American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

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Personally I don't accept that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ, but who lives a good life, would be condemned to hell.Dubya does not share your view. I cannot remember if I read it or it was on a Frontline (A U.S. investigative news program) report, but Dubya and his mother were arguing this exact point. Bush felt that you had to accept Jesus in order to get into heaven while his mother expressed your view. They contacted the preacher Billy Grahamn to settle the issue, and he supported Dubya's mother's position. At which point Dubya responded with something akin to, "I still don't accept that."

I don't accept that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ, but who lives a good life, would be condemned to hell.
To paraphrase, if someone leads a good life and has a belief in God, in good conscience, that person enjoys God's favour.

Does that mean Christ was crucified in vain?

No.

Dubya does not share your view. I cannot remember if I read it or it was on a Frontline (A U.S. investigative news program) report, but Dubya and his mother were arguing this exact point. Bush felt that you had to accept Jesus in order to get into heaven while his mother expressed you view. They contacted the preacher Billy Grahamn to settle the issue, and he supported Dubya's mother's position. At which point Dubya responded with something akin to, "I still don't accept that."

So he disagreed with Billy Graham!
He just can't help himself, can he?

No.
Since you claim to a practicing Catholic, how does your belief reconcile with John 14:6? (Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.)

Since you claim to a practicing Catholic, how does your belief reconcile with John 14:6? (Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.)

You should read all of John Chapter 14 at your next Evangelical meeting.

Your selective quote 14:6 is contradicted by verses 14:1 to 14:5.

How does your belief reconcile that?

You should read all of John Chapter 14 at your next Evangelical meeting.

Your selective quote 14:6 is contradicted by verses 14:1 to 14:5.

How does your belief reconcile that?
Nice try. Good attempt at the insult. I didn't realize I was a evangelical Catholic.

So what your telling us is that Jesus contradicted himself within 6 biblical verses. How does the Son of God manage to do that? How does your belief reconcile that?

This is becoming in danger of a chapter and verse war between you two guys. I may be of some help as I once had some involvement in the evangelical side of Christianity Colorado Rider may be involved in but, on the other hand, both my girlfriends were strong Catholics (one being Spanish).
At any rate, I understand what Colorado Rider is driving at. For evangelical Christians, there is a strong conviction a believer must be "born again" in order to be saved which means a belief in resurrection, the Trinity, salvation via grace and the witness of faith. C R is focused on acts of the apostles and St John, I guess (the account of how a Christian should be).
I think we all clearly differ. My take is the verse that speaks of "preaching the gospel" may have been intended to contain a different message than Orthodox Christians believe. There were many Gnostic scriptures that represent Jesus's teaching as more metaphysical than Orthodoxy so I'm not so sure the term "gospel" contains such a simple message.
What I find impossible to believe is my salvation or damnation depends upon whether or not I accept an event that happened 2000 years ago but I never witnessed it myself. It isn't enough for me for St Peter and John to pass on an account of an event I never saw and tell me to believe or be damned, as it were.
I believe human beings were intended to question, doubt, analyse and even be cynical.
If I believe anything, I'm now more inclined towards re-incarnation and have this basic fear if I don't live a decent life I could possibly come back as a slug.


You should read all of John Chapter 14 at your next Evangelical meeting.

Your selective quote 14:6 is contradicted by verses 14:1 to 14:5.

How does your belief reconcile that?

For evangelical Christians, there is a strong conviction a believer must be "born again" in order to be saved which means a belief in resurrection, the Trinity, salvation via grace and the witness of faith. C R is focused on acts of the apostles and St John, I guess (the account of how a Christian should be).


This is the problem with literal interpretations of the kind made by fundamentalists/evangelicalists.

John Chapter 14 verse 6 does suggests that the only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ.
Verse 2 (of Chapter 14), which prefaces verse 6, states "in my Fathers house, there are many mansions".
Within four verses (2-6) of Chapter 14, we have a contradiction.

On the wider question - if somene never heard of Jesus Christ - is he to be denied salvation?
Is all of humanity that existed before Jesus Christ was born - are to be denied salvation too?
I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that salvation be denied in either case.

This is becoming in danger of a chapter and verse war between you two guys. I may be of some help as I once had some involvement in the evangelical side of Christianity Colorado Rider may be involved in but, on the other hand, both my girlfriends were strong Catholics (one being Spanish).
At any rate, I understand what Colorado Rider is driving at. For evangelical Christians, there is a strong conviction a believer must be "born again" in order to be saved which means a belief in resurrection, the Trinity, salvation via grace and the witness of faith. C R is focused on acts of the apostles and St John, I guess (the account of how a Christian should be).
I think we all clearly differ. My take is the verse that speaks of "preaching the gospel" may have been intended to contain a different message than Orthodox Christians believe. There were many Gnostic scriptures that represent Jesus's teaching as more metaphysical than Orthodoxy so I'm not so sure the term "gospel" contains such a simple message.
What I find impossible to believe is my salvation or damnation depends upon whether or not I accept an event that happened 2000 years ago but I never witnessed it myself. It isn't enough for me for St Peter and John to pass on an account of an event I never saw and tell me to believe or be damned, as it were.
I believe human beings were intended to question, doubt, analyse and even be cynical.
If I believe anything, I'm now more inclined towards re-incarnation and have this basic fear if I don't live a decent life I could possibly come back as a slug.
So if I believe that Christ is the saviour and accepting Him allows one into the heaven, that makes me an evangelical? What I disagree with Limerickman is that there are other ways into heaven other than Christ. Now I will give a caveat here. Those that have truly never heard of Christ (which Limerickman did mention) and live a righteous life get to go to heaven. Children get in as well. Those that have heard of Christ but do not accept him cannot get into heaven on good works alone. Otherwise Christ was crucified in vain.

That said I also believe religion is a personal matter. I don't really care whether you believe or not. I don't have the will to try and convert anyone.
That alone excludes me from being an evangelical. Evangelicals go out and try to convert people as if God is keeping count of the number of people converted. My problem with evangelicals is that they convert people and move on. They are not there to help someone face the challenges of living their daily life according to biblical principles.

Is all of humanity that existed before Jesus Christ was born - are to be denied salvation too?
Those that died and believed in God before Christ were waiting for Christ outside the gates of hell. When Christ was crucified he descended into Hell to retrieve those that believed and brought them into salvation.

What I disagree with Limerickman is that there are other ways into heaven other than Christ.
A god who gives his creations rational thought and then punishes them for using it to make their decisions based on evidence and facts instead of myth and faith is not much of a god.

A god who gives his creations rational thought and then punishes them for using it to make their decisions based on evidence and facts instead of myth and faith is not much of a god.
It's called freewill.

Those that died and believed in God before Christ were waiting for Christ outside the gates of hell. When Christ was crucified he descended into Hell to retrieve those that believed and brought them into salvation.

So Moses and Elijah and all the other prophets of the Old Testament were in hell - after they died, despite their belief in God?
And all of humanity who lived and died - but who believed in God - were in hell too?

Preposterous.

So Moses and Elijah and all the other prophets of the Old Testament were in hell - after they died, despite their belief in God?
And all of humanity who lived and died - but who believed in God - were in hell too?

Preposterous.
Then why did Christ descend into hell?

Then why did Christ descend into hell?

He didn't descend in to hell for the reasons that you gave.

He didn't descend in to hell for the reasons that you gave.
Then please enlighten us.

Then please enlighten us.

If you're Catholic - as you claim - you shouldn't need enlightenment.

If you're Catholic - as you claim - you shouldn't need enlightenment.
Maybe you're not a Catholic? Otherwise this should be etched into your brain.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH


SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD

ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"

631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477


Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 (javascript:openWindow('cr/633.htm');) Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 (javascript:openWindow('cr/634.htm');) "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488


IN BRIEF

636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14). 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.

There are many problems that arise. I suspect the differences between Lim and Colorado Rider are essentially the differences that divided Christians for centuries, which is why we have Anglicans, Protestants, Catholics, Davidians e.t.c.
I think Lim gives a reasonable analysis of his views and I can also see C.R.'s views as well.
What I do know is Jesus told his students to preach the Gospel but where I object is the gap between the Council Of Nicea and Jesus's death. We know Christians were quite diverse in what they believed in the times of, say, Nero. There was originally no Orthodoxy and check out the rift between Peter (Jewish Law Christianity) and Paul of Tarsus who was maybe closer to Colorado Rider's views i.e. you had to be "saved".
Now the Gnostics believe Jesus had a far deeper message than simply believe in the resurrection, Jesus was the son of God and died for your sins e.t.c. They believed Jesus had a number of "more initiated" students who could interpret the mystical messages of such Gospels of Mary or Thomas.
Both Christianity, Judaism and Islam have their Gnostic variants and we simply don't know these alternative views are wrong.
Last point, Hell. Christianity does teach I will go to blazes, so to speak (along with Dave Mc and others). Seeing as I don't believe the message, the disciples would have wiped the dust off their shoes and gone elsewhere,seeing as my response would have been I didn't see the resurrection and don't have sufficient evidence. Christians believe you will be tormented for eternity for rejecting the Gospel.



A god who gives his creations rational thought and then punishes them for using it to make their decisions based on evidence and facts instead of myth and faith is not much of a god.

Maybe you're not a Catholic? Otherwise this should be etched into your brain.

.

The Nicene Creed, used in the Roman Catholic Mass, doesn't refer anywhere to Jesus descending in to Hell.
The Creed states that He was crucified, died and was buried and that He rose again on the third day.

If you attend Mass and recited the Creed - you'd know this.


We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.