Can you get BASE RIDE benefits from a short hard ride?

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Hi,
I thought I read somewhere that it is possible to get the benefits usually derived from a Base Ride by doing a harder short ride. Is that possible? I'm just wondering because normally I would try to get in 3 hour base rides at this time of year. But I'm a little short on time. So for these days that I don't have 3 hours to ride, would doing a 1 hour hard ride be better than doing a 1 hour slow base ride? Anyone have any advice?

Thanks, http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Ariel

Well, the theory behind why you do base rides is this: you want to train your body to burn more of your stored fats when you are riding at lower effort so that when you have to ride harder you still have carbohydrates available for the quick energy you need. (yes you always need to burn carbs to utilize fats, but you want the proportion of fats to be higher at lower efforts) When you do a long hard ride it can be impossible to actually replace all the carbs you are burning through eating - you just can't digest fast enough, so you want to conserve as much of that ready energy as you can for the times you will need it - like for a sprint finish.

So if you subscribe to this theory then no, it makes no sense at all that a shorter faster ride would give you the *same* benefits as a longer slower one. That doesn't mean it may not be better from the standpoint of your staying more physically fit over the off season to do a shorter faster ride if that is all you have time to do.

Just do the hard 1hr ride. You'll thank yourself later.

Look up "sweet spot training" on google.

Read this, it's quite interesting: http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down.htm

Seems to make sense to me and, while the author is no qualified coach, he seems to have a lot of experience to back his claims and his thoughts seem to echo those who follow a 2x20 regime. Search for 2x20 on the power forum.

No.

Yes. Unless you are a pro and racing 4 or 5 hours at a pop, your time will be better spent doing shorter intense rides than doing the traditional long slow base ride.

Ariel,

Eden touched on this. But let me add my two cents.

What do you define as a benefit? If your goal is to finish a century, then you can ride long and then increase your miles as the season progresses so you know you can finish the event.

Now if you are racing, then you want to look at what is beneficial differently. Performance in most bicycle races correlates with FTP. So your training...base/build/whatever you want to call the cycles...should be based on raising your FTP (the power you can hold for ONE HOUR). The rides that provide the most benefit for doing this are Tempo, LT, and VO2.

Riding slow is good for getting warmed up, but you should be doing work that's going to build your aerobic engine, even in October/November. There is no proof that old-school, long, slow base rides have any place in training. In fact, you SHOULDN'T be doing them.

One hour is plenty of time to do a workout. Try warming up and holding your tempo power, 76-90% of FTP, for 50 minutes. Also try warming up and doing 2x20 minutes at 91-105% of your FTP. These workouts will provide a lot of benefits...more than just riding slowly for an 3 hours (that is if you define benefits from a racing perspective).

By the way, if your races are longer, miles should be increased later, before the event. Focus on increasing FTP first.

Thanks everyone for your replies. Eden and Bailsibub really touched on what I was wondering about. (The adaptations that happen within the body.) And yes, I race. For the first time I'm without a coach and trying to figure out how to make my own training plans. I've only been exposed to his training philosophy. And he prescribed tons of base miles in the winter off season. The way he always described it to me was that you had to have a lot of Base Miles or else you will not have the foundation needed to build upon when it's time to train for intensity & speed. Also that Base Training gives you overall fitness and endurance. When people speak of endurance, that just means having enough energy to finish the race right? My races are short. Crits take no more than 40mins and Road Races take no more than 1hr 20mins. So how long of a training ride do I need to have enough endurance to finish those races? Are there some of you that never do 3 hour base rides and are still able to race well? Thanks for your help!

-Ariel :)

Are there some of you that never do 3 hour base rides and are still able to race well?
I do 3-hour rides on weekends (harder rides, not 'base' rides), but that's because I don't have the opportunity to ride every day and want to load up before taking a day off. You also have to look at how much total training you are getting in. Especially in the lower race categories, I think you'll be able to race fine without the longer rides, but if you're only doing four 1-hr hard rides per week and the others are able to do four 3-hr sessions (with a proper mix of intensities), then I think their overall volume is going to be harder to beat.

If you don't have the time for longer rides, then I'd definitely up the intensity a little instead of sticking with base miles.

It seems that doing LSD training for the average parent/worker cyclist is not the best way to maximise your time. It's probably good for somebody new to cycling or picking up after a lay-off, but for somebody who's maintaining race fitness it may be better to work on your FTP, and that's done with threshold work and sweet spot training.

I'm no expert, but I am riding reasonably well on limited time ie around 8hrs/week. The bulk of my time over the past 4 weeks has been sweet spot work and that is paying dividends. I started threshold work this week and I'm looking forward to Saturday's group ride to see how well I go against my peers.

It seems accepted that your functional threshold power ie the power you can hold for an hour is the defining limit of your fitness. If you have a high FTP then it follows that efforts below it will tax you at only a limited rate ie your body can happily hold the lower effort for ages. And efforts above a high FTP do not stretch you too far past your limit.

I guess it's like a V8 holding 80mph, it's only just above tickover, whereas a 125cc would be revving its nuts off and be ready to explode. FTP is all about building a big aerobic engine, and the way to do that is work at or near threshold.

I'm finding it a level which is taxing but doesn't leave me wrecked, and that's good if I have to go to work (and bounce on the trampoline with the kids) as well.

If I was going to do 100-milers then I'd want to get in a couple of long rides just to toughen the rear end and get used to it, but from a fitness point of view, a good FTP will stand you in good stead.

Oh, and a power meter really helps in this!

It seems that doing LSD training for the average parent/worker cyclist is not the best way to maximise your time. It's probably good for somebody new to cycling or picking up after a lay-off, but for somebody who's maintaining race fitness it may be better to work on your FTP, and that's done with threshold work and sweet spot training..... It seems accepted that your functional threshold power ie the power you can hold for an hour is the defining limit of your fitness. If you have a high FTP then it follows that efforts below it will tax you at only a limited rate ie your body can happily hold the lower effort for ages. And efforts above a high FTP do not stretch you too far past your limit....+1 on this post. It's tough to even talk about this stuff these days since we use the same words to mean different things.

I'm doing a lot of Base riding this time of year. But it's not easy, and not even all that long. I'm riding SST and L4 work for an hour or two a day. Sometimes I'll add a few hours of Tempo on the weekend if the weather cooperates but no L2/L1 LSD on the schedule. It's still Base as far as I'm concerned but I'm defining that as building core aerobic fitness not trying to train my muscles to store glycogen or to preferentially burn fat. The key as grahamspringett said is to build your aerobic engine and from an efficient use of time and recovery standpoint that means SST/L4 work.

I raced some pretty darn long races this past season using this approach and didn't run out of steam or suffer in the late miles so I'm fully convinced that building FTP trumps LSD based endurance.

-Dave

+1 on this post. It's tough to even talk about this stuff these days since we use the same words to mean different things.

I'm doing a lot of Base riding this time of year. But it's not easy, and not even all that long. I'm riding SST and L4 work for an hour or two a day. Sometimes I'll add a few hours of Tempo on the weekend if the weather cooperates but no L2/L1 LSD on the schedule. It's still Base as far as I'm concerned but I'm defining that as building core aerobic fitness not trying to train my muscles to store glycogen or to preferentially burn fat. The key as grahamspringett said is to build your aerobic engine and from an efficient use of time and recovery standpoint that means SST/L4 work.

I raced some pretty darn long races this past season using this approach and didn't run out of steam or suffer in the late miles so I'm fully convinced that building FTP trumps LSD based endurance.

-Dave
Yep, I'll go along with that. I didn't do anything longer this time than 58km before my 160km "race" last weekend (should have been 141Km - got lost :D )
Having built a bigger engine enabled me to cruise at the back. Long training rides just tend to tire you out and result in less productive workouts on the trainer. If your setup is right and you have a good quality saddle that suits you, you shouldn't need to do long rides just to prevent you from becoming a rhinosorearse. Just my 2 yen's worth. Tyson

.... before my 160km "race" last weekend (should have been 141Km - got lost :D )...Forget the PM and KK trainer Sly, you need a good GPS unit. How about a handlebar mounted navigator, you know..."right turn in one hundred meters"..."you just missed your turn, go back", etc. It'd take more off your time than a few watts here or there :)

When I was a junior and a younger senior, I was told miles, miles, miles. Intervals were 'dangerous' and could overstress you and make you ill and so on and so forth.

Then I could never figure why my clubmates would kill me on rides and I would get dropped and they would place in races. I remember one guy used to close his front door, hop on the bike and then disappear in a cloud of dust, and I'd spend ages trying to catch him. Tsk tsk, I'd think, he's going too hard, he'll burn himself out.

There is a photo of him winning a race, arms aloft, while I'm at the side of the road having been dropped, got changed and waited to see him win.

Now, with all this talk of SST and threshold, it all comes clear. I just wasn't training hard enough. My mates were, and they'd trounce me.

So trying to convince me that long steady miles for a 40 or 50 mile road race (and handicap races here in Oz are short and hard) are what I need is I'm afraid a waste of time.

Train smart, train hard, ride fast.

Hmm, seemed to have posted twice. Sorry guys

...Now, with all this talk of SST and threshold, it all comes clear. I just wasn't training hard enough. My mates were, and they'd trounce me.....My experience exactly! Lots of early coaching on the dangers of overtraining had me chronically undertraining for years.

I've got a theory that all the over training fears come from working with aggressive athletes deep into the "no pain, no gain" school of thought. They probably do need to be warned about the dangers of overtraining right from the start. Same for those that don't feel they're getting a workout unless they're doing minute long make ya puke intervals and retching. These guys probably need to be tempered back quite a bit.

On the other hand I'm cautious, very literal and take advice from coaches very seriously. So when they told me to set limits based on speed or HR I followed their advice to a T and rode a ton of 15-17 mph rides for lots and lots of miles. Racing season with track races and crits gave me some pretty good jump and top end speed but I couldn't time trial to save my life and got dropped on long climbs regularly.

Looking back at my training diaries and race results it's real clear I never trained core aerobic fitness. I'd get some along the way, hard not to with a lot of time in the saddle but never enough and usually too late in the season. Even when things went right and I placed well in a race it was always a flash in the pan as I'd get dropped again the following weekend. Then there were those team mates that just always seemed fit and still managed a top 10 placing even on their off days. I just figured they were genetically gifted.

Last winter's SST and L4 work changed all that. I'm still no world beater but I'm consistently placing top 10 against open category masters and have several top 3 podium spots and GC placings this season including my first ever 40km time trial win. I even managed a top 3 and some top 10 placings on off days when I almost scrapped the race because I woke up feeling so crummy. I realized I'd become one of those guys who does all right even on the off days and the key was a solid aerobic base. Not tons of miles, just good steady efforts near FTP and a steadily increasing FTP througout the season.

Anyway, thanks for that post graham, I've been thinking similar thoughts all year and you put it real nicely. Train smart, train hard, ride fast.

My experience exactly! Lots of early coaching on the dangers of overtraining had me chronically undertraining for years.

I've got a theory that all the over training fears come from working with aggressive athletes deep into the "no pain, no gain" school of thought. They probably do need to be warned about the dangers of overtraining right from the start. Same for those that don't feel they're getting a workout unless they're doing minute long make ya puke intervals and retching. These guys probably need to be tempered back quite a bit.

On the other hand I'm cautious, very literal and take advice from coaches very seriously. So when they told me to set limits based on speed or HR I followed their advice to a T and rode a ton of 15-17 mph rides for lots and lots of miles. Racing season with track races and crits gave me some pretty good jump and top end speed but I couldn't time trial to save my life and got dropped on long climbs regularly.

Looking back at my training diaries and race results it's real clear I never trained core aerobic fitness. I'd get some along the way, hard not to with a lot of time in the saddle but never enough and usually too late in the season. Even when things went right and I placed well in a race it was always a flash in the pan as I'd get dropped again the following weekend. Then there were those team mates that just always seemed fit and still managed a top 10 placing even on their off days. I just figured they were genetically gifted.

Last winter's SST and L4 work changed all that. I'm still no world beater but I'm consistently placing top 10 against open category masters and have several top 3 podium spots and GC placings this season including my first ever 40km time trial win. I even managed a top 3 and some top 10 placings on off days when I almost scrapped the race because I woke up feeling so crummy. I realized I'd become one of those guys who does all right even on the off days and the key was a solid aerobic base. Not tons of miles, just good steady efforts near FTP and a steadily increasing FTP througout the season.

Anyway, thanks for that post graham, I've been thinking similar thoughts all year and you put it real nicely.Yeah, it seems like a lot of us had the same experiences with LSD BS. I heard things like, "Be careful don't ride too fast too soon. You'll blow out your capillaries...ruining all those long rides you did to get your aerobic fitness." So I would do long rides...4,5,6 hours. I'd lift (because they said that worked too) and do a month of tempo and month of LT then I'd do my first races at the beginning of April. It's no surprise that in a Pro/1/2 I'd get shot out the back like a cannonball about halfway through in the beginning of the season....

Oddly enough, it wasn't until I started commuting to work that I started to see that riding at Tempo and LT most of the year was doable. (and it wasn't an experiment...I was usually just late so I had to ride fast!) I also found out that my body and mind didn't get tired of riding that way and that I could do it over months...and even years! Oh yeah, and I could go a lot faster because of it. Can you picture a guy on a commuter bike trying to get to work on the bike trail and dropping roadies (not intentionally mind you) in the process?

And as a testament to short and intense rides (you'll just have to take my word for this one), last week I rode coast to coast across Korea in one day with my team(140 miles). And then I did it again to get back home the next day, riding really well (got to all the mountaintops first...well when my former pro buddy wasn't there to thrash me).

All of this was done with a solid schedule of trainer rides before work (mainly something like 5X12 min. at LT) every other day. So most of my workouts took about 90 minutes to do (with the rare 3-4 hour fast weekend group ride with the team when monsoon season permitted it). Granted it wasn't easy, and the joints were sore a couple days after that weekend. But I think this example really contrasts with the old idea that you have to go the distance(and beyond) in training to ride well.

To Ariel, and even guys new to training on here, listen to what daveryan, SLY, graham and I are getting at here. Give it a shot instead of the long LSD rides. You'll probably ride a lot better in most situations as a result.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of us had the same experiences with LSD BS. I heard things like, "Be careful don't ride too fast too soon. You'll blow out your capillaries...ruining all those long rides you did to get your aerobic fitness." So I would do long rides...4,5,6 hours. I'd lift (because they said that worked too) and do a month of tempo and month of LT then I'd do my first races at the beginning of April. It's no surprise that in a Pro/1/2 I'd get shot out the back like a cannonball about halfway through in the beginning of the season....

Oddly enough, it wasn't until I started commuting to work that I started to see that riding at Tempo and LT most of the year was doable. (and it wasn't an experiment...I was usually just late so I had to ride fast!) I also found out that my body and mind didn't get tired of riding that way and that I could do it over months...and even years! Oh yeah, and I could go a lot faster because of it. Can you picture a guy on a commuter bike trying to get to work on the bike trail and dropping roadies (not intentionally mind you) in the process?

And as a testament to short and intense rides (you'll just have to take my word for this one), last week I rode coast to coast across Korea in one day with my team(140 miles). And then I did it again to get back home the next day, riding really well (got to all the mountaintops first...well when my former pro buddy wasn't there to thrash me).

All of this was done with a solid schedule of trainer rides before work (mainly something like 5X12 min. at LT) every other day. So most of my workouts took about 90 minutes to do (with the rare 3-4 hour fast weekend group ride with the team when monsoon season permitted it). Granted it wasn't easy, and the joints were sore a couple days after that weekend. But I think this example really contrasts with the old idea that you have to go the distance(and beyond) in training to ride well.

To Eden, and even guys new to training on here, listen to what daveryan, SLY, graham and I are getting at here. Give it a shot instead of the long LSD rides. You'll probably ride a lot better in most situations as a result.
5x12min ????:( Tyson

To Eden, and even guys new to training on here, listen to what daveryan, SLY, graham and I are getting at here. Give it a shot instead of the long LSD rides. You'll probably ride a lot better in most situations as a result.

Hey I neither advocated or discouraged LSD rides, I only explained the reasoning behind doing them and - the original question was will a short harder ride do the same things as a longer slower ride and I still think the answer to that is no. If you're really looking for the adaptations that LSD rides give you then doing faster shorter rides probably isn't going to do it. I'll let you all debate whether or not you really NEED that or not. I'm not a coach and I'm not going to give that kind of advice. My personal riding this winter will have some longer rides in it, (and I'll have some long races too - my favorite stage race has both an 80 mile and a 100 mile stage), but it will also have intensity too. I'll only be avoiding the very highest level. And anyhoo I still quite enjoy a long bike ride at times so its no skin off my nose to do a good long ride if they day is nice, whether or not I'm getting a whole lot more fitness out of it - a long as I'm not making myself too tired there's no harm in it.

Hey I neither advocated or discouraged LSD rides, I only explained the reasoning behind doing them and - the original question was will a short harder ride do the same things as a longer slower ride and I still think the answer to that is no. If you're really looking for the adaptations that LSD rides give you then doing faster shorter rides probably isn't going to do it. I'll let you all debate whether or not you really NEED that or not. I'm not a coach and I'm not going to give that kind of advice. My personal riding this winter will have some longer rides in it, (and I'll have some long races too - my favorite stage race has both an 80 mile and a 100 mile stage), but it will also have intensity too. I'll only be avoiding the very highest level. And anyhoo I still quite enjoy a long bike ride at times so its no skin off my nose to do a good long ride if they day is nice, whether or not I'm getting a whole lot more fitness out of it - a long as I'm not making myself too tired there's no harm in it.
Oh sorry Eden, I meant to say Ariel. I think I started bonking at the end of that post!! ha ha I'll edit it out.

And Sly, why the sad face?