My first Power Tap Ride!!! Some questions.

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Well between the interest of "it's killing me" thread and great posts on this forum I had to bite the bullet and buy a Power Tap Pro.

Unfortunately I had to get one for my road bike because they dont make the hub with disk breaks for my MTB. Anyways I figured the road was a good place to do the unofficial "RapDaddyo's SuperTerrific L4 Plans" and the dirt would be where I would see the results.

So I had to go out and figure out what my FTP is. After a 20 min warmup and a few sprints I do my 20 min TT effort ride up a slight incline and am happy to watch the numbers splash about. Lots of fun but I notice something strange... when I stand on the pedals when slowly cresting a hill or starting from stopped my wattage is in the mid 200s. I am putting all of my 210 lbs on the pedals and its the same as when I was cruising before. strange.

But theres more....

On my way back down the hill and into more rolling sections that I usually relax and on enjoy the 30+ mph ride I noticed something interesting...
It was much easier to get big power numbers with the same "perceived effort" when I was going faster. When didn't pedal I got the big fat 0, but with just a few turns of the cranks I was easily over 300 watts, then it would glide back to zero. Then for fun I would stand and really give it a spin and I was breaking 400 watts. This was WAY less effort than when I was standing on the slow climb.

Getting to work I discussed this with some programmers who busted out the equations: Power = Force * Velocity. (i.e. for the same force your power will be greater if you are going faster).

Some questions come to mind:

1. If I 'cherry pick' my best numbers for my rides, I will likely get best results when Im going a faster velocity for my entire MMP.

2. I can "cheat" my numbers by doing sprints and intervals on slight declines.

3. a Watt is not a Watt is not a Watt. (Watts can only be compared to Watts at similar wheel velocities.)

4. Depending on what my indoor trainer resistance is set at, my PM will think its going at a different speed than I might see on the road and it could explain why some people have a hard time getting the same results on their trainer L4 workouts than on the road. (i.e. high resistance trainers would have a lower wheel speed thus lower Wattage numbers for intervals)

Am I wrong? Has anyone noticed this on their rides?

Tony

1. If I 'cherry pick' my best numbers for my rides, I will likely get best results when Im going a faster velocity for my entire MMP.
First of all, the velocity in power=force*velocity is related to cadence, not bike speed.

It's unlikely you'll produce significantly better numbers at higher speed vs. lower speed. Most notice the opposite, or roughly equal. The reason your quick efforts up hill didn't equal big power numbers is because you were already working hard up the hill. The sprints on the downhills were from a more rested state.



2. I can "cheat" my numbers by doing sprints and intervals on slight declines.
Again, unlikely for most intervals, but you will want to do sprints from a rested state (such as the bottom of a downhill).

Well between the interest of "it's killing me" thread and great posts on this forum I had to bite the bullet and buy a Power Tap Pro.

Unfortunately I had to get one for my road bike because they dont make the hub with disk breaks for my MTB. Anyways I figured the road was a good place to do the unofficial "RapDaddyo's SuperTerrific L4 Plans" and the dirt would be where I would see the results.

So I had to go out and figure out what my FTP is.

TonyTony,

Did you download yet?

Are you going to post some numbers?

Jim

Ok, well if the velocity is in fact cadence than that sets my mind at ease a bit. I am going to post numbers now but I didn't at first because I was so preoccupied by the velocity thing. I still don't understand why I was hitting the bigger numbers on the downhill so easily, perhaps I was more warmed up. ( I believe and respect whoawhoa but it doesn't "feel" like thats whats was happening.)

Ok, so below is the image of power distribution and MMP. From the "Training and Racing..." book it says FTP "might" be where the power drops off, but since my Peak 20 min was 251 I think the 270-280 bin size was over filled from all the "sprint testing" I was doing coming downhill.

My HR stayed in the 150-155 range and I can usually ride quite a while in 160-165 range so I suspect the FTP of 251 will raise a bit next week. (I'm still recovering from a brutal 6 Hours of OC MTB race on Saturday where I did horribly due to leg cramps)

Duration 1:22
Norm Power 229
VI 1.23
Pmax 731
Pave 186

There should be an attachment below, Ive never done this here before.

Ok, so below is the image of power distribution and MMP. From the "Training and Racing..." book it says FTP "might" be where the power drops offWelcome to the world of training with power!

The Power distribution chart will become more valuable as you continue to put in ride files and view it from your athlete home page (instead of an individual ride). I personally have it setup to show my power for the last 28 days.

P.S. if you want to post a ride file on this forum, zip the file using a compression program and then upload it. We will know what to do with it from there. :)

Duration 1:22
Norm Power 229
VI 1.23
Pmax 731
Pave 186
Pretty darn good. What was your peak 60min NP?

Welcome to the world of training with power!

P.S. if you want to post a ride file on this forum, zip the file using a compression program and then upload it. We will know what to do with it from there. :)Thanks! Ya I'll do that once I have a few more rides under my belt and start really looking for where to set my levels.

RD says "setting your FTP levels and L4 workouts are somewhat self correcting because you find out pretty soon if your target is too high" (not an exact quote)

Also, next Saturday is going to be my first ever group road ride with a local bike shop here. I'm pretty excited to see what thats like. There is no real equivalent in MTBing to riding in a roadie group. MTB is more like a rally race.

To think all this road biking and power tapping was an effort to improve my times on the dirt. Pretty crazy really, but I love number crunching and I cant get this data on the (dirt) mountain.


RD!! Hey I just noticed your reply as I was typing this...
My Peak 60min was 203 W (239W Normalized Peak 60min), but since it was a 1 hr and 22 min ride that was pretty much ALL of the ride.

The sad part always comes when I divide by my weight. At 207lbs (94 kg) its very hard to get a W/kg much above "Untrained" on the Power Profile. Where did they find these incredibly fit "Untrained" people anyways?

My Peak 60min was 203 W (239W Normalized Peak 60min), but since it was a 1 hr and 22 min ride that was pretty much ALL of the ride.You might want to start off doing your L4s at 240W. If it's too low, you'll soon find out because they will be too easy. It's unlikely that it's too high if your 60NP was 239W.

The sad part always comes when I divide by my weight. At 207lbs (94 kg) its very hard to get a W/kg much above "Untrained" on the Power Profile. Where did they find these incredibly fit "Untrained" people anyways?Yes, weight is absolutely huge. One of the greatest incentives to lose weight is to calculate one's w/kg ratio and then do some number crunching to see what it would be if we lose xx pounds. I'm on that plan at the moment and having some success. I finally figured out a plan that works for me -- I eat something every 2 hours from 6AM to 10PM, small amounts (max 150-300 cals). But, I'm never hungry because I'm eating so frequently and I get instant feedback if I "bust" the plan (either by eating "early" or by eating too much). It's working, maybe it just fits with my personality.

I eat something every 2 hours from 6AM to 10PM, small amounts (max 150-300 cals). But, I'm never hungry because I'm eating so frequently and I get instant feedback if I "bust" the plan I don't know if you did this on purpose BUT it seems like you are applying the concept of your L4 training program to Caloric Intake:

If you visualize your calorie input like a power graph (where Calories are power), and your Hunger Threshold (HT) is the point where you feel full. You are trying to maintain a Normalized Average Calorie value just above the HT (I say Normalized because I assume there is a metabolic response to food intake similar to the muscle's response to stimuli) but below the point your body will stop losing weight (adapting).

A.K.A. "The Sweet Spot". pun intended!

I suspect a PMC could be devised that charts Chronic Calorie Intake, Acute Calorie Intake, and one could figure out what your HT would be.
So if you've been eating alot regularly and you start eating less you will be very hungry (a high HT) but if you slowly cut back on the calories for a while you can reduce the amount of calories you need to feel full. It might actually be graphable and computable.

I don't know if you did this on purpose BUT it seems like you are applying the concept of your L4 training program to Caloric Intake:

If you visualize your calorie input like a power graph (where Calories are power), and your Hunger Threshold (HT) is the point where you feel full. You are trying to maintain a Normalized Average Calorie value just above the HT (I say Normalized because I assume there is a metabolic response to food intake similar to the muscle's response to stimuli) but below the point your body will stop losing weight (adapting).

A.K.A. "The Sweet Spot". pun intended!

I suspect a PMC could be devised that charts Chronic Calorie Intake, Acute Calorie Intake, and one could figure out what your HT would be.
So if you've been eating alot regularly and you start eating less you will be very hungry (a high HT) but if you slowly cut back on the calories for a while you can reduce the amount of calories you need to feel full. It might actually be graphable and computable.LOL. No, I have just been frustrated with the process of losing weight. In my case, it's not a question of knowing how much to eat or what to eat. It's very easy to figure that out. It comes down to behavior modification, my behavior. To do that successfully requires some understanding of current behavior patterns and why I do what I do. What I figured out for myself is that if I have less than 2 hours until I get to eat something (anything) I can use that to defer or avoid eating. I just tell myself, "Hey, it's only an hour (or 1/2 hour or whatever) until you get to eat something. That's not long." I find it easier to discipline myself than if I had to tell myself to wait 4-5 hours. So, somehow this works for me but it was conceived with no more complex thinking than to just divide what I eat every day into a bunch of small meals closely spaced. I like the constant positive reinforcement. Nine times a day I get to say, "Good job, you're on plan.":D