Fidel Castro

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i don't know. it was 8 years or so ago. i'm sure they did it because they were unavailable there at the time.

I'm sure that bibles were available to anyone who wanted one in 1998.

i'm sure you would know better than the two of them and the organization they worked with. :rolleyes:

i'm sure you would know better than the two of them and the organization they worked with. :rolleyes:It certainly looks that way.The bible was the best-selling book at the International Book Fair in 1992,1994,1996 and at the time the following link was posted,it was expected to be a best-seller in 1998...which was the time you say your sister had to "smuggle" bibles into Cuba.1998 was the year the Pope visited Cuba.
:Dhttp://www.biblesociety.org/wr_328/328_17.htm
Cuban People Hoping for Bibles

"Smuggling" bibles? Nah. :D

It certainly looks that way.The bible was the best-selling book at the International Book Fair in 1992,1994,1996 and at the time the following link was posted,it was expected to be a best-seller in 1998...which was the time you say your sister had to "smuggle" bibles into Cuba.1998 was the year the Pope visited Cuba.
:Dhttp://www.biblesociety.org/wr_328/328_17.htm
Cuban People Hoping for Bibles

"Smuggling" bibles? Nah. :Dnah? so you're saying that either all of the organizations that smuggle bibles into cuba didn't know they didn't have to or....what? i'm not exactly sure either but i'm certainly not going to dismiss the entire effort after a 30 second google search.

Exactly.What percentage of americans...
a)Believe in the Rapture?
b)Were disappointed when the Rapture didn't occur in 2000?

I was chatting to a couple of american mormons once.They had been in australia 2 weeks.They were quite confused...I got the definite impression that they thought they were in England... :D

PS...0.1 of a second...161 000 hits... :D

Exactly.What percentage of americans...
a)Believe in the Rapture?
b)Were disappointed when the Rapture didn't occur in 2000?

I was chatting to a couple of american mormons once.They had been in australia 2 weeks.They were quite confused...I got the definite impression that they thought they were in England... :D

PS...0.1 of a second... :Dooookkkayyy then. now that any hope of a reasonable dialog has been erased, i will take my leave of this discussion.

...american sailors who thought australia was a coral atoll and sydney(pop 4.5 million) was a collection of grass huts...marines who thought I was from new york...where none of them had ever been (to the great amusement of the us navy guys).
I'm not making any of this up. :D

Lighten up Wurm....you take yourself waaaay too seriously.

As for critical thinking......good advice. Hate clouds most peoples thinking.....think about that Wurm.Think about why you are such a stupid, gullible person. While you're at it, try to think of a better thing to oppose than the current takeover of the US by the fascist Bush Admin. and their friends in Congress.

Yes, I do take that seriously.

you're right. you can't. because that would require a bit of objectivity.



I don't know if America has great medical schools.
Not really an issue either way.



are you serious? personal freedom? as in...they're free to do and say exactly what castro says or they can rot in jail? lol. tell that to my sister who has spent time smuggling bibles into the country.

I am serious.

I'm sure that bibles were available to anyone who wanted one in 1998.

Maybe the Cubans quarantined Pope John Paul II Bible - when he visited Cuba eight years ago.

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/cuba.pope

I don't know if America has great medical schools.
Not really an issue either way.

right. you have no idea whether or not one of the biggest and most powerful nations in the world has any great medical schools. one might hazard a guess that we do. :rolleyes:

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm
U.S. Executions Since 1976
Were any of these people political prisoners executed for disagreeing with the government? Or for actual crimes like murder?

"5 000-12 000" over 47 years is hardly a lot.
That's 106-255 deaths per year.Not a lot considering that for all of that time Cuba has been under covert attack by extreme right-wingers sponsored by the US. Take a look at Haiti where the notorious Papa "Doc" Duvalier is estimated to have killed 30 000 over a similar period.Take a look at Nicaragua,Guatemala,El Salvador,Dominican Republic,Panama,Chile,Brazil,Bolivia,Paraguay,Argentina,Colombia...all of which have murdered dissidents and all of whom have had right-wing governments whose Death Squads were armed,trained and financed by the US.And that's just Central and South America.
You conveniently chose to ignore all of that,and the reason is obvious...Cuba has a left-wing government,and that's your real bone of contention...isn't it?
Actually,I never mentioned Cuban dissidents.As for your statement that people are allowed to say or think what they want...what would be the likely result if I were to say any of the above in a state with the history of violence that Florida has?
Stating that the US has no dissidents is nonsense.Kent State,Waco,The Black Panthers,the Civil Rights Movement,the Anti Vietnam War Movement? The US has a long record when it comes to dissidents...what do you think the millions of people who died in US wars of aggression over the last 100 years were?
The US Coast Guard enforces US government policy and that policy is to return anyone captured on their way to America.Either the US government does not consider these economic refugees are at risk or they are complicit in the "brutal" repression that you claim.You can't have it both ways.
I stand by my original statement.On balance,Castro has been a good president for Cuba based on his record of improving child mortality and providind the best doctors and medical care possible,in spite of the US government sanctions which make it illegal for you to go and see for yourself...as Lim did.I also could visit Cuba if I so chose...in the Land of the Free...you get arrested.
Try reading another perspective about US policy in the region,written by a USMC General,twice decorated with the Congressional Medal of Honour and the most popular soldier in the Usa at the time writing.It was written in 1933,but it remains true today.Nothing's changed.
http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm
Smedley Butler on Interventionism
"5 000-12 000" over 47 years is hardly a lot.

This statement proves what an unbelievably intellectually dishonest hypocrite you are. What is your personal threshold of "a lot" of executions by a communist country. Or any dictatorship? I mean, how many political executions would be considered immoral by you? More than 30,000? Less?
Take a look at Haiti where the notorious Papa "Doc" Duvalier is estimated to have killed 30 000 over a similar period.Take a look at Nicaragua,Guatemala,El Salvador,Dominican Republic,Panama,Chile,Brazil,Bolivia,Paraguay,Argentina,Colombia...all of which have murdered dissidents and all of whom have had right-wing governments whose Death Squads were armed,trained and financed by the US.And that's just Central and South America.
You conveniently chose to ignore all of that,and the reason is obvious...Cuba has a left-wing government,and that's your real bone of contention...isn't it?

What did I ignore? We are talking about Cuba. The title of the thread is "Fidel Castro." You and Lim admire him. I challenged that. You told me I had no facts to present an argument that Fidel is an evil pig. I presented some facts.

I don't really grade on a curve as regards dictatorships. I have not said other types of dictatorships are acceptable; nor do I rate them in order of number of executions. You are the one who can't cope with the truth about Cuba because it has a left-wing "government." You are the one who goes on moral diatribes about right-wing governments, yet refuses to condemn the same behavior in a communist one. I would call that morally bankrupt.
Actually,I never mentioned Cuban dissidents:

Yes, you did. I asked you about Cuban dissidents, and you said "As for dissidents --stop parroting nonsense." I presented you with facts about current Cuban dissidents from Human Rights Watch, which you refuse to acknowledge.

As for your statement that people are allowed to say or think what they want...what would be the likely result if I were to say any of the above in a state with the history of violence that Florida has?

There is a difference between the State arresting you and putting you in prison for those comments, and a private citizen beating the crap out of you because you're an a**hole. The good news is, in Florida, if he killed you, at least we would execute him for murder. Does that make you feel better?

Stating that the US has no dissidents is nonsense.Kent State,Waco,The Black Panthers,the Civil Rights Movement,the Anti Vietnam War Movement? The US has a long record when it comes to dissidents...what do you think the millions of people who died in US wars of aggression over the last 100 years were?

The people who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement and the Anti Vietnam War Movement 30 to 40 years ago are not languishing in prison. They are in the United States Congress, Senate, and Supreme Court, and of course Hollywood. They have been elected President. Have you ever heard of Bill Clinton? Many of them have become rich and famous by exploiting their "dissident" persona. Have you ever heard of Jesse Jackson?

The US Coast Guard enforces US government policy and that policy is to return anyone captured on their way to America.

That is not the policy. They are interviewed and a determination is made on whether they are expressly political refugees, or economic refugees. And yes, economic refugees are turned back, because they have to apply for a visa like everyone else on the long list of countries that oppress people, many of whom we accept through legal immigration. We don't have anything handy like the Pacific Solution, where we could just detain them on some other island indefinitely like Australia does.

Either the US government does not consider these economic refugees are at risk or they are complicit in the "brutal" repression that you claim.You can't have it both ways.

I am not trying to have it both ways. I am not the US government. I am a person challenging the validity of your claims that Cuba is a good place to live with a good leader.

You seem to be making some kind of case that the "brutal" repression that I "claim" cannot be true if we don't take in every person off the seas. I am not "claiming" anything. I have presented concrete evidence that Fidel Castro is a brutal, repressive dictator irregardless of immigration policy.

Your analysis of the evidence seems to be that it's not enough to convince you. 5,000 - 12,000 political executions doesn't rise to the level of repression in your book. The dissidents that you keep ignoring don't really seem to matter much to you either. The Black Panthers are far more relevant to current events in your mind.
I stand by my original statement.On balance,Castro has been a good president for Cuba based on his record of improving child mortality and providind the best doctors and medical care possible.

On balance? Improving child mortality (while simultaneously having one of the highest abortion rates in the world) and providing medical care (though not to people in prison, especially political prisoners) cannot be achieved without a brutal repressive regime? Why can't Castro do all his good deeds without brutality? I think your sense of "balance" needs an adjustment.

Obviously, to argue facts with someone who does not care about facts is a waste of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._foreign_interventions_since_1945
List of United States military history events - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ahh so any event that the US is involved in is a US war of aggression?

Arguing with you is pointless as you have your mind made up. Hate away hater....it apparently is what you live for.

Think about why you are such a stupid, gullible person. While you're at it, try to think of a better thing to oppose than the current takeover of the US by the fascist Bush Admin. and their friends in Congress.

Yes, I do take that seriously.
Whew...wrapped too tight and a few screws loose apparently.

Hate on man.....hate on...all you can do is insult so you are showing your maturity level.

"5 000-12 000" over 47 years is hardly a lot.

This statement proves what an unbelievably intellectually dishonest hypocrite you are. What is your personal threshold of "a lot" of executions by a communist country. Or any dictatorship? I mean, how many political executions would be considered immoral by you? More than 30,000? Less?
Take a look at Haiti where the notorious Papa "Doc" Duvalier is estimated to have killed 30 000 over a similar period.Take a look at Nicaragua,Guatemala,El Salvador,Dominican Republic,Panama,Chile,Brazil,Bolivia,Paraguay,Argentina,Colombia...all of which have murdered dissidents and all of whom have had right-wing governments whose Death Squads were armed,trained and financed by the US.And that's just Central and South America.
You conveniently chose to ignore all of that,and the reason is obvious...Cuba has a left-wing government,and that's your real bone of contention...isn't it?

What did I ignore? We are talking about Cuba. The title of the thread is "Fidel Castro." You and Lim admire him. I challenged that. You told me I had no facts to present an argument that Fidel is an evil pig. I presented some facts.

I don't really grade on a curve as regards dictatorships. I have not said other types of dictatorships are acceptable; nor do I rate them in order of number of executions. You are the one who can't cope with the truth about Cuba because it has a left-wing "government." You are the one who goes on moral diatribes about right-wing governments, yet refuses to condemn the same behavior in a communist one. I would call that morally bankrupt.
Actually,I never mentioned Cuban dissidents:

Yes, you did. I asked you about Cuban dissidents, and you said "As for dissidents --stop parroting nonsense." I presented you with facts about current Cuban dissidents from Human Rights Watch, which you refuse to acknowledge.

As for your statement that people are allowed to say or think what they want...what would be the likely result if I were to say any of the above in a state with the history of violence that Florida has?

There is a difference between the State arresting you and putting you in prison for those comments, and a private citizen beating the crap out of you because you're an a**hole. The good news is, in Florida, if he killed you, at least we would execute him for murder. Does that make you feel better?

Stating that the US has no dissidents is nonsense.Kent State,Waco,The Black Panthers,the Civil Rights Movement,the Anti Vietnam War Movement? The US has a long record when it comes to dissidents...what do you think the millions of people who died in US wars of aggression over the last 100 years were?

The people who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement and the Anti Vietnam War Movement 30 to 40 years ago are not languishing in prison. They are in the United States Congress, Senate, and Supreme Court, and of course Hollywood. They have been elected President. Have you ever heard of Bill Clinton? Many of them have become rich and famous by exploiting their "dissident" persona. Have you ever heard of Jesse Jackson?

The US Coast Guard enforces US government policy and that policy is to return anyone captured on their way to America.

That is not the policy. They are interviewed and a determination is made on whether they are expressly political refugees, or economic refugees. And yes, economic refugees are turned back, because they have to apply for a visa like everyone else on the long list of countries that oppress people, many of whom we accept through legal immigration. We don't have anything handy like the Pacific Solution, where we could just detain them on some other island indefinitely like Australia does.



I am not trying to have it both ways. I am not the US government. I am a person challenging the validity of your claims that Cuba is a good place to live with a good leader.

You seem to be making some kind of case that the "brutal" repression that I "claim" cannot be true if we don't take in every person off the seas. I am not "claiming" anything. I have presented concrete evidence that Fidel Castro is a brutal, repressive dictator irregardless of immigration policy.

Your analysis of the evidence seems to be that it's not enough to convince you. 5,000 - 12,000 political executions doesn't rise to the level of repression in your book. The dissidents that you keep ignoring don't really seem to matter much to you either. The Black Panthers are far more relevant to current events in your mind.


On balance? Improving child mortality (while simultaneously having one of the highest abortion rates in the world) and providing medical care (though not to people in prison, especially political prisoners) cannot be achieved without a brutal repressive regime? Why can't Castro do all his good deeds without brutality? I think your sense of "balance" needs an adjustment.

Obviously, to argue facts with someone who does not care about facts is a waste of time.Cuba and Castro do not exist in isolation.To decide whether Castro is an "evil pig",Cuba must be looked at in a wider context by comparing Cuba to other countries in the region and in the world.In that context Castro comes off much better than other leaders in the region.If his government has saved more children's lives than have been lost in a long-running war against terrorism,then on balance he has been good for Cubans.If a simple utilitarian principle (The greatest good for the greatest number) is applied to Castro's rule...then according to that test,if more lives were saved than ended, it was morally the best result for Cubans.
That isn't just my view.It was the US secretary of State,Madeleine Albright,who when asked about the deaths of 500 000 Iraqui children as a result of sanctions,infamously said "We think the price was worth it." I can remember seeing that interview on tv at the time.It's unlikely that I will ever see it again as the US State Dept. put pressure on the "60 Minutes" producers.It has never been shown since.
So yes,I think the price was worth it.
As for political prisoners in Cuba...Amnesty International (the most respected human rights organisation in the world) says that there are 70 political prisoners in Cuba,that many have been released and that no executions (for any crime) have been carried out since 1998.If you can explain the difference between executing someone in custody and executing someone by B-52s or cruise missiles then I would really like to know.It's been well documented that the US government has for many years armed ,trained and financed death squads and torturers in Central and South America (and all around the world) so in any comparison Castro looks positively benign.
"Beating the crap" out of someone for having opposing political views...would that be a good example the right to dissent?
Abortion rates are high in most third world countries.It's irrelevant anyway.
With regard to medical care in Cuba's prisons...how does it compare to medical care in the secret prisons operated iin many countries by the US government?
Why can't Castro do all his good deeds without brutality? Because the US has been at war with Cuba for 47 years...and all wars are brutal.Castro's Cuba does not exist in some sort of moral bubble.To judge him,he must be compared to the rest or the world.He has certainly been responsible for far fewer deaths than the US.

Whew...wrapped too tight and a few screws loose apparently.

Hate on man.....hate on...all you can do is insult so you are showing your maturity level."Hate on"?? :confused: :rolleyes: LOL! If that's all you've got in response to the truth surrounding the criminal conduct of your Repig heroes, then it's quite obvious that you have no other defense for it. As usual, you are the typical GOP-supporting, right-wing moonbat that has no use for the actual facts.

FYI, here are some examples of what I "hate". The question is: which (if any) of these have you ever or do you now oppose?


~ Hiroshima?
~ Nagasaki?
~ Overthrow of Iran's Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh in 1952? The installation of the murderous Shah of Iran, 'King of Kings' and 'Light of the Aryans'? ~ The brutishly savage 'SAVAK' secret police, American trained?
~ The 'School of the Americas' Coup and Torture College?
~ Vietnam?
~ Cambodia?
~ Laos?
~ Operation Phoenix (25,000-50,000 murdered)?
~ Nixon/Kissinger coup against democratically elected government of Chile?
~ Nixon/Kissinger assistance to Greek junta?
~ Invasion of Grenada?
~ Invasion of Panama?
~ Iran-Contra fiasco? Dirty war against Guatemala?
Dirty war against Nicaragua?
~ Reagan's nun-butchering 'Freedom Fighters' of Nicaragua?
~ Dirty war in El Salvador?
~ Reagan's good friendship with the likes of President 'Blowtorch Bob' of El Salvador?
~ Gulf War I?
~ Depleted Uranium?
~ George H.W. Bush's 'Highway of Death'?
~ Invasion of Afghanistan?
~ Destruction of infrastructure in Afghanistan?
~ Bagram?
~ Gulf War II?
~ The vilification of Islam? Shock and Awe?
~ The destruction of infrastructure in Iraq?
~ The use of cluster bombs?
~ 500 pound bombs?
~ The use of white phosphorus?
~ The bombing of ambulances and hospitals? Falluja?
~ Haditha?
~ 50-100,000 dead Iraqi civilians?
~ Abu Ghraib?
~ Secret prisons?
~ Extraordinary renditions?
~ Torture?
~ Virtual suspension of the American Constitution?
~ The imposition of American economic policies on third-world countries?
~ Abrogation of international treaties governing nuclear non-proliferation, first strike use, etc.?
Rampant American triumphalism, racism, ignorance and arrogance?
~ Blatant hypocrisy regarding non-existent American "values" of freedom and democracy ?


No amount of lies, distortion, diversion, delusion, or personal attacks can deny that any of the above actually took place.

The question is not rhetorical.

Cuba and Castro do not exist in isolation.To decide whether Castro is an "evil pig",Cuba must be looked at in a wider context by comparing Cuba to other countries in the region and in the world.In that context Castro comes off much better than other leaders in the region.If his government has saved more children's lives than have been lost in a long-running war against terrorism,then on balance he has been good for Cubans.If a simple utilitarian principle (The greatest good for the greatest number) is applied to Castro's rule...then according to that test,if more lives were saved than ended, it was morally the best result for Cubans.
That isn't just my view.It was the US secretary of State,Madeleine Albright,who when asked about the deaths of 500 000 Iraqui children as a result of sanctions,infamously said "We think the price was worth it." I can remember seeing that interview on tv at the time.It's unlikely that I will ever see it again as the US State Dept. put pressure on the "60 Minutes" producers.It has never been shown since.
So yes,I think the price was worth it.
As for political prisoners in Cuba...Amnesty International (the most respected human rights organisation in the world) says that there are 70 political prisoners in Cuba,that many have been released and that no executions (for any crime) have been carried out since 1998.If you can explain the difference between executing someone in custody and executing someone by B-52s or cruise missiles then I would really like to know.It's been well documented that the US government has for many years armed ,trained and financed death squads and torturers in Central and South America (and all around the world) so in any comparison Castro looks positively benign.
"Beating the crap" out of someone for having opposing political views...would that be a good example the right to dissent?
Abortion rates are high in most third world countries.It's irrelevant anyway.
With regard to medical care in Cuba's prisons...how does it compare to medical care in the secret prisons operated iin many countries by the US government?
Why can't Castro do all his good deeds without brutality? Because the US has been at war with Cuba for 47 years...and all wars are brutal.Castro's Cuba does not exist in some sort of moral bubble.To judge him,he must be compared to the rest or the world.He has certainly been responsible for far fewer deaths than the US.If his government has saved more children's lives than have been lost in a long-running war against terrorism,then on balance he has been good for Cubans. I am curious as to where you get this information. Please post a link to statistics about child mortality in Cuba.


If a simple utilitarian principle (The greatest good for the greatest number) is applied to Castro's rule...then according to that test, if more lives were saved than ended, it was morally the best result for Cubans. If you are going to apply that utlilitarian principle, then you have to apply it to the United States as well. :eek: If killing less than 300 million people in the war against terrorism protects 300 million US citizens from terrorism, then it is morally the best result for Americans. Since terrorists have stated that they would like to destroy Western civilization, then I suppose we can kill as many people as we like and still be beneath the number of people who would benefit. Or does that go country by country? Like, Britain can kill only less than their population, America theirs, etc.? Or can we just add up all the countries and use that number?

Furthermore, the US has done more good for more people than what it has done wrong to people. We both know that you will not agree with that, and I don't have time to write a dissertation about it. We will be here until doomsday cataloging (sp) what was good vs. what was bad, and the definition of good and bad, to infinity and beyond.

If you can explain the difference between executing someone in custody and executing someone by B-52s or cruise missiles then I would really like to know. . The first example is someone being killed by his own government. The second example is being killed by an enemy with whom you are at war. That's the difference. Are Cuba's citizens a viable enemy of the Cuban government? Civilian casualties, which occur in every single war, are not intended, and I submit we could actually win some wars if we weren't so squeamish about it. Greatest good for greatest number, and all. And of course, cowardly enemies like to hide around civilians, but I never hear you condemn the use of human shields, something else the US does not do.

Cuba must be looked at in a wider context by comparing Cuba to other countries in the region and in the world./It's been well documented that the US government has for many years armed ,trained and financed death squads and torturers in Central and South America (and all around the world) so in any comparison Castro looks positively benign. Why do you never mention communist killers and torturers in your quest for comparative ethics? Who are the death squads and torturers fighting? Why? As you say, they are not in a bubble. Since Castro is communist, wouldn't it make more sense to compare with other communist tyrants, um, leaders? He is lower on the scale than Mao or Stalin, but he does the same things for the same reasons, just to fewer people.

"Beating the crap" out of someone for having opposing political views...would that be a good example the right to dissent? Grow up, I was just kidding. Do you have any evidence to suggest people in South Florida are being assaulted for their political views? No, they are assaulted for the regular things, like money for drugs, or just for the hell of it. Nor will you find yourself incarcerated in Florida for being an a**hole.

With regard to medical care in Cuba's prisons...how does it compare to medical care in the secret prisons operated iin many countries by the US government? You will have to post more concrete information for me to respond about the "secret" prisons. As for medical care in America's non-secret prisons, it is pretty good. Prisoners in the US can even get Viagra, for free. Well, it's not free really, because the taxpayers are paying for inmate Viagra. I just mentioned that because you and Lim are so excited about the great medical care in Cuba, which I have to take his word for just because he went there. He has not posted any corroborating material. Anyway, you don't get ANY medical care if you are in prison there, which I would assume you to be against, but I guess not. That's another "so what?" in your book. BTW it is the political prisoners who are the most abused in this regard.

Why can't Castro do all his good deeds without brutality? Because the US has been at war with Cuba for 47 years...and all wars are brutal..
The U.S. is causing Castro to be brutal to his own people? You are out of your mind.