Ignore if you are not interested in Israel/Lebanon Ceasfire...

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What are you so scared of?


I am sacred of deluded bigots exploiting the echo-chamber effect of blogs & message boards to promote violence and terror.

As for the ridiculous sporting analogy : When you play 45+ minutes of Rugby on a cracked kneecap as a #6, then run 15 miles of cross country in the Penines (and come 3rd in the second to last race) then I'll give you some credence. At the end of the day that won't make one jot of difference to the reality that Israel is out of order. So your post amounts to little more than irrelevent trash talk. When you have some evidence + sources let me know.

I am pretty awful at it to be honest, I just post reports with sources, and when I am wrong I say so. Spinners (like yourself) never admit they are wrong, they just pretend the world revolves around them..


The world does not revolve around me...I am not an Israeli and quite frankly am not the big of a fan of Israel. I think the support that the US gives to them causes us FAR FAR more headache than it is worth. I simply see it this way.....Hezbollah attacked Israel....>the lebanese government and citizens allows this terror group to operate freely in their borders. Israel retaliated and I agree with it.

You can call me a spinner all you want...but being a non fan of Israel...I am simply stating my opinion on the subject.





IF that is the case how come alleged Hezbollah militants are being shot just 3km from the border, hmm ?


When these "volunteers" hid behind women and children then I am sure Israel advanced right past some of them.




Got any evidence to prove it from any source other than the IDF, or a source that is quoting the IDF, or a source that is affiliated to the IDF ?


No...do you?



No need to spin it, let the facts speak for themselves. Ifs/Buts & Maybes are just that, they don't reflect reality.



Within Israel the blame is being laid with Olmert/Halutz/Peretz.


Public blame...private celebration.



Attacking indiscriminately, killing, wounding and destroy civillian infrastructure simply because they happen to be living there is dumb, immoral and illegal. The fact that Israel (and you) recognise the problem, yet persist in attacking indiscriminately confirms that Israel (and you) are dumb, immoral and criminal.


War is hell pal. When you lie down with dogs...you get fleas.



For the record the IDF operates in exactly the same way as well. All those border towns have barracks, artillery posts, amunitions dumps and the like in them or nearby. All those IDF reservists were hiding behind their wives and children...


Yeah they were hiding when they rolled into Lebanon....what did they do pack up the town and bring it with them? If Hezbollah invaded Israel you can damn well bet the soldiers wouldn't be mixed in amongst the civilians. They would be uniformed and fighting the enemy openly and vehemently.

Hezbollah hides in the mosques, schools, hospitals....etc. They're pathetic.



The fact of the matter is that invading armies will *always* find it nigh-on impossible to distinguish between hostile and friendly on enemy turf. The reason being that just about everyone is hostile *because* the invaders have been breaking stuff and killing people.

The days of agreeing on a field to fight on went out with plate mail armor, it is time you and your IDF chums got used to the harsh realities of war rather than whinge about it.


The only one whining is you. IDF didn't whine...they simply responded to allegations of disproportionate force. So if you agree that everyone is hostile then their are no innocents and the invading force is going to do what it needs to do. You can't have it both ways.


In your opinion every last square inch of Lebanon should be destroyed (and by implication that will lead to the deaths of the majority of Lebanese).


Nope....but if Hezbollah continues to invade, attack and kill Israelis from Lebanese land then nobody could blame Israel if that is the outcome.



People who do not take responsibility for their actions are cowards and liars. When you say it's all Hezbollah's fault that the IDF attacked civillians in the very towns where they lived, you are simply making a liar and a coward out of the IDF.



Uh no....you are kind of dense aren't you. Hezbollah attacked Israel. Killed Israelis and kidnapped 2 soldiers. Israel retaliates against the sovereign country that attacked it.

You can try to separate Hezbollah from the Lebanese but they are one in the same. If the Lebanese government allows a known terror organization to operate freely and attack other sovereign countries from their soil....then they get EXACTLY what they deserve.



Steady on Adolf.


Too stupid to bother with.


The IDF and Olmert both claimed that the abduction happened on Lebanese turf. It was only after they had killed a few hundred Lebanese that they changed their story to fit their claims of provocation. At the start of this thread I outlined three incidents of the IDF breaking the Ceasefire with lethal consequences. By your very own calculus of revenge the entire state of Israel must be bombed "flat as a prarie".
Bomb away if you think you have the sack. If Israel invaded Lebanon then I think Lebanon would be FULLY right to retaliate against Israel.

What utter tosh. The limitations were on man-power and cash. There is absolutely no evidence that public opinion had any sway whatsoever, the US forces bailed out because they were getting swamped by the NVA and the costs were unsustainable.
Dude...what country are you from?

We lost that war on the network news every night. The people of America were not supportive of that war and if we so chose.....and if our country was behind the cause.....then Vietnam would be a Club Med today.

Update to the scoresheet ...



All sourced from the BBC which in turn sourced them from the Israeli authorities (or other sources where stated). I have not seen any reports of Hezbollah attacking the IDF or Israel since the ceasefire took hold, if anyone has seen reports, let me know times dates and sources.

Israel has violated the ceasefire at least 5 times (and shot itself up once). As far as I am aware Hezbollah have abided by the ceasefire.
Hezbollah didn't suddenly get morals. They are abiding by the ceasefire because they don't want holy hell rained down on them again now that they see what exactly how serious Israel is about defending themselves.

If they were the "victors" as you claim....do you think they would sit idly by and take these attacks?

You can't be naive enough to think that can you?

The world does not revolve around me...I am not an Israeli and quite frankly am not the big of a fan of Israel. I think the support that the US gives to them causes us FAR FAR more headache than it is worth. I simply see it this way.....Hezbollah attacked Israel....>the lebanese government and citizens allows this terror group to operate freely in their borders. Israel retaliated and I agree with it.

You can call me a spinner all you want...but being a non fan of Israel...I am simply stating my opinion on the subject.


When these "volunteers" hid behind women and children then I am sure Israel advanced right past some of them.


No...do you?


Public blame...private celebration.


War is hell pal. When you lie down with dogs...you get fleas.


Yeah they were hiding when they rolled into Lebanon....what did they do pack up the town and bring it with them? If Hezbollah invaded Israel you can damn well bet the soldiers wouldn't be mixed in amongst the civilians. They would be uniformed and fighting the enemy openly and vehemently.

Hezbollah hides in the mosques, schools, hospitals....etc. They're pathetic.


The only one whining is you. IDF didn't whine...they simply responded to allegations of disproportionate force. So if you agree that everyone is hostile then their are no innocents and the invading force is going to do what it needs to do. You can't have it both ways.


Nope....but if Hezbollah continues to invade, attack and kill Israelis from Lebanese land then nobody could blame Israel if that is the outcome.



Uh no....you are kind of dense aren't you. Hezbollah attacked Israel. Killed Israelis and kidnapped 2 soldiers. Israel retaliates against the sovereign country that attacked it.

You can try to separate Hezbollah from the Lebanese but they are one in the same. If the Lebanese government allows a known terror organization to operate freely and attack other sovereign countries from their soil....then they get EXACTLY what they deserve.


Bomb away if you think you have the sack. If Israel invaded Lebanon then I think Lebanon would be FULLY right to retaliate against Israel.

Bill,

You remind me of another member here called Billsworld.
Are you one in the same?

Your post above.

I suggest that you review the military position of the IDF located in Northern Israel - and see their proximity to schools/hospitals and other large urban areas.
IDF has been positioned in these locations of dense populations.
So if you're going to accuse one side - you should accuse the other side too.
As you say, you can't have it both ways.

In respect of invasions - Israel invaded Lebanon on July 12th.
This latest invasion by Israel - marks Israel's latest encroachment of the Blue Line designated by the UN as the demilitarised area since 2000.
To 12th July, Israel violated that area "hundreds of times" according to UNIFIL.


Finally

..I am not an Israeli and quite frankly am not the big of a fan of Israel.

Sure, we believe you!

We lost that war on the network news every night. The people of America were not supportive of that war and if we so chose.....and if our country was behind the cause.....then Vietnam would be a Club Med today.

Revisionism is a great thing.

"The people of America were not supportive.........."

If you weren't supportive why did Johnson send over 500,000 troops to Vietnam between 1964-1968?

Despite 500,000 troops, despite all the technology with those troops, your country started to lost that war.
That's the people of America were not supportive of the war .....it was only after the bodybag count started to really accumulate.
There was never any choice in it - the NVA saw to that.

PHHHEEEW! That was the biggest drubbing I ever saw Darkboong ever get on the soapbox ever.

:confused: :confused: :confused:
Now I am confused. :rolleyes:

"No wasteful posts about Chechyna or Vietnam. If you want to post about them - start a new thread. Threads are to stay on topic from here on in.
Any meandering will be editied."

"Despite 500,000 troops, despite all the technology with those troops, your country started to lost that war.
That's the people of America were not supportive of the war .....it was only after the bodybag count started to really accumulate."







Revisionism is a great thing.

"The people of America were not supportive.........."

If you weren't supportive why did Johnson send over 500,000 troops to Vietnam between 1964-1968?

Despite 500,000 troops, despite all the technology with those troops, your country started to lost that war.
That's the people of America were not supportive of the war .....it was only after the bodybag count started to really accumulate.
There was never any choice in it - the NVA saw to that.

Revisionism is a great thing.

"The people of America were not supportive.........."

If you weren't supportive why did Johnson send over 500,000 troops to Vietnam between 1964-1968?

Despite 500,000 troops, despite all the technology with those troops, your country started to lost that war.
That's the people of America were not supportive of the war .....it was only after the bodybag count started to really accumulate.
There was never any choice in it - the NVA saw to that.I guess it's easy for someone to sit in a country as inconsequential to world affairs as Ireland and cast judgement on everyone else.

I guess I understand the inferiority complex.......I mean really....if Ireland sunk into the ocean tomorrow.....would anyone in the world even notice?

Does Ireland produce anything....do you carry any clout....do you other nations consult you on any move that they make......the answer to all of them is no. That's gotta suck......doesn't it.

Our military in Vietnam was not very technologically advanced...I admit completely we lost the war.....I will also vehemently defend the fact that we fought that war like a drunken Irishman. Flailing around, frothing and spitting but really being inneffective in our actions.

It won't ever happen again. I think we proved that in Afghanistan when we laid waste to the vaunted Taliban and "Mujahadeen" that stood down the dreaded Soviet military.

So to find an example where a military defeated a "guerilla" army you don't have to reach very far back into history to find your first example.....unless of course you are going to pull the BS theory that they survived so they won.

I don't call hiding in caves and living on the run being victorious. Prior to our action....they were in power and ruled Afghanistan...now they live like rats in the mountains and tremble at the sound of a helicopter.

We win.....again.

Bill,

You remind me of another member here called Billsworld.
Are you one in the same?


No...never heard of Billsworld. Sorry.



Your post above.

I suggest that you review the military position of the IDF located in Northern Israel - and see their proximity to schools/hospitals and other large urban areas.
IDF has been positioned in these locations of dense populations.
So if you're going to accuse one side - you should accuse the other side too.
As you say, you can't have it both ways.



The difference being....if Israel were to be invaded.....the IDF wouldn't take up defensive positions in schools, churches and hospitals. They might be near them...hell in America our bases our near cities too.

The proximity of a "base" is irrelevant...what matters is where you take up a defensive position when being bombed. If you are near a hospital....oh well....but when you are IN the hospital...hoping like hell that the IDF will take pity on you....then you become pathetic.



In respect of invasions - Israel invaded Lebanon on July 12th.
This latest invasion by Israel - marks Israel's latest encroachment of the Blue Line designated by the UN as the demilitarised area since 2000.
To 12th July, Israel violated that area "hundreds of times" according to UNIFIL.


If Israel violated the sovereign territory of Lebanon then by all means Lebanon is within their rights to attack Israel....but when that happens.....expect Israel to defend itself. This isn't rocket science.



Finally



Sure, we believe you!
Well....you believing me is really important to me too.....I couldn't care less what you believe. The facts are the facts....many Americans are not exactly ardent supporters of our countr supporting Israel so devoutly. I am one of them...whether you believe it or not....it matters not to me.

Hezbollah didn't suddenly get morals.


I'm not making any call on that issue whatsoever. The point of the summary is to list the events that lead up to the breakdown of the ceasefire...

With all due respect BillM : Ehud Olmert, Dan Halutz, Amir Peretz and Nasrallah all agreed that the two IDF troops were captured on the Lebanese side of the border. The Israelis changed their story without any explaination some days after the fighting started, I provided sources dates and times in another thread.


They are abiding by the ceasefire because they don't want holy hell rained down on them again now that they see what exactly how serious Israel is about defending themselves.


If that is your definition self-defence, you must also accept that the Lebanese have the right to defend themselves by invading Israel too. As far as I am concerned invading a country and bombing it flat counts as *attacking*.


If they were the "victors" as you claim....do you think they would sit idly by and take these attacks?


Hezbollah are people, just the same as the IDF servicemen, you and me. No one in their right mind wants more violence (clearly you aren't in your right mind because you do).

The difference being....if Israel were to be invaded.....the IDF wouldn't take up defensive positions in schools, churches and hospitals.


If/Buts/Maybes...

The IDF would. Any army worth it's salt would, particularly if the opposition is *attacking* the schools, churches and hospitals as the IDF do. Clearly you have seen the pictures of the hospitals they've attacked, the ambulances they've attacked and the schools they have attacked. Maybe you have heard about the school kids that have been shot at their desks by IDF snipers within the Occupied Territories.


They might be near them...hell in America our bases our near cities too.


It is inevitable which is why I find the IDF's whinging about it pretty lame, particularly when they would be in the same position if they were being invaded or bombed.


If Israel violated the sovereign territory of Lebanon then by all means Lebanon is within their rights to attack Israel....but when that happens.....expect Israel to defend itself. This isn't rocket science.


Israel *has* violated Lebanese sovereign territory for *decades*. UNIFIL has produced hundreds of reports of these violations, you can read the summaries at the UN website. I've even provided references to several of them in other posts.


Well....you believing me is really important to me too.....I couldn't care less what you believe. The facts are the facts....many Americans are not exactly ardent supporters of our countr supporting Israel so devoutly. I am one of them...whether you believe it or not....it matters not to me.


Fair play, but don't expect us to roll over when you make all these bold assertions without one shred of evidence to back it up.

I'm not making any call on that issue whatsoever. The point of the summary is to list the events that lead up to the breakdown of the ceasefire...


Now why won't you make a call on that....you seem to be informed enough to make a call on everything else...from American politics to what the IDF motives are but this you won't touch. Nice.



With all due respect BillM : Ehud Olmert, Dan Halutz, Amir Peretz and Nasrallah all agreed that the two IDF troops were captured on the Lebanese side of the border. The Israelis changed their story without any explaination some days after the fighting started, I provided sources dates and times in another thread.


Ok....did you mention the 8 Israelis that were killed in the same operation that resulted in those two soldiers being kidnapped? Assuming what you say is true....why has NOBODY else...at least that I have heard....said that. Why did the world media that was pounding on Israel to stop.....never mention it?
The only place I have ever heard that....was from you....on here....so you couldn't blame me for being skeptical.

If it is true....Lebanon is within their rights to defend themselves but they have to be prepared for the consequences of their actions as well.





If that is your definition self-defence, you must also accept that the Lebanese have the right to defend themselves by invading Israel too. As far as I am concerned invading a country and bombing it flat counts as *attacking*.


Sure....Lebanon has that right....I completely agree...but of course Israel is going to defend itself.




Hezbollah are people, just the same as the IDF servicemen, you and me. No one in their right mind wants more violence (clearly you aren't in your right mind because you do).
I thought you would make a whole post without an insult...I guess I was wrong.

In a way I think more violence is the answer......this region has been embroiled in mindless violence for decades.....I don't think they will ever live in peace.....so maybe an all out war to finally decide who gets to call the shots is the answer.

I do know this....as a world citizen.....I am sick and tired of hearing about violence in the Middle East. I stand by me statement....if Hezbollah were "victorious" as you allege.....then they wouldn't sit their like bumps on a log and let the IDF attack them with no response.

If/Buts/Maybes...

The IDF would. Any army worth it's salt would, particularly if the opposition is *attacking* the schools, churches and hospitals as the IDF do. Clearly you have seen the pictures of the hospitals they've attacked, the ambulances they've attacked and the schools they have attacked. Maybe you have heard about the school kids that have been shot at their desks by IDF snipers within the Occupied Territories.


If you think it's ok for soldiers to hide in schools and churches then that speaks volumes. Enough said.



It is inevitable which is why I find the IDF's whinging about it pretty lame, particularly when they would be in the same position if they were being invaded or bombed.



The IDF doesn't whine about it....they respond to those who are whining because a church was bombed.

If the damn "volunteers" weren't holed up in there like rats hoping like hell that the IDF wouldn't bomb them....then the chances of it actually happening are minimal. The IDF gains nothing from bombing these kinds of targets and they have everything to gain by NOT doing it. They KNOW they are going to be painted as evil for doing it.

Think about it.





Israel *has* violated Lebanese sovereign territory for *decades*. UNIFIL has produced hundreds of reports of these violations, you can read the summaries at the UN website. I've even provided references to several of them in other posts.


Then Lebanon should defend itself. I don't understand your point.....I doubt Israel violated Lebanese territory for no reason. I doubt they were just out for a stroll and crossed the border by mistake or suddenly had the urge for some Lebanese takeout food.





Fair play, but don't expect us to roll over when you make all these bold assertions without one shred of evidence to back it up.
The evidence is common sense.....so you are right in saying that you don't have a shred of it.

Darkboong is big on talk and excuses but the truth is these political/geographical issues have always been decided by armies throughout the centuries.
The Islamic World resents a Jewish presence in the Middle East as they feel threatened by it. Envy also comes into it. Judaism is 1,400 years older than Islam since Islam only appeared around 600 A.D. Deep down, that upsets the Islamic extremists as what they seek is control over Jerusalem.
Darkboong also wishes to see Islam in control of Jerusalem but he simply won't admit it (although occasionally he slips up).
So, this is straightforward to accept: The Moslem World seeks control of Jerusalem and, more than likely, plans to continue its attacks on Israel and the U.S., using every trick in the book. Usuaally this boils down to masked men without a uniform who hide in shadows and lay bombs.
However, if countries such as Iran and organizations like Hamas aim to displace Jews, they should have no doubt that this time round, Jews will fight with all the arms at their disposal. They shouldn't imagine it's going to be stroll in the park. My money is also on Israel to defeat any Arab State when push comes to shove and that includes Iran.
This latest confrontation will only make the IDF more aware of how worse things would be if Iran had WMD. This is why they will take the fight directly to Iran in good time. That's my view.


If you think it's ok for soldiers to hide in schools and churches then that speaks volumes. Enough said.



The IDF doesn't whine about it....they respond to those who are whining because a church was bombed.

If the damn "volunteers" weren't holed up in there like rats hoping like hell that the IDF wouldn't bomb them....then the chances of it actually happening are minimal. The IDF gains nothing from bombing these kinds of targets and they have everything to gain by NOT doing it. They KNOW they are going to be painted as evil for doing it.

Think about it.


Then Lebanon should defend itself. I don't understand your point.....I doubt Israel violated Lebanese territory for no reason. I doubt they were just out for a stroll and crossed the border by mistake or suddenly had the urge for some Lebanese takeout food.


The evidence is common sense.....so you are right in saying that you don't have a shred of it.

I guess it's easy for someone to sit in a country as inconsequential to world affairs as Ireland and cast judgement on everyone else.

I guess I understand the inferiority complex.......I mean really....if Ireland sunk into the ocean tomorrow.....would anyone in the world even notice?


Not casting judgement on anyone, Bill.

Merely stating that it was a fact that the NVA ran your country out of Vietnam.
Not my problem that you refuse to face facts.

And as regards inferiority complex - we don't have an inferiority complex.
Nor do we invade countries.





It won't ever happen again. I think we proved that in Afghanistan when we laid waste to the vaunted Taliban and "Mujahadeen" that stood down the dreaded Soviet military.



I don't think the British soldiers who are being picked off by the Taliban in the Helmand Province of Afghanistan would concur with your latest claim.

The Taliban - unfortunately - still control large areas of Afghanistan and Sharia Law is still imposed therein.





So to find an example where a military defeated a "guerilla" army you don't have to reach very far back into history to find your first example.....unless of course you are going to pull the BS theory that they survived so they won.

I don't call hiding in caves and living on the run being victorious. Prior to our action....they were in power and ruled Afghanistan...now they live like rats in the mountains and tremble at the sound of a helicopter.

We win.....again.

Afghanistan and Iraq have been lost Bill.
Both countries are in a state of anarchy.

You're in denial.

The Islamic World resents a Jewish presence in the Middle East as they feel threatened by it.

Jews, Christians and Muslims lived "cheek by jowl" in Palestine from 13th century to 1918.
If your claim is true - how come Judasim was allowed to flourish under the Caliphate (1211 - 1918) ?


Judaism is 1,400 years older than Islam since Islam only appeared around 600 A.D. Deep down, that upsets the Islamic extremists as what they seek is control over Jerusalem.


Muslims allowed access to Jerusalem during the 1211-1918 period - that's 707 years of access for both Jew and Christian to Jerusalem.




Darkboong also wishes to see Islam in control of Jerusalem but he simply won't admit it (although occasionally he slips up).

Carerra - I would like you to provide proof where Darkbong made such a claim.

This is another lie that you have posted here - carerra.
Having asked you to desist - you still persist in posting lies.
I am not prepared to indulge your posting lies about other posters.

"Carerra - I would like you to provide proof where Darkbong made such a claim."

Sure! There have been occasions where Darkboong has slipped up. Let's take a look at this statement he made, for instance, and let's allow other people to make a collective decision, so we get a fair analysis:

"The Chechnya conflict is about regaining independence. The Israeli conflict is about setting up a Jewish state in a majority Muslim land."
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-352682-15-2.html (Darkboong)


Specify the message number under which you claim that Darkboong made that statement, please.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-352682-15-2.html
Try here. Third thread down, I think.

I read the third message - on the link that you provided and I cannot see where
DB made the claim that you say he made.

Which has brought us to the same problem, Carerra.
You're posting more lies again

I suggest to you that you ought to retract your false statement about DB.

The statement is..............


There is no reference in DB's third message on that link you specified.

Carerra, you have made a series of false claims here over the past while.

I suggest that you retract what you said about DB and then we can proceed with the discussion.