Describe You're Best Threshold Workout

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I am seeing a real need to do threshold indoors as the weather turns colder. I'm thinking 4x10 between 101-106% FTP. Should I expect to be able to complete 40 minutes of threshold?

I am seeing a real need to do threshold indoors as the weather turns colder. I'm thinking 4x10 between 101-106% FTP. Should I expect to be able to complete 40 minutes of threshold?You should be able to finish 40 minutes of L4 in 4 blocks of 10 minutes each.

Personally I prefer fewer longer efforts like 2x20s or 3x15s. The way I look at it the first 8 minutes or so is just priming the pump. It's why you want to hold these efforts for at least 10 minutes to get some workout value from them. Sometimes I think of the first 8 minutes as paying the price of admission to SST or L4 efforts. I don't want to pay that price more times than necessary.

But sometimes shorter harder efforts like 10 minute repeats at 105% of FTP are a nice way to break through to higher end work so they have a place. Funny thing though I've made most of my FTP breakthroughs after periods of SST work nearer to 90% this season. I guess my point is that both have a place and are useful but in general holding L4 efforts a bit longer than the minimum of 10 minutes is a good idea.

-Dave

Thanks Dave I'll try 3x15 I'm not sure I could get back on the bike after 20 minutes above FT maybe that's a sign that I need to do more threshold.



You should be able to finish 40 minutes of L4 in 4 blocks of 10 minutes each.

Personally I preferer fewer longer efforts like 2x20s or 3x15s. The way I look at it the first 8 minutes or so is just priming the pump. It's why you want to hold these efforts for at least 10 minutes to get some workout value from them. Sometimes I think of the first 8 minutes as paying the price of admission to SST or L4 efforts. I don't want to pay that price more times than necessary.

But sometimes shorter harder efforts like 10 minute repeats at 105% of FTP are a nice way to break through to higher end work so they have a place. Funny thing though I've made most of my FTP breaktrhoughs after periods of SST work nearer to 90% this season. I guess my point is that both have a place and are useful but in general holding L4 efforts a bit longer than the minimum of 10 minutes is a good idea.

-Dave

I am seeing a real need to do threshold indoors as the weather turns colder. I'm thinking 4x10 between 101-106% FTP. Should I expect to be able to complete 40 minutes of threshold?

Yes, but based on my personal experience* I don't think this would be as effective at raising your functional threshold power as longer efforts at a somewhat lower intensity.

*I used to do lots and lots of workouts exactly as you describe.

Thanks Dr Coggan maybe targeting 100% for a 3x20 is the way to go.



Yes, but based on my personal experience* I don't think this would be as effective at raising your functional threshold power as longer efforts at a somewhat lower intensity.

*I used to do lots and lots of workouts exactly as you describe.

Yes, but based on my personal experience* I don't think this would be as effective at raising your functional threshold power as longer efforts at a somewhat lower intensity.

*I used to do lots and lots of workouts exactly as you describe.
Glad you brought up this point...I was wondering - is there physiological evidence and/or lab data that supports a 2x20 workout as being more effective than say, 1x30 or 35 @ 90-95% if what you propose above to be true????

I was wondering - is there physiological evidence and/or lab data that supports a 2x20 workout as being more effective than say, 1x30 or 35 @ 90-95%

No (and in fact I would consider them to be essentially equivalent).

I would have to say for me it was my last race. While it did not feel as hard as 2x20 or my 3x15s when I examined the data I was amazed at how long I was at threshold and how long I was not even at a tempo.

It would seem for about 30-40 minutes I was at threshold or way above it. Than for the rest of the time I was almost at nothing at all.

-Js


I am seeing a real need to do threshold indoors as the weather turns colder. I'm thinking 4x10 between 101-106% FTP. Should I expect to be able to complete 40 minutes of threshold?

i alternate days of 2-4x10 @ ~105-110% (mostly 3x) and 2-3x20 @ ~90%-100%... i like doing some of the higher intensity but limit it by doing the shorter duration... makes it less boring and lets you feel out your limits over different durations. sometimes i do 10-20-10 or other combinations too... if i'm feeling kinda good in a 2x10min i might do one of the intervals at 15min. i also start the 1st interval at the low end of the intensity i want to work at and go up so my last interval will be the highest ave power of the set... usually my 1st interval kind of sucks if not i purposefully hold back... 2nd/3rd ones you are good to go but hold back just a bit and last one i usually ride by feel and let my legs tell me how hard to ride, but still very much controlled and within the limits of the workout goal... last one almost always is the highest ave power... sometimes the last one sucks so i just ride it at lower intensity (sometimes after a recovery period)

i like to mix it up a bit and doing the 10min intervals at slightly higher intensity let you have a little bit of fun without burying yourself... 20min all the time make lots of sense but you also need to also maintian your sanity and mixing up durations and intensities let you do that...

Well I mixed it up but not on purpose I just did a 20, 20, 10 at 100% FTP I could have gone further but I needed to be able to go upstairs after I was done. Back in late August I did a 1 hour TT at that pace with no problems but this time with five minute rest breaks I couldn't finish and my HR was saying I was above threshold 18 minutes. I'll try this workout again Tuesday. Thanks for the replies.



i alternate days of 2-4x10 @ ~105-110% (mostly 3x) and 2-3x20 @ ~90%-100%... i like doing some of the higher intensity but limit it by doing the shorter duration... makes it less boring and lets you feel out your limits over different durations. sometimes i do 10-20-10 or other combinations too... if i'm feeling kinda good in a 2x10min i might do one of the intervals at 15min. i also start the 1st interval at the low end of the intensity i want to work at and go up so my last interval will be the highest ave power of the set... usually my 1st interval kind of sucks if not i purposefully hold back... 2nd/3rd ones you are good to go but hold back just a bit and last one i usually ride by feel and let my legs tell me how hard to ride, but still very much controlled and within the limits of the workout goal... last one almost always is the highest ave power... sometimes the last one sucks so i just ride it at lower intensity (sometimes after a recovery period)

i like to mix it up a bit and doing the 10min intervals at slightly higher intensity let you have a little bit of fun without burying yourself... 20min all the time make lots of sense but you also need to also maintian your sanity and mixing up durations and intensities let you do that...

Well I mixed it up but not on purpose I just did a 20, 20, 10 at 100% FTP I could have gone further but I needed to be able to go upstairs after I was done. Back in late August I did a 1 hour TT at that pace with no problems but this time with five minute rest breaks I couldn't finish and my HR was saying I was above threshold 18 minutes. I'll try this workout again Tuesday. Thanks for the replies.just drop it down to ~95%... the addaptation at that intensity is going to be bascially the same, it's going to be easier on you and you are going to be able to complete your workout and end up accomplishing more at the end of the day... uping that 5% is actually diminishing your total benefit not helping it. that's why i ease into my workout increasing intensity through the interval and from interval to interval so on a given day i know that i'm going to be able to complete my set if i can go harder on the last interval i may unleash the dogs a bit. basically you just want to put in your time at the prescibed intensity and then go home... anything above that is just gravy. don't let going that little bit harder take away from the total workout... it's not worth it at the end of the day.

I am seeing a real need to do threshold indoors as the weather turns colder. I'm thinking 4x10 between 101-106% FTP. Should I expect to be able to complete 40 minutes of threshold?my best gains have come from working at FTP or a tad over (say 1.00-1.03 FTP) with a main 'interval' ranging from 30-45min long. Add some special seasoning and you're done.

Currently, I've been experimenting with +/- 50W intervals. one workout with intervals 50W over FTP (L5) and another with an 'interval' 50W under FTP (LL4). I started those to get a mental/physical break from 'pure' FTP work. For folks weighing less than 100kg -- perhaps +/- 10-12% would be a better formula.

For those of us in the Northern Hemisphere and say who've taken a post-season break, it's a good time to experiment.

From instinct/feel/experience, I find longer steady-state efforts in the 0.95 to around 1.03FTP range to be very effective. Not saying one should do 'em year-round now ... but if I were racing in three-four months that's what I would be doing. I don't see much need/ benefit to chopping 'em into shorter pieces if you're doing them at a reasonable power level. Don't try & turn an L4 workout into L5 :eek: .

I'm going to give it one more try on Tuesday when I'm fresh after taking Sunday and Monday off. I think my late August FTP was high due to alot of VO2max that preceeded it but I should be able to do it when I'm fresh. I like a little challenge.:)



just drop it down to ~95%... the addaptation at that intensity is going to be bascially the same, it's going to be easier on you and you are going to be able to complete your workout and end up accomplishing more at the end of the day... uping that 5% is actually diminishing your total benefit not helping it. that's why i ease into my workout increasing intensity through the interval and from interval to interval so on a given day i know that i'm going to be able to complete my set if i can go harder on the last interval i may unleash the dogs a bit. basically you just want to put in your time at the prescibed intensity and then go home... anything above that is just gravy. don't let going that little bit harder take away from the total workout... it's not worth it at the end of the day.

What you say is ringing true here I haven't had alot of success lately with 92% 3x20s and I am considering a 6 week diet of mostly 95 to 100%.



my best gains have come from working at FTP or a tad over (say 1.00-1.03 FTP) with a main 'interval' ranging from 30-45min long. Add some special seasoning and you're done.

Currently, I've been experimenting with +/- 50W intervals. one workout with intervals 50W over FTP (L5) and another with an 'interval' 50W under FTP (LL4). I started those to get a mental/physical break from 'pure' FTP work. For folks weighing less than 100kg -- perhaps +/- 10-12% would be a better formula.

For those of us in the Northern Hemisphere and say who've taken a post-season break, it's a good time to experiment.

From instinct/feel/experience, I find longer steady-state efforts in the 0.95 to around 1.03FTP range to be very effective. Not saying one should do 'em year-round now ... but if I were racing in three-four months that's what I would be doing. I don't see much need/ benefit to chopping 'em into shorter pieces if you're doing them at a reasonable power level. Don't try & turn an L4 workout into L5 :eek: .

What you say is ringing true here I haven't had alot of success lately with 92% 3x20s and I am considering a 6 week diet of mostly 95 to 100%.but wiredued, as rmur17 has said it depends on where you are in yearly cycle... if you are in your post season wind down you don't want to spend tonnes of time doing really long painful higher intensity workouts... i know for myself as i start my builds in January (my racing season starts in April) i'll start this kind of stuff again... right now i'm just having fun and enjoying my rides and keeping my workouts farily loose and fairly unstructured.. doing some higher intensity, but not staying there for a long time. you don't want to burn out mentally and physically before the season even starts.

just drop it down to ~95%... the addaptation at that intensity is going to be bascially the same, it's going to be easier on you and you are going to be able to complete your workout and end up accomplishing more at the end of the day... uping that 5% is actually diminishing your total benefit not helping it. that's why i ease into my workout increasing intensity through the interval and from interval to interval so on a given day i know that i'm going to be able to complete my set if i can go harder on the last interval i may unleash the dogs a bit. basically you just want to put in your time at the prescibed intensity and then go home... anything above that is just gravy. don't let going that little bit harder take away from the total workout... it's not worth it at the end of the day.
Do you think this still apples if you can finish the set at higher intensities, I have been doing 2*20's at at least 110% of FTP, the last two minutes are very difficult, but i can just do this workout back to back after a good rest.

Also been trying 2 *3 *5 at about 125% Lt, but need a day off afterwards.

Or should i try 3*20 or 4*20 at 100% ???

Do you think this still apples if you can finish the set at higher intensities, I have been doing 2*20's at at least 110% of FTP, the last two minutes are very difficult, but i can just do this workout back to back after a good rest.

Also been trying 2 *3 *5 at about 125% Lt, but need a day off afterwards.

Or should i try 3*20 or 4*20 at 100% ???Are you sure your FTP isn't higher than you think?

Do you think this still apples if you can finish the set at higher intensities, I have been doing 2*20's at at least 110% of FTP, the last two minutes are very difficult, but i can just do this workout back to back after a good rest.

Also been trying 2 *3 *5 at about 125% Lt, but need a day off afterwards.

Or should i try 3*20 or 4*20 at 100% ???i have to agree with Alex Simmons... if you can do repeats of 20min @ 125% FTP, you've most certainly under estimated you FTP. what you are calling 125% FTP is likely really about 110% FTP. but that's good news, you are seeing results... time to change your FTP value.

i have to agree with Alex Simmons... if you can do repeats of 20min @ 125% FTP, you've most certainly under estimated you FTP. what you are calling 125% FTP is likely really about 110% FTP. but that's good news, you are seeing results... time to change your FTP value.
The thing is I actually cannot maintain anywhere near these intensities for any decent period of time without the rests, sometimes i cannot even do 20 minutes and have to stop at 15, but I generally can get them done, but with lots of effort.

I may have a persuiter type power profile, making the upper L4 low L5 significantly higher than FTP. But i would still expect that most peoples 20 min power is significantly higher than their hour power, at least 10% if not higher. If that is the case then you are only training at 90% of race pace when doing 2 *20 at 100 FTP. This is kind of easy training, you should be able to do it twice in the same day. If you are meant to do it this easy, then why not do more of it, maybey you could do it in 3-4 day blocks.

The thing is I actually cannot maintain anywhere near these intensities for any decent period of time without the rests, sometimes i cannot even do 20 minutes and have to stop at 15, but I generally can get them done, but with lots of effort.

I may have a persuiter type power profile, making the upper L4 low L5 significantly higher than FTP. But i would still expect that most peoples 20 min power is significantly higher than their hour power, at least 10% if not higher. If that is the case then you are only training at 90% of race pace when doing 2 *20 at 100 FTP. This is kind of easy training, you should be able to do it twice in the same day. If you are meant to do it this easy, then why not do more of it, maybey you could do it in 3-4 day blocks.

tongue in cheek: but isn't 2*3*5 with rest intervals very close to a 6*5 standard L5 workout? :D

What are the length of your rest intervals?

Even in that case 125% of FTP is quite strong for an L5 workout - not outlandishly high if, as you mention, you're strong in the 5MP power range. Personally I'm lucky to maintain ~113% FTP average interval power for L5 or smack in the middle of the range.