What happens when you oppose Bu$hCo too vigorously

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana
Battle of Isandlwana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaHey mr. bookwurm, you know nothing about the greatest fighting force known to mankind....

Hey mr. bookwurm, you know nothing about the greatest fighting force known to mankind....
Sure I do.
There was a Gurkha barracks just down the road from us in Malaya.

I saw the film Zulu. What I meant was technology has always been the deciding factor in the long run. The only way the barbarians were able to defeat the Romans was when the Romans were already a spent force(by 350 A.D.). The Rome that struggled to hold off Vandals and Goths wasn't the same Rome that beat Hannibal in the Punic War.
It's the same with the Taliban. The Taliban aren't fighting the same British army that gave Hitler a run for his money. Our current army is a spent force, totally reliant on thr U.S.A., lacking funds and overstretched. I mean, if Churchill was around to witness the Brits today struggling against Afghan fighters armed with a few ageing Soviet relics, he'd be quite stunned.
There was simply no comparison between the German army in WW2 and the Taleban. The idea the Taleban is viewed even as a credible force shows how far we've declined militarily over the last few decades.
I guess it will happen to the U.S. too one day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana
Battle of Isandlwana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Churchill would have been well aware of the result of the First Afghan War...a 16,000 strong British column retreating from Kabul was massacred in 1842 leaving just one survivor.
Everone who invades the place gets their arses kicked.Why don't more generals learn from history?
The Vietnamese kicked the Chinese out a thousand years ago and again in 1978,and every other invader in between.Why did anyone ever think they couldn't?
History repeats itself,particularly in Central Asia.

Hey mr. bookwurm, you know nothing about the greatest fighting force known to mankind....Book-larnin'...that's what's wrong with the world today.Too much book-larnin'.
:D

Prove that Binladen's calling the shots?

Where would you like to start, Bill?
Your country placed a $25m bounty to capture Osama BinLaden "dead or alive" in October 2001.
Has that bounty been claimed - at this time of writing?
No.


Can you prove that it hasn't been claimed?


Five years is a long time.


No Lim...Five years is not a long time.



If your country was calling the shots - how come the bounty hasn't been claimed?

How about the cost of the Afghan war, Bill?
Your own Treasury Dept has stated that your country spent - in it's military budget - $4.2 billion dollars on trying to eradiciate Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
$4.2 billion is an awful lot of money.


4.2 billion is a lot of money to you....can you prove that it is a lot of money to us?


Has that resulted in the capture of Binladen?
No.


How do you know...we have secret prisons where we torture the unsuspecting. We're Americans after all...it's what we do....you don't know where Bin Laden is do you? Can you prove that we haven't captured him?




Has Binladen and Al Qaeda forced the US to spend money it would otherwise spent on something else?
Yep. $4.2 billion to be exact.

Why has your country spent so much money on this issue - if your country was in control and calling the shots, Bill?


To get the oil and to make Bush rich.....ask Wurm.



How about the money that your country spent in trying to update security equipment at your country's airports?
Why would your country spend all this money - if your country was calling the shots Bill?


Because we needed it?


Or the expenditure incurred since in manhours worked by non-military personnel on the Binladen/Al Qaeda issue since 2001?
If your country was calling the shots, Bill, your country wouldn't have to incur these costs either.
How much money has Binladen compelled your country to spend on this?
Hundreds of millions, no doubt.


A pittance compared to what we are sucking out of the ground right now in Iraq.



I don't know if Binladen's alive Bill.
I don't particlarly care if he's alive or dead either.


Well if you don't know...then how can you know that we haven't captured him? You are contradicting yourself Lim.



I do know that his actions have directed your country's policies during the past five years.


How do you know this Lim? Do you have a crystal ball that tells you what our countries policies would have been if not for 9/11?

No you don't Lim. You are not gifted with special powers Lim. You can only speculate on what you think we might have done Lim. That is the way the world is Lim.....you just need to come to grips with it Lim. You know what I mean Lim.



We know that Bush did go to war under false pretences Bill.
We know that the reasons given to justify his going to war, were lies.

He went to war to get his hands on the Iraqi oilfields.


How do you know this Lim. Can you read minds? Do you know what was said behind closed doors Lim?

How do you know the reasons were lies versus incorrect information Lim?

Are you endowed with special powers that nobody else is Lim?

I don't think so Lim. You are not all knowing Lim...I know this is a shock Lim...but you cannot speak fact based to something when you weren't there for yourself Lim. You can only parrot what the other dodo birds say Lim. You are repeating what they say as though you have first hand information Lim.

I feel sorry for you Lim. Lim..you need to stay on topic Lim. You're just being difficult now Lim. Please try harder Lim.



Bill - Binladen's been leading your country on the most expensive, wild goose chase in history.


Lim do you know for a fact that it is the most expensive wild goose chase in history Lim? Is their a factual tome of all the wild goose chases in history somewhere over there Lim? Please enlighten us Lim because nobody else seems to know even what the top 10 most expensive wild goose chases are Lim...but somehow you know what THE most expensive one is Lim.

You must have a remarkable gift Lim. Truly special Lim.


Literally billions have been spent trying to locate a man who has dominated the political policy formation of your country since 2001.

You're the one who's retarded Bill.


Lim do you know that I am retarded? How can you know this Lim? Have you ever met me Lim? Don't you think it's kind of judgemental when you have never met someone to call them retarded Lim? Is that how your mother raised you Lim?





Bill - I'm telling YOU how your country isn't dealing with it.




Bill - hate to burst your bubble here.
The war is over. Has been for a long time.

In fact, the people formerly portrayed as "terrorists" now have access to goverment and frequently attend the offices of both the British and Irish goverments.
In fact, they have access to your country's White House too, Bill.
Took the politicians a long time - but they finally realised that dialogue works.

Your country would do well to follow that example.




Bill, that's naive!

Your goverment will do what's expedient.
The rhetoric today, reminds me of rhetoric Reagan used about the hostages in Lebanon in the 1980's.
"Hey, we don't do deals with................."
Yeah right.
And we all know that they did deals - despite their words.
I think my point has been proven Lim.

Lim...try to stay on topic Lim.

Can you prove that it hasn't been claimed?


No Lim...Five years is not a long time.


4.2 billion is a lot of money to you....can you prove that it is a lot of money to us?


How do you know...we have secret prisons where we torture the unsuspecting. We're Americans after all...it's what we do....you don't know where Bin Laden is do you? Can you prove that we haven't captured him?

I think my point has been proven Lim.

Lim...try to stay on topic Lim.Very good Post BillM. You seem to be very well informed IRT finances. Are you an accountant or somehow involved perhaps in payroll or something...I mean with a user name "BillM", it could be said like..."bill'em"...Just curious. But once again, spot on post and I think you made your point crystal clear. However, sometimes it does't matter if you are correct around here....Let's just say ahem, there are some very thick skulls in the soapbox....

Sure I do.
There was a Gurkha barracks just down the road from us in Malaya.What did you do shine shoes???Just curious.

I'm not convinced. Afghanistan is a dry, rocky desert with many places to hide. So, the Taliban hides, launches a few raids with small arms and hides again.
They were beaten quite soundly by the U.S. military in a matter of weeks so they essentially disappeared. Now the U.S. has moved on, they're coming back, probably going to and fro from Pakistan and back to the border.
As an army, they're pretty basic. So long as they don't get their hands on missile technology and can't threaten other contries, they're hardly worth worrying over.

Churchill would have been well aware of the result of the First Afghan War...a 16,000 strong British column retreating from Kabul was massacred in 1842 leaving just one survivor.
Everone who invades the place gets their arses kicked.Why don't more generals learn from history?
The Vietnamese kicked the Chinese out a thousand years ago and again in 1978,and every other invader in between.Why did anyone ever think they couldn't?
History repeats itself,particularly in Central Asia.

I'm not convinced. Afghanistan is a dry, rocky desert with many places to hide. So, the Taliban hides, launches a few raids with small arms and hides again.
They were beaten quite soundly by the U.S. military in a matter of weeks so they essentially disappeared. Now the U.S. has moved on, they're coming back, probably going to and fro from Pakistan and back to the border.
As an army, they're pretty basic. So long as they don't get their hands on missile technology and can't threaten other contries, they're hardly worth worrying over.And...they don't have a "Lion of Panjshir"...Lucky for them that obl took him out...too bad for us though...

Can you prove that it hasn't been claimed?


can you prove that it has, Bill ?


No Lim...Five years is not a long time.


Five years is a long time Bill.
Too long.


4.2 billion is a lot of money to you....can you prove that it is a lot of money to us?


Of itself it's a lot of money, Bill.

And additionally even more so, given that it failed to render the capture of Binladen in over 5 years.


..we have secret prisons where we torture the unsuspecting. We're Americans after all...it's what we do....you don't know where Bin Laden is do you? Can you prove that we haven't captured him?



Can you prove that you have captured him ? You said earlier that he was living in a cave.
Which is it - capture or cave?



.......then how can you know that we haven't captured him? You are contradicting yourself Lim.



Can you prove that the US captured Binladen?

You told us earlier that you knew that Binladen was living in a cave..........
You're contradicting yourself, Bill.



How do you know this Lim?



'Cause Sept 11th happened Bill.



Do you have a crystal ball that tells you what our countries policies would have been if not for 9/11?


No crystal ball needed, Bill.
Just need to look at the amount of money your country is spending on trying to securitise itself, and the other money spent on a war in Iraq and the other money spent on a war in Afghanistan.


No you don't Lim.


Yes I do Bill.


You can only speculate on what you think we might have done Lim. That is the way the world is Lim.....you just need to come to grips with it Lim. You know what I mean Lim.


The money spent by your country in "the war on terror" isn't speculation, Bill.
$300 billion in Iraq.
$4.2 billion in Afgahistan.
Hundreds of million spent on aurport security in the USA.
Hundreds of millions spent on manhours.

Not speculation at all Bill.




How do you know this Lim. Can you read minds? Do you know what was said behind closed doors Lim?


No need to be able to read minds, Bill, or to be in attendance at meetings Bill.

The expenditure speaks volumes, Bill.
As do the lack of results too, Bill.




How do you know the reasons were lies versus incorrect information Lim?



..cause your country's enquiry told us that information was fabricated, Bill.




Are you endowed with special powers that nobody else is Lim?



No.

Are you, Bill?




I don't think so Lim. You are not all knowing Lim...I know this is a shock Lim...but you cannot speak fact based to something when you weren't there for yourself Lim. You can only parrot what the other dodo birds say Lim. You are repeating what they say as though you have first hand information Lim.


Indeed, Bill.

Bill, as for parroting, the expenditure numbers are provided by your country's Treasury Dept, dodo or otherwise.



I feel sorry for you Lim.



You don't, Bill.



Lim..you need to stay on topic Lim.




Bill.....I've been on topic.




You're just being difficult now Lim.

I'm not being difficult, Bill.



Lim do you know for a fact that it is the most expensive wild goose chase in history Lim?


So what d'ya call $4.2 billion spent, with, err, no result, Bill?




Is their a factual tome of all the wild goose chases in history somewhere over there Lim?


Yep.
US Treasury tome, Bill.




Please enlighten us Lim because nobody else seems to know even what the top 10 most expensive wild goose chases are Lim...but somehow you know what THE most expensive one is Lim.


...........and result of all that expenditure is Bill?




Lim do you know that I am retarded? .

Bill, you first accused other people of being retarded - that is retarded, Bill




Don't you think it's kind of judgemental when you have never met someone to call them retarded Lim?

....and you were the first to rush to judgement, Bill.




I think my point has been proven Lim.



None of your points have been proven, Bill.





Lim...try to stay on topic Lim.

Bill, I've been on topic all along. Bill.

I'm not convinced. Afghanistan is a dry, rocky desert with many places to hide. So, the Taliban hides, launches a few raids with small arms and hides again.
They were beaten quite soundly by the U.S. military in a matter of weeks so they essentially disappeared. Now the U.S. has moved on, they're coming back, probably going to and fro from Pakistan and back to the border.
As an army, they're pretty basic. So long as they don't get their hands on missile technology and can't threaten other contries, they're hardly worth worrying over.

Afghanistan is a dry arid location.

But if you're a student of history, you'd know that Afghanistan was always the subject of interest for imperial powers.
The last foreign ruler to conquer Afghanistan was Alexander.
You would also be aware that Afghan history provided one of the largest empires in human history - that of Genghis Khan.

Since then every other invader has had their arse kicked as SB says.

The Russians were on the receiving end prior to 1840.
In 1842, the Britis were booted out of Afghanistan - Capt Connolly and Colonel Stoddart were beheaded and only one Brit was allowed to leave alive.
by Emir Nasrullah.

Afghanistan is of particular interest as a strategic location.
Proximity to the Kyber Pass : a country bordering India, gateway to the Middle East from the Orient, Afghanistan is strategiclly well placed.

Technology is useless in the type of fight underway in Afghanistan now.
That's why NATO are requesting bodies on the ground.
This fight won't be won through technology.

The truth is the USSR used this country as a training ground for rookies. I had Russian friends who served there - it was often part of basic training. If you're talking about the kind of wars where rules of engagement are restricted by politics and geography, sure, it would take a long time to subdue Afghanistan. But when you come down to the crunch, either the U.S. or Russia could detroy Afghanistan hundreds of times over, whereas Afghanistan has no such capacity, no rockets, no satellites, no submarines, no home-produced fighter jets. It is hundreds of years behind western Europe and will remain that way unless it joins the industrialised world the way China has done.

Afghanistan is a dry arid location.

But if you're a student of history, you'd know that Afghanistan was always the subject of interest for imperial powers.
The last foreign ruler to conquer Afghanistan was Alexander.
You would also be aware that Afghan history provided one of the largest empires in human history - that of Genghis Khan.

Since then every other invader has had their arse kicked as SB says.

The Russians were on the receiving end prior to 1840.
In 1842, the Britis were booted out of Afghanistan - Capt Connolly and Colonel Stoddart were beheaded and only one Brit was allowed to leave alive.
by Emir Nasrullah.

Afghanistan is of particular interest as a strategic location.
Proximity to the Kyber Pass : a country bordering India, gateway to the Middle East from the Orient, Afghanistan is strategiclly well placed.

Technology is useless in the type of fight underway in Afghanistan now.
That's why NATO are requesting bodies on the ground.
This fight won't be won through technology.

Technology is everything. It's the countries that own technology that will decide the future. O.K., we all know the U.S. is far from perfect but, if nothing else, Americans had the good sense to invest in foreign skills to take them forward, while Britain didn't do so. Britain lost many of its best scientists to the U.S. because the U.S. invested higher money to keep ahead.
Like it or lump it, the U.S. still leads the world in technology. If a huge chunk of rock ever threatens our planet and has to be taken out somehow, it's not Iran or Afghanistan that will save our collective asses. This is why - as Blair knows very well - we need Americans on side at this specific time.
Maybe in the near future, it will be China, of course.
So, I believe strongly in technology to save us from cancer, famine, war, extinction and other dangers. Only technology will take us to outer space as Prof Hawkin pointed out in his last speech.
Thus far, the U.S. still has the monopoly on technology, followed by Japan and Europe (China coming up). The U.S. still remains a very big player - even in cycling.

Afghanistan is a dry arid location.

But if you're a student of history, you'd know that Afghanistan was always the subject of interest for imperial powers.
The last foreign ruler to conquer Afghanistan was Alexander.
You would also be aware that Afghan history provided one of the largest empires in human history - that of Genghis Khan.

Since then every other invader has had their arse kicked as SB says.

The Russians were on the receiving end prior to 1840.
In 1842, the Britis were booted out of Afghanistan - Capt Connolly and Colonel Stoddart were beheaded and only one Brit was allowed to leave alive.
by Emir Nasrullah.

Afghanistan is of particular interest as a strategic location.
Proximity to the Kyber Pass : a country bordering India, gateway to the Middle East from the Orient, Afghanistan is strategiclly well placed.

Technology is useless in the type of fight underway in Afghanistan now.
That's why NATO are requesting bodies on the ground.
This fight won't be won through technology.

Technology is everything. It's the countries that own technology that will decide the future. O.K., we all know the U.S. is far from perfect but, if nothing else, Americans had the good sense to invest in foreign skills to take them forward, while Britain didn't do so. Britain lost many of its best scientists to the U.S. because the U.S. invested higher money to keep ahead.
Like it or lump it, the U.S. still leads the world in technology. If a huge chunk of rock ever threatens our planet and has to be taken out somehow, it's not Iran or Afghanistan that will save our collective asses. This is why - as Blair knows very well - we need Americans on side at this specific time.
Maybe in the near future, it will be China, of course.
So, I believe strongly in technology to save us from cancer, famine, war, extinction and other dangers. Only technology will take us to outer space as Prof Hawkin pointed out in his last speech.
Thus far, the U.S. still has the monopoly on technology, followed by Japan and Europe (China coming up). The U.S. still remains a very big player - even in cycling.


I am a fan of technology too.

But technology won't win the war in Afghanistan.


You still haven't grasped the point.

A foreign soldier in a country - who may be in that country for the most noble of reasons - is still a foreigner.
And as such is regarded as an occupier.

They don't really need to be in Afghanistan. The Cold War was won by the better standard of living, not arms. Democracy can't be forced. So long as the Taliban have retreated, it's up to Afghans to grasp their opportunities now. Nobody can force them to do so at the point of a gun.

I am a fan of technology too.

But technology won't win the war in Afghanistan.


You still haven't grasped the point.

A foreign soldier in a country - who may be in that country for the most noble of reasons - is still a foreigner.
And as such is regarded as an occupier.

They don't really need to be in Afghanistan. The Cold War was won by the better standard of living, not arms. Democracy can't be forced. So long as the Taliban have retreated, it's up to Afghans to grasp their opportunities now. Nobody can force them to do so at the point of a gun.

Agreed!

can you prove that it has, Bill ?


I don't need to prove it...it was YOU who asserted that it had not..therefore the burden of proof is on you.





Five years is a long time Bill.
Too long.

Prove it Lim. A long time depends on your frame of reference....if you found out you were dying of cancer...would 5 years still be a long time? I didn't think so Lim.






Of itself it's a lot of money, Bill.

And additionally even more so, given that it failed to render the capture of Binladen in over 5 years.


Lim..Lim...Lim...pay attention. Until you can prove that Bin Laden hasn't been captured you can't say that he hasn't because you don't know...at least that's the logic you and the other America haters used on me...so that would work in reverse too right Lim?





Can you prove that you have captured him ? You said earlier that he was living in a cave.
Which is it - capture or cave?


Lim...Lim...Lim....I concede that I don't know if he is living in a cave.....I feel like I should be writing these posts in crayon and using pictures for you.

You say he hasn't been captured.....how do you know? Do you have any proof?






Can you prove that the US captured Binladen?

You told us earlier that you knew that Binladen was living in a cave..........
You're contradicting yourself, Bill.


We covered this...again....Lim.





'Cause Sept 11th happened Bill.

Exactly why we are on the offensive....so it doesn't happen again. Tough concept I know....Lim.





No crystal ball needed, Bill.
Just need to look at the amount of money your country is spending on trying to securitise itself, and the other money spent on a war in Iraq and the other money spent on a war in Afghanistan.



That isn't proof. You can't speak for George Bush or even for an American. In our country....you kind of don't count. So unless you do have a crystal ball then you can't speak for us....Lim.



Yes I do Bill.



The money spent by your country in "the war on terror" isn't speculation, Bill.
$300 billion in Iraq.
$4.2 billion in Afgahistan.
Hundreds of million spent on aurport security in the USA.
Hundreds of millions spent on manhours.

Not speculation at all Bill.


Do we make money on Iraq or lose it? We're sucking oil out of the ground and investing in defense stocks so maybe it's a profit center for us? So again..without proof Lim...you don't know.






No need to be able to read minds, Bill, or to be in attendance at meetings Bill.

The expenditure speaks volumes, Bill.
As do the lack of results too, Bill.


Well if you want to talk lack of results...Ireland could disappear tomorrow and the world wouldn't even notice.

Lim....by your own admission...without proof it simply isn't a fact and you should refrain from that practice. It's not like you....Lim.








..cause your country's enquiry told us that information was fabricated, Bill.


Some inquiries have told us that space aliens are living among us too.....so who do you believe?

Facts? I notice you have none.

Lim.





No.

Are you, Bill?





Indeed, Bill.

Bill, as for parroting, the expenditure numbers are provided by your country's Treasury Dept, dodo or otherwise.




You don't, Bill.





Bill.....I've been on topic.




I'm not being difficult, Bill.




So what d'ya call $4.2 billion spent, with, err, no result, Bill?





Yep.
US Treasury tome, Bill.





...........and result of all that expenditure is Bill?




Bill, you first accused other people of being retarded - that is retarded, Bill




....and you were the first to rush to judgement, Bill.




None of your points have been proven, Bill.




Bill, I've been on topic all along. Bill.
Blah...blah...blah. Lim.

Afghanistan is a dry arid location.

But if you're a student of history, you'd know that Afghanistan was always the subject of interest for imperial powers.
The last foreign ruler to conquer Afghanistan was Alexander.
You would also be aware that Afghan history provided one of the largest empires in human history - that of Genghis Khan.

Since then every other invader has had their arse kicked as SB says.

The Russians were on the receiving end prior to 1840.
In 1842, the Britis were booted out of Afghanistan - Capt Connolly and Colonel Stoddart were beheaded and only one Brit was allowed to leave alive.
by Emir Nasrullah.

Afghanistan is of particular interest as a strategic location.
Proximity to the Kyber Pass : a country bordering India, gateway to the Middle East from the Orient, Afghanistan is strategiclly well placed.

Technology is useless in the type of fight underway in Afghanistan now.
That's why NATO are requesting bodies on the ground.
This fight won't be won through technology.
Lim...the fight was won. We came...we saw....we conquered.....we realized their wasn't anything there worth anything....we left.

It's pretty simple....the conquering took about a week.

Tough customers those Afghans.

:rolleyes:

I don't need to prove it...it was YOU who asserted that it had not..therefore the burden of proof is on you.


It hasn't been claimed.




Prove it Lim. A long time depends on your frame of reference....if you found out you were dying of cancer...would 5 years still be a long time? I didn't think so Lim.

Prove it Bill.
A long time does depend on your frame of reference.
But we're not talking cancer, Bill.
We're talking about the attempts to capture your country's most wanted fugitive.

One day can be a long time in a given reference
Five years is an even longer time.
Especially for your country's number 1 fugitive to remain free, Bill.




Lim..Lim...Lim...pay attention. Until you can prove that Bin Laden hasn't been captured you can't say that he hasn't because you don't know...at least that's the logic you and the other America haters used on me...so that would work in reverse too right Lim?


Bill...Bill...Bill.... pay attention.
You yourself asserted that Binladen was living in a cave two days ago.
So you accept that he is alive.

Why would you post a statement that you don't believe in, Bill?



Lim...Lim...Lim....I concede that I don't know if he is living in a cave.....I feel like I should be writing these posts in crayon and using pictures for you.



Bill...Bill...Bill....you now concede that you could be wrong and that Binladen might not live in a cave.

No crayons needed Bill.





You say he hasn't been captured.....how do you know? Do you have any proof?



Have you proof that he has been captured?
Can you proof that the $25m bounty has been claimed for the US's number 1 fugitive?





Exactly why we are on the offensive....so it doesn't happen again. Tough concept I know....Lim.



Bit late for that.



Do we make money on Iraq or lose it? We're sucking oil out of the ground and investing in defense stocks so maybe it's a profit center for us? So again..without proof Lim...you don't know.


Actually oil production has dropped in Iraq prior to 17th March 2003 levels.
Total production has dropped from 4m barrels per day to 1.5m barrels per day.

The cost of Iraq far outweighs the benefit Bill.





Well if you want to talk lack of results...Ireland could disappear tomorrow and the world wouldn't even notice.



I never made any claims about my country.

You made claims about your country - that's the subject matter, Bill.
The claims you made are being disputed.

Need to pay closer attention Bill.







Some inquiries have told us that space aliens are living among us too.....so who do you believe?



Suggest you stick with trying to resolve the foreign national aliens first, Bill - as you seem to be finding this entire topic quite difficult.







Blah...blah...blah.

Your most insightful contribution, thus far, Bill.