Floyd Landis Vindicated!

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Yeah, I used to work for them.

And your examples of this 100 percent bias would be?

Would it be, "It's just common knowledge, dude. Come on!"

And the war? What a mess. And this coming from a someone who actually served on the ground in the middle east (82nd AB, 3rd Ranger Bat., 46Q attached -- JTF Somalia) I'm sure my boys are enjoying themselves over there, sleeping on the ground, eating MREs, watching their buddys get their arms and legs blown off and killed, rotating in for up to 18 months and then rotating back out for six then back for 12. It's great watching your kids grow up via video tape.

Boys who never had the balls to go down to the recruiter station and sign up are always the biggest hawks. Our veep is the perfect example. I signed up because I needed a fucking job, not because I was a hero or patriotic. There were a few whack jobs who were the exception, but most everyone I served with fit into that category.

I don't suppose you served in the military, but you probably wish you had. Guys like you don't even make it past basic, much less jump school, air assult school, AIT... Never met a rich kid in the military. Not enlisted anyway.

Don't get me started on that goddamn war.The most credible opinions on (and often the most ardent opposition to) war,come from the young men who have had to fight them,who have seen their comrades killed and mutilated...and who have had to kill and mutilate other young men ,in essence,no different to them.

I never worked in a newsroom...but I was a bartender where journalists hung out. They are not men of morality. They are men of opinion. Most people around them saw the journalists as pariahs.... {And excessivly cheap ] The world of journalistic morality can be summed up with the following two words.....Jason Blair.Two words sum up Republican politicians... Rob Nay. But being a journalist myself, I know better than to generalize about groups of people. Journalist have opinions, no doubt. That's not the problem. If it seeps into their work, then there's a problem.

...So why did the NYT's run his story. They knew by using the tie-in to Armstrong the story would play. And it has.What? Really? No.

Armstrong is a pubic figure. In fact, he's gone out of his way to make sure that he is a public figure by way of the media. I heard the same reasoning ref. Cheney getting loaded (literally) and nearly blowing the head off his friend on a hunting trip. How could one say it was not news? He's the vice-fucking-president. Armstrong: he won the Tour seven times. It's news. These guys live and die by the media.

Frankie is using the media the same way Lance does, same way Lemond does. The problem with the media is, they seek truth because the people who rely on them and whom they rely on seek the truth. The truth has a very funny way of surfacing despite people's best efforts to keep it down. We'll find out sooner or later whose making bs up and when we do, we can thank the media.

There is a principle of logical thought that assumes that the most logical and probable explanation to an event is the most likely possible explanation.



Thus, in considering the Landis affair we are faced with 2 possible explanations:



1) An unknown individual working in the testing lab deliberately contaminated Floyd’s urine sample, possibly due to French unhappiness at an American winning their national race again. (Let’s not go into the actual physical difficulties of effectively doctoring a urine sample to simulate a positive test at this stage)

2) An ambitious professional athlete on a team sullied by several high profile drug scandals, in a sport widely held to be rife with drug abuse, takes stimulant to recover from a bad day to produce a performance widely heralded as “unbelievable” in order to win the most prestigious and gruelling endurance competition in cycling sport.





I know which one I think is more likely, but then I don’t live in a country where one in five people believe they’ve been abducted by Aliens….

There is a principle of logical thought that assumes that the most logical and probable explanation to an event is the most likely possible explanation.



Thus, in considering the Landis affair we are faced with 2 possible explanations:



1) An unknown individual working in the testing lab deliberately contaminated Floyd’s urine sample, possibly due to French unhappiness at an American winning their national race again. (Let’s not go into the actual physical difficulties of effectively doctoring a urine sample to simulate a positive test at this stage)

2) An ambitious professional athlete on a team sullied by several high profile drug scandals, in a sport widely held to be rife with drug abuse, takes stimulant to recover from a bad day to produce a performance widely heralded as “unbelievable” in order to win the most prestigious and gruelling endurance competition in cycling sport.





I know which one I think is more likely, but then I don’t live in a country where one in five people believe they’ve been abducted by Aliens….



I have always indicated that regardless of what the final outcome is the Landis victory will be forever tainted. Say what you will but I am pretty sure that regardless of his guilt or innocence he will be exonerated of the charges and keep his title. If, as many on this forum believe, he doped than the testing procedures suck! The labs don't have a grasp on transit and indentification of samples taken. If he didn't dope than I feel very sorry for him because he has lost fans, followers and professional credibility due to a gross mistake in the testing procedure. Those who are confused need to read the details on this case stating that only one in four tests of the "A" sample yielded a positive when testing for exogenous testosterone. And it is believed that this was the result of poor testing procedure and violations of lab protocol. They also can't seemed to be sure that the tested "B" sample even belonged to Lanids. If he is guilty than we will never truly know because the Lab work is soooo sloppy. If innocent we will never truly know either but it would appear to me that "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit" . Maybe his legal team will not need the "Chewbacca Defense" as it appears that there is no definitive proof of his guilt and where I come from a man is innocent until proven guilty!!!

I have always indicated that regardless of what the final outcome is the Landis victory will be forever tainted. Say what you will but I am pretty sure that regardless of his guilt or innocence he will be exonerated of the charges and keep his title. If, as many on this forum believe, he doped than the testing procedures suck! The labs don't have a grasp on transit and indentification of samples taken. If he didn't dope than I feel very sorry for him because he has lost fans, followers and professional credibility due to a gross mistake in the testing procedure. Those who are confused need to read the details on this case stating that only one in four tests of the "A" sample yielded a positive when testing for exogenous testosterone. And it is believed that this was the result of poor testing procedure and violations of lab protocol. They also can't seemed to be sure that the tested "B" sample even belonged to Lanids. If he is guilty than we will never truly know because the Lab work is soooo sloppy. If innocent we will never truly know either but it would appear to me that "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit" . Maybe his legal team will not need the "Chewbacca Defense" as it appears that there is no definitive proof of his guilt and where I come from a man is innocent until proven guilty!!!Do you have any sources for this stuff,other than Landis's lawyer?
His lawyer is hardly objective on the issue.

Yes your estimates are geneorous regarding American cycling enthusiasts! Probably closer to 2 or 3% of the American populous will remember Floyds Name by Christmas. It will be "Oh isn't he that guy you know the one who used steriods to win in that Europian race thingy. You know the ride around Paris or something like that...."It is sad and this is why i believe the eurpoians are sooooo pissed when Americans win the Tdf. Oh well, I still hope he is innocent and believe for the sake of the sport on a whole bunch of levels.
Being from the states and living in Spain is quite an experience. It's very strange for me to meet all the cycling fans that are not actually cyclists...in the US, 99.5+% of cycling fans are or were cyclists. Here, it's probably joint fourth in popularity with basketball. How many basketball fans are there in the US that don't play basketball? Tons. It's very strange to see, but it is very refreshing to discuss doping practices in the peloton with someone who actually knows what they're talking about...not the guy eating a donut at the water cooler saying "oh, he's got to be guilty...he beat Lance Armstrong!"

have you guys checked out Trust But Verify (http://trustbut.blogspot.com) blog it has links and explainations to a lot of science...

This is a really good article about the science provided by someone other than floyds lawyer

Two CIR False Posititves (http://hea-www.harvard.edu/%7Efine/opinions/testosterone_again.html) may be in the WADA study that "validated" the test, according a look at the data by Tom Fine. The study had 25 subjects, and looking closely at the data plots, two examples that match the values reported for Landis are seen, a false positive rate by subject of 8%.

have you guys checked out Trust But Verify (http://trustbut.blogspot.com) blog it has links and explainations to a lot of science...

This is a really good article about the science provided by someone other than floyds lawyer

Two CIR False Posititves (http://hea-www.harvard.edu/%7Efine/opinions/testosterone_again.html) may be in the WADA study that "validated" the test, according a look at the data by Tom Fine. The study had 25 subjects, and looking closely at the data plots, two examples that match the values reported for Landis are seen, a false positive rate by subject of 8%.
Excellent article......

Being from the states and living in Spain is quite an experience. It's very strange for me to meet all the cycling fans that are not actually cyclists...in the US, 99.5+% of cycling fans are or were cyclists. Here, it's probably joint fourth in popularity with basketball. How many basketball fans are there in the US that don't play basketball? Tons. It's very strange to see, but it is very refreshing to discuss doping practices in the peloton with someone who actually knows what they're talking about...not the guy eating a donut at the water cooler saying "oh, he's got to be guilty...he beat Lance Armstrong!"Amen!! I am quite envious of you though! Admittedly I am a fan of cycling because I have become addicted to the sport. Wouldn't it be awesome if a 1/4 of the US was into cycling and also rode themselves! There would be many more in shape Americans! Oh well it is a nice dream!

Amen!! I am quite envious of you though! Admittedly I am a fan of cycling because I have become addicted to the sport. Wouldn't it be awesome if a 1/4 of the US was into cycling and also rode themselves! There would be many more in shape Americans! Oh well it is a nice dream!
It is a nice dream. I would love to see Americans in the kind of shape, or at least lack of obesity, that the Spaniards have acheived. I would credit a lot of it where I am to the giant 8-square-mile park smack in the middle of Madrid, where there are cement and dirt trails galore. It's a very nice place, and always very busy...I wonder what gives in the US? People here eat whatever they want; they just excercise later.

End of hijack.

fuck...can you say that in here. well anyway USADA didn't go for it...probably because if they did then WADA and UCI would have been in a real pickle. My faith has wavered a bit... lets see their scientific, fact based defense and let the heads roll {whoever's heads they may be at this point}

I'm gonna go with innocent...maybe it'll piss some people off.

This from the NY Times for those of you without accounts


Landis Vows Spirited Fight as Drug Case Moves Ahead

By JULIET MACUR (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/juliet_macur/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
The case against Floyd Landis (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/floyd_landis/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the winner of this year’s Tour de France, moved forward this week when antidoping officials formally charged him with using performance-enhancing drugs during the race.

Landis, 30, tested positive for synthetic testosterone at the Tour in July, and he could be suspended from cycling for two years and stripped of his title. He would be the first winner in the Tour’s 103-year history to be disqualified because of a doping offense. In that event, the runner-up, Oscar Pereiro of Spain, would be named the champion.

Landis received a letter this week from the United States Anti-Doping Agency (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/united_states_anti-doping_agency/index.html?inline=nyt-org) explaining that disciplinary procedures would be initiated against him, according to his lawyer, Howard Jacobs. A recommendation from the agency’s review board was attached to the letter, saying there was sufficient evidence of a doping violation.

“We expected this to happen,” Jacobs said yesterday in a telephone interview. “The review board is basically a rubber stamp. They are not deciding the case. They are just looking at whether there is a case, and it’s exceedingly rare for them to dismiss one.”

Jacobs said Landis would appeal the charge and that the defense would be multifaceted. He said they would challenge the accuracy and validity of the urine tests and the testing procedures.

The next step, a hearing before a three-person arbitration panel, will probably not take place before January. Landis has said he will ask for that hearing to be made public. If he loses the appeal, he could take the case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. The court’s decision would be final.

Travis Tygart, general counsel for the antidoping agency, did not return telephone calls seeking comment. He typically does not discuss pending cases.

Michael Henson, a spokesman for Landis, said Landis was unavailable to comment.

“I think there is a real focus to Floyd right now, and that focus is in two places,” Henson said. “One is the hip surgery coming up. The other is bringing the strongest case possible to arbitration.”

Surgery on Landis’s ailing hip is scheduled for Wednesday. His doctor, Brent Kay, said the chances that Landis could return to top-level cycling were good.

Still, Landis’s future in cycling is in limbo at a time when the sport is in chaos because of drug-related scandals.

On the eve of the Tour, nine riders, including three favorites, were disqualified for being implicated, or for their teams’ being implicated, in a doping ring in Spain. Nearly 60 athletes and coaches in the sport have been linked to that drug ring, including the 2004 Olympic gold medalist Tyler Hamilton.

Hamilton’s file from the Spanish doping investigation was referred to the antidoping agency this month, according to USA Cycling, the sport’s governing body in the United States.

Hamilton and Landis are two of three former lieutenants of the seven-time Tour winner Lance Armstrong (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/lance_armstrong/index.html?inline=nyt-per) to test positive for performance-enhancing drugs after setting out on their own careers as lead riders.

Earlier this month, two of Armstrong’s teammates from the 1999 Tour also confessed that they used the banned endurance-booster EPO for that race, both saying they felt pressure to use performance-enhancing drugs to make the team. EPO, or erythropoietin, is a synthetic hormone used to improve stamina by increasing the body’s production of oxygen-rich red blood cells.

In an interview with The New York Times, Armstrong said the failed drug tests of his former teammates had nothing to do with him. Armstrong has repeatedly denied using performing-enhancing substances.

As for Landis, Armstrong said he thought he was innocent and that he had kept in touch with him to show his support.

“I don’t think he did it,” Armstrong said. “To me, it doesn’t make sense, the way he was tested and the number of times he was tested.”

Armstrong also said he did not trust the French national antidoping lab, which conducted the drug tests for the Tour, including those on Landis’s urine samples. “I hope he gets off,” Armstrong said.

Landis, the third American to win the Tour, submitted a urine sample after Stage 17 of the race, the day he rode solo through the Alps en route to his remarkable victory.

Three days after he won the Tour, he was notified that his urine sample tested positive for a high ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone, as well as for synthetic testosterone. His ratio was 11 to 1, well above the accepted limit of 4 to 1. Most men have a ratio of 1 to 1 or 2 to 1. The next week, Landis learned that his backup tests confirmed the initial result.

Landis, who was in Europe last week to watch the Spanish Vuelta, said he would fight to clear his name.

“The Tour’s doping tests are full of irregularities,” he told the Spanish daily sports newspaper Marca. “I’m innocent and I think my lawyers are going to be able to prove it, though they’ve had lots of difficulties gathering information.”

He said he was at the Vuelta to support his former teammates on Phonak. The team, plagued with doping scandals, disbanded shortly after Landis tested positive. The owner could not find a buyer for it.Floyd and I share the same birthday...

Floyd and I share the same birthday...
I knew it.The beard was a dead giveaway. So you're landis's invisible twin then?

There is a third possibility, if one is into the 'landis was framed' school of thought. I doubt he was framed, but it's fun to think about.

If we go with the theory that he was set up - ask yourself, who stood to gain the most from this? It would probably have to be a group, not an individual - too hard to pull it off, otherwise.

The French are the last people on earth to set up the TDF winner for a doping charge. They were probably hurt worse than anyone by this - a lot of people are disgusted with the whole affair, and both broadcast revenues and tourist expenditures will be down next year.

Arguably, WADA might have gained a bit more power, although that doesn't seem to be happening, and Pound has been a bit more subdued about both Puerto and the Landis affair. In fact, WADA isn't looking too good right now, as they were too busy testing old Tour samples to worry about a major blood doping ring. Still haven't said too much about it, and I don't recall hearing about WADA instituting tests for self blood transfusions - though tests for that do exist.

The only group that unquestionably stood to gain from this is... the UCI. They were locked in a battle with the GT organizers, of whom ASO is the most prominent, over ProTour integration of the GT's. And the battle wasn't going well - the GT's were talking about putting together their own series. That talk is now dead, and with ASO weakened by a major scandal, they're in no position to dictate terms to the UCI, or start their own pro series.

So there you have it - the conspiracy theory du jour. The UCI set Floyd up.

There is a principle of logical thought that assumes that the most logical and probable explanation to an event is the most likely possible explanation.



Thus, in considering the Landis affair we are faced with 2 possible explanations:



1) An unknown individual working in the testing lab deliberately contaminated Floyd’s urine sample, possibly due to French unhappiness at an American winning their national race again. (Let’s not go into the actual physical difficulties of effectively doctoring a urine sample to simulate a positive test at this stage)

2) An ambitious professional athlete on a team sullied by several high profile drug scandals, in a sport widely held to be rife with drug abuse, takes stimulant to recover from a bad day to produce a performance widely heralded as “unbelievable” in order to win the most prestigious and gruelling endurance competition in cycling sport.





I know which one I think is more likely, but then I don’t live in a country where one in five people believe they’ve been abducted by Aliens….

The Article was displayed on bicycling.com

Let's face it. The type of testing done today is totally inadequate. Tests are easy to fool and once in a while they actually catch somebody who didn't get their balancing act down good enough to fool a test on a given day.

Did Landis take testosterone? Was he framed? Are the tests wrong? Who gives a crap! They all agreed to the ridiculous system in the first place and are happy with it unless it happens to bite them in the ass. Then they cry like babies.

Hamilton, Heras, and Landis actually failed doping tests. David Millar had passed his tests and was caught in a doping investigation. He ultimately admitted that he was guilty. Ullrich, Basso and significant others were implicated in a doping investigation and suspended. How did these guys pass all their tests? Why aren't Americans crying about how unfair it is that some of these European cyclists are getting screwed without due process? (I'm American, by the way)

When all the dust finally settles down I think that Landis' case will pale in significance to everyone else getting caught in the net. This whole business has only gotten started.

Let's face it. The type of testing done today is totally inadequate. Tests are easy to fool and once in a while they actually catch somebody who didn't get their balancing act down good enough to fool a test on a given day.

Did Landis take testosterone? Was he framed? Are the tests wrong? Who gives a crap! They all agreed to the ridiculous system in the first place and are happy with it unless it happens to bite them in the ass. Then they cry like babies.

Hamilton, Heras, and Landis actually failed doping tests. David Millar had passed his tests and was caught in a doping investigation. He ultimately admitted that he was guilty. Ullrich, Basso and significant others were implicated in a doping investigation and suspended. How did these guys pass all their tests? Why aren't Americans crying about how unfair it is that some of these European cyclists are getting screwed without due process? (I'm American, by the way)

When all the dust finally settles down I think that Landis' case will pale in significance to everyone else getting caught in the net. This whole business has only gotten started.Lance, is that really you?

I wonder if any of those dudes are actually on these forums. I bet they check them out.

anyway the trustbutverify (http://trustbut.blogspot.com/2006/10/news-velonews-covers-yesterdays-ap.html) dude has some interesting documents posted on his site...if they're legit it basically says that the results of the T/E test are not entirely reliable due to some interfering 'matrix'.

Interesting...to say the least. check it out http://trustbut.blogspot.com

I love them.