. We know they can dish it out, but; can they take it?

So you are in favor of teaching creationism in public scools? seems a little radical to me..... I dont. As far pretending that there isnt a gay lobby that isnt tyring to promote an agenda and force it into public schools is beyond turing a blind eye. As far as teaching evolution in schools. There are Many note worthy scientists that believe is is junk science too. IMO teaching either becomes teaching religion in schools. The foundation to being agnostic, is evolution as you believe. Teach it to your kid yourself, as I will teach my kid my beliefs. Its fair to both sides and doesnt ask the taxpayers to fund either beliefCreationism has as much right to be taught in schools as palm-reading and astrology. Evolution is not a religious belief because it contradicts the Old Testament. Similarly creationism is anything but a science.

I would be surprised if anymore than 0.001% of scientists have the belief that evolution and creationism are theories of equal scientific validity. Is this the spin you are fed in Sunday sermons? Because its obvious you haven't read a science journal or opened your eyes to the opinions of the scientific world. Oh silly me, you don't have to, because you already know all the answers. Hmmmm... I wonder where we would be today if all scientific discovery was discouraged/banished because we already had all we needed in our faith in the Good Book.

Just because evolution contradicts the creation story of the world being made in a week - six thousand years ago, doesn't make it a religious belief. Just as if the Old Testament told us that gravity was caused by angels pulling on everything, wouldn't make Einstein's Theory of Relativity a religious belief either.

The philosophy that you display here is very similar, if not the same, as the attitude that they have in Saudi Arabia with regards to scientific learning. You should visit there and see for yourself the effect of denouncing scientific learning.

Atomic theory and the phenomena of protons and neutrons and electrons are just theories as well. The theory hasn't been invalidated by any empirical studies since its inception. So far it has been 100% effective in modelling physical behavior of materials. And has led to many other findings and discoveries. But no one has ever "seen" a proton or an electron. Not to say a better theory doesn't emerge in the future. Like Newtonian gravity explained everything in the real world, except then Einstein's theory, whilst 99.9% congruent with Newton's, explained phenomena better, so was adopted.

Evolutionary theory has been cross-checked from hundred's of different directions and held-up. Creationism is a story from a historic book that a section of the world's population believes to be the word of God, that has no evidence in nature, and is in fact contradicted in nature.

But what is evident and scares me the most, is that a vast amount of people share your feeling that scientific learning is a threat to Christianity. Nothing is more scary than a fundamentalist backed into a corner. See Islamic terrorism for an example of where it can lead to.

Crankyfeet, I have always found the "homosexuality is a choice" argument interesting. It's really a political slogan used to make their intolerance appear acceptable. It actually poses huge problems for them. If homosexuality is a choice, so is heterosexuality. This leaves no support for one leading to more rights than the other. bk

We really should treat christians like they treat gays. We know they can dish it out, but; can they take it?It has to be that way or it invalidates God, because why would he create them gay? For what purpose?

But to preach that it is a choice, means that you have to accept that it was a choice for oneself, and that oneself resisted the "temptation" of gay and lesbian sex. Which leads to the conclusion that those who preach that it is a choice, have gay or bisexual tendencies themselves, but chose to limit themselves to heterosexual love (at least as much as possible in Ted Haggerty's case).

I can only fathom this is the situation because I have no gay proclivities whatsoever. So it would have been unfair for God not to test me with temptation, whilst testing others, would it not?.

As far pretending that there isnt a gay lobby that isnt tyring to promote an agenda and force it into public schools is beyond turing a blind eye.Billsworld...once you understand that it isn't a communicable disease, and that you and your kids can't catch it or be converted to it, your paranoi will subside...and you will start to live out Christ's big message...that we ALL belong equally in God's world...and deserve acceptance and love, just as the meek and the poor do. The promotion of the acceptance of gay's in society, is bred from eons of discrimination. Much like in days gone by, when African Americans and American Indians and "witches" were officially labeled as lesser, or evil, or less deserving of human respect, gays are still suffering that discrimination today.

If homosexuality is a choice, so is heterosexuality. This leaves no support for one leading to more rights than the other. bk
Well, I think the fundamentalist Christian point is that heterosexuality is the Godly choice, and homosexuality is the sinner's, satanly, choice.

So I don't think that you can conclude, according to Christian logic, that either choice conveys the same rights. Much the same as a person who chooses murder doesn't have the same rights as a person who chooses not to murder. Speaking from a fundamentalist Christian point of view.

My point is that it is not a choice. Even a natural bisexual would be denying a part of themselves to act solely heterosexual IMO. So I believe homosexuality is a proclivity that exists within....genetic...intrinsic....there from birth. It aint in me.

Creationism has as much right to be taught in schools as palm-reading and astrology. Evolution is not a religious belief because it contradicts the Old Testament. Similarly creationism is anything but a science.

I would be surprised if anymore than 0.001% of scientists have the belief that evolution and creationism are theories of equal scientific validity. Is this the spin you are fed in Sunday sermons? Because its obvious you haven't read a science journal or opened your eyes to the opinions of the scientific world. Oh silly me, you don't have to, because you already know all the answers. Hmmmm... I wonder where we would be today if all scientific discovery was discouraged/banished because we already had all we needed in our faith in the Good Book.

Just because evolution contradicts the creation story of the world being made in a week - six thousand years ago, doesn't make it a religious belief. Just as if the Old Testament told us that gravity was caused by angels pulling on everything, wouldn't make Einstein's Theory of Relativity a religious belief either.

The philosophy that you display here is very similar, if not the same, as the attitude that they have in Saudi Arabia with regards to scientific learning. You should visit there and see for yourself the effect of denouncing scientific learning.

Atomic theory and the phenomena of protons and neutrons and electrons are just theories as well. The theory hasn't been invalidated by any empirical studies since its inception. So far it has been 100% effective in modelling physical behavior of materials. And has led to many other findings and discoveries. But no one has ever "seen" a proton or an electron. Not to say a better theory doesn't emerge in the future. Like Newtonian gravity explained everything in the real world, except then Einstein's theory, whilst 99.9% congruent with Newton's, explained phenomena better, so was adopted.

Evolutionary theory has been cross-checked from hundred's of different directions and held-up. Creationism is a story from a historic book that a section of the world's population believes to be the word of God, that has no evidence in nature, and is in fact contradicted in nature.

But what is evident and scares me the most, is that a vast amount of people share your feeling that scientific learning is a threat to Christianity. Nothing is more scary than a fundamentalist backed into a corner. See Islamic terrorism for an example of where it can lead to. For me to start posting links and making arguments about what scientists dont believe in evolution and then to have you and everyone else counter would take forever. Do you really think that children cant be taught science without confronting evolution and creationism . In Colleg I took A+P, advanced A+P, nutrition, zoology, knesiology, and biology and had plenty to learn without ever confronting or needing to confront the subject of evolution.( I wasnt the best student either) I also find it odd that the left wing types , cry like babies when they think their rights are being sqeezed, but fail to see that they do the same exact thing. The vast majority of Americans have faith in a creator. You however want to seize their money at gunpoint , distribute it to the public schools and teach their kids that God doesnt exist. All that I proposed in this meaningless discussion was a theory that prevents either side from imposing its veiws on the other. If you think the education system in the US will come crashing down without teaching evolution, you are as crazy as the loons in Portland Maine that are giving birth controll pills to 11 year old girls. IMO most of our students are having trouble dealing with basic reading writing and math. Maybe the top 2-3% of high school juniors and seniors are qualified to deal with the topic of evolution vs creationism. I am sure they can wait another year or two

Creationism has as much right to be taught in schools as palm-reading and astrology. Evolution is not a religious belief because it contradicts the Old Testament. Similarly creationism is anything but a science.

I would be surprised if anymore than 0.001% of scientists have the belief that evolution and creationism are theories of equal scientific validity. Is this the spin you are fed in Sunday sermons? Because its obvious you haven't read a science journal or opened your eyes to the opinions of the scientific world. Oh silly me, you don't have to, because you already know all the answers. Hmmmm... I wonder where we would be today if all scientific discovery was discouraged/banished because we already had all we needed in our faith in the Good Book.

Just because evolution contradicts the creation story of the world being made in a week - six thousand years ago, doesn't make it a religious belief. Just as if the Old Testament told us that gravity was caused by angels pulling on everything, wouldn't make Einstein's Theory of Relativity a religious belief either.

The philosophy that you display here is very similar, if not the same, as the attitude that they have in Saudi Arabia with regards to scientific learning. You should visit there and see for yourself the effect of denouncing scientific learning.

Atomic theory and the phenomena of protons and neutrons and electrons are just theories as well. The theory hasn't been invalidated by any empirical studies since its inception. So far it has been 100% effective in modelling physical behavior of materials. And has led to many other findings and discoveries. But no one has ever "seen" a proton or an electron. Not to say a better theory doesn't emerge in the future. Like Newtonian gravity explained everything in the real world, except then Einstein's theory, whilst 99.9% congruent with Newton's, explained phenomena better, so was adopted.

Evolutionary theory has been cross-checked from hundred's of different directions and held-up. Creationism is a story from a historic book that a section of the world's population believes to be the word of God, that has no evidence in nature, and is in fact contradicted in nature.

But what is evident and scares me the most, is that a vast amount of people share your feeling that scientific learning is a threat to Christianity. Nothing is more scary than a fundamentalist backed into a corner. See Islamic terrorism for an example of where it can lead to.


CF : I'm RC and I don't view science as being a threat.
In fact, I see the pursuit of scientific enquiry as a a very valuable addition to mankinds store of knowledge.
For example, we know that the earth is 4 billion years old - according to the Bible, the earth is 6,000 years old.
If you accept the literal interpretation of the Bible - and many do - then in the case of the age of the earth, the Bible is clearly wrong.
Or more precisely it's incorrectly interpreted by those who accept the literal truth.

The great Christian scientist Michael Faraday stated that scientific enquiry and discovery is ultimately an insight in to Gods work.
If it is good enough for a christian like Faraday, then it's good enough for me.

CF : I'm RC and I don't view science as being a threat.
In fact, I see the pursuit of scientific enquiry as a a very valuable addition to mankinds store of knowledge.
For example, we know that the earth is 4 billion years old - according to the Bible, the earth is 6,000 years old.
If you accept the literal interpretation of the Bible - and many do - then in the case of the age of the earth, the Bible is clearly wrong.
Or more precisely it's incorrectly interpreted by those who accept the literal truth.

The great Christian scientist Michael Faraday stated that scientific enquiry and discovery is ultimately an insight in to Gods work.
If it is good enough for a christian like Faraday, then it's good enough for me.
The Bible does not say the earth is 6,000 years old. That's an extrapolation people make...based on making a lot of assumptions in addition to what they think the literal interpretation of Scripture is.

There are many divergent views by Bible-believing Christians about the creation account in Genesis. The fact remains that the events are in the correct order...and the Genesis account is quite different from every other religion's "myths" about gods and goddesses.

A good website to check out is www.reasons.org (http://www.reasons.org) which is run by astronomers who came to believe in Christianity through their scientific inquiry, and who do not believe in the "young earth" theory.

For me to start posting links and making arguments about what scientists dont believe in evolution and then to have you and everyone else counter would take forever. Do you really think that children cant be taught science without confronting evolution and creationism . In Colleg I took A+P, advanced A+P, nutrition, zoology, knesiology, and biology and had plenty to learn without ever confronting or needing to confront the subject of evolution.( I wasnt the best student either) I also find it odd that the left wing types , cry like babies when they think their rights are being sqeezed, but fail to see that they do the same exact thing. The vast majority of Americans have faith in a creator. You however want to seize their money at gunpoint , distribute it to the public schools and teach their kids that God doesnt exist. All that I proposed in this meaningless discussion was a theory that prevents either side from imposing its veiws on the other. If you think the education system in the US will come crashing down without teaching evolution, you are as crazy as the loons in Portland Maine that are giving birth controll pills to 11 year old girls. IMO most of our students are having trouble dealing with basic reading writing and math. Maybe the top 2-3% of high school juniors and seniors are qualified to deal with the topic of evolution vs creationism. I am sure they can wait another year or two...should have taken spelling as well...

I disagree. Creationism is good science and neither evolution or crationism should be taught in a tax funded school. BTW Darwin beleived in creation...well kind ofHe did not. He was an atheist.

Thats a nice theory, but it called Marxism. Wrap it up and call it Scandinavian bla bla bla. Its Marxism or at the very least Utopian Socialism and it doent work. As soon as you remove personal responsabilty from society it begins to crack. If teenagers had consequences to getting pregnant they would get pregnant less often. In the U.S. we put them in programs,give them day care, welfare, food stamps section 8 housing and expect them to behave differently. Funny thing is I have never seen a pregnant teenager in my church. And your right. The Libertarian Party is a bunch of crack pots. They take a bit of what I am saying too far, but in a pinch I would much prefer it to Marxism. The Pregnancy issue illustrates my point again. The left is forcing an agenda into the schools that ought to be dealt with in the home. If you want to go down yet another rabit trail I will give my thoughts on the causes of teen prenancy, but the subject that remains is BKs claim that his personal freedoms are being trounced on by Christians. My point remains that its the left that is forcing an agenda and doing the trouncicng . Christian are on the defense my freindQuite clearly, you have no idea about Marxism.
Or spelling.

Billsworld...once you understand that it isn't a communicable disease, and that you and your kids can't catch it or be converted to it, your paranoi will subside...and you will start to live out Christ's big message...that we ALL belong equally in God's world...and deserve acceptance and love, just as the meek and the poor do. The promotion of the acceptance of gay's in society, is bred from eons of discrimination. Much like in days gone by, when African Americans and American Indians and "witches" were officially labeled as lesser, or evil, or less deserving of human respect, gays are still suffering that discrimination today.In Lexington Mass. , a father was arrested when he went to scheduled meeting at the grade schhol that his son attends. He asked if his son could be excused from a class that taught sex ed featuring gay sex to his grade school son. He was also told that his son would not complete the grade without it. His son is 6 years old. A little Nazi sounding to me..ie , liberal...........And I am the one that is accepting , it is you that wants to exclude Christians from inclusion in your world.

CF : I'm RC and I don't view science as being a threat.
In fact, I see the pursuit of scientific enquiry as a a very valuable addition to mankinds store of knowledge.
That's because Catholicism realized that denying science was a long term losing proposition. American evangelicals are still stuck in the thirteenth century. We are lucky they are not upset about their money being "taken at gunpoint" and used to teach children the world is not flat.