Q on L6 intervals

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Hi,

I've been doing Hunter Allen's prebuilt Threshold Improvement program for about a month now, and I did 6x2min AC (L6) intervals according to the program.

Currently I don't have an indoor trainer so I chose a short steepish hill near my home. The slope is steepest right after the start, and gets a little easier, then there is a nearly flat section around three quarters up the hill. You can see it in my power curve below, where the power output drops sharply no matter how hard I try to compensate for the decrease in the grade by shifting up and going harder.

http://us.f13.yahoofs.com/bc/44c457db_dcbb/bc/power/Graph+of+L6+intervals.png?bfwuFxEBMRQhkFk3

My target average power for this session was 286watts (130% of 220watts), and power values for the six intervals above are:

min max ave (NP)
1st: 150 462 319 (330) <- started out too hard
2nd: 160 409 294 (286)
3rd: 160 417 292 (283)
4th: 127 388 289 (285) <- power drop during the flat section went uncheked
5th: 202 429 292 (283) <- tried to compensate for the flat section
6th: 188 381 286 (281) <- same as 5th

I can see my average for the interval dropping significantly when I reach this section of the road although I put my PowerTap computer in average power mode, so I have to go much harder for the last 5-10 seconds to stay in my target.

My question is: with power momentarily dropping down to L4 or even L3 levels during the work period, can these be considered 2min L6 intervals? Or should they be considered shorter intervals at higher training levels?

Should I look for another hill with more consistent grade? (not a "get a trainer" advice, please :D I'm saving for it and eventually get one, hopefully)

TIA,

Ken

I can't view the picture but probably that's my internet connection.

My WAG is that one should vary the places where you do these intervals anyways because ( even though one should strive for repeatability):
a.) don't want workouts to get stale from doing the same location over and over.
b.) unlikely you will get to choose the terrain when you will have to do such an effort during a race so just getting used to different cadences/gearing (due to different hills/flat) for this is good practice.

The other thing I have done is mixed up the cadences a bit - after doing intervals at one location, take a look at the recorded cadence and try to mix things up a bit up and down at the same location.

Thanks for the comments, and sorry about the wrong URL for the pic. How's this now?

http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/%7Eciclista/img/20060723_L6int.png

As for your comments, I'll try to reply later... still at work now:D

I have stopped looking at average for intervals because for me, I had trouble maintaining it within a range without the exact number staring me in the face - the current number in front of me is a better carrot with shorter, harder efforts.
I know for some climbs I have to switch from small ring to big ring to maintain cadence and power for flat sections, this may be too disruptive for a short effort like this, not sure how much shifting you are doing.

A couple of comments. One, you are definitely doing L6s. Even the first one is an L6 (although probably not 120s), even though you continuously dropped your power throughout the effort. Two, you could probably sustain the efforts for a longer duration by riding them at a more constant power. By starting out hard and dying throughout the interval (even with a surge at the end), you are shortening the total duration you sustain the effort at L6 pace. As Woofer suggested, you might want to try riding them with current power on your computer display because you will be less likely to overcook it at the outset and you will know instantly when your power drops below L6 pace (121%FTP). The reason your power is dropping when the grade flattens is that your leg muscles are tired from the initial effort and they will seize any opportunity to rest. If you ride them with current power, you can gear up when you hit the flat sections and maintain power above the L6 floor. If you find you can't gear up and keep power up, then you started out too hard and you're cooked. It's no big deal, it's just no longer a 120s L6 interval. Maybe it's 60s or 90s. Finally, I ignore NP for efforts of this duration. AP is the better measure of intensity.

Agree, stop looking at average power display.

Don't worry about 5-10 watts difference in intervals, that is a sneeze.

Find a better course. If you have a longer hill with a steadier grade, climb 2 minutes up it and then turn around when finished. You can also do these quite handily on the flats.

Are you purposely doing these in a lower cadence? You can also mix up the interval session by doing them at 110 rpm on the flats. If Force is your limiter and you're working on climbing, great.

Pardon the dumb question but how is your Normalized Power actually *less* than your average power?

--Steve

Pardon the dumb question but how is your Normalized Power actually *less* than your average power?It is unusual, but it can happen if the duration is short and power is highly variable. It is due to the 30s averaging in the NP computation. But, for AWC intervals NP is not really the best measure of intensity anyway. I think Andy said a while back that he intends to not even compute NP for durations as short as 2mins in CP. I can't remember what he said the new cut-point will be, maybe 5mins?

OP, it's not really imperative to be going uphill in order to achieve L6 power -- you should be able to do this on the flat road as well. On the flatter section of that hill, try grabbing a couple cogs, getting out of the saddle and accelerating the bike into that final section of the hill. It'll hurt like hell, but you're going to have to get on top of that gear to keep power up on that section.

Just envision the end of a race, when you get to that flatter section and everyone's hoping to catch their breath, you launch out of the pack like a madman and hold the effort all the way to the top. :)

Thanks, guys.

I have stopped looking at average for intervals because for me, I had trouble maintaining it within a range without the exact number staring me in the faceInteresting. I was looking at average power because Hunter's plan specifically says so, but I find this more convincing so I'll do it this way next time.

It's no big deal, it's just no longer a 120s L6 interval. Maybe it's 60s or 90s.Understood. That's what I was afraid...

Finally, I ignore NP for efforts of this duration. AP is the better measure of intensity.Okay. I showed my NP values just in case.


Are you purposely doing these in a lower cadence?Well, I wish.:o I was grinding a granny gear. And yes, I'm mainly working on improving my climbing power.

it's not really imperative to be going uphill in order to achieve L6 power -- you should be able to do this on the flat road as well.Yes, I'm quite aware of that, but it's just that, the flat courses around here are mostly river-side bicycle/pedestrian roads (ironically so-called "cycling" roads but not really) which are always too crouded by pedestrians to concentrate on high intensity intervals without risking running into them. Even before six in the morning (mostly elder people taking a walk so I should be extra careful because their hearings might be impaired to varying degrees). OTOH, I don't get distracted by anyone on this hill, but I'll use another hill (somewhat easier than this one, but with much more steady grade).

On the flatter section of that hill, try grabbing a couple cogs, getting out of the saddle and accelerating the bike into that final section of the hill.Actually I tried to do that in the fifth and sixth intervals, but apparently I wasn't going hard enough.:(

Just envision the end of a race, when you get to that flatter section and everyone's hoping to catch their breath, you launch out of the pack like a madman and hold the effort all the way to the top. :)Thanks, I'll try that one next time.:)

Thanks again for all of your comments.

Ken

I'll use another hill (somewhat easier than this one, but with much more steady grade).The main benefit of doing high-intensity efforts on a climb is the consistency of resistance provided by having to overcome gravity. It's just easier to maintain power when you have a consistent resistance to overcome. But, it doesn't actually take much of a grade to provide this resistance. One of my favorite training routes is only 1.6% average grade, but it is almost always upwind into a 10-15mph wind and it's about 20 miles long. So, I can do any kind of high-intensity efforts I want to, including 40-70 minute L4 intervals. My AP and NP numbers are rarely more than 2-3 watts different.

One of my favorite training routes is only 1.6% average grade, but it is almost always upwind into a 10-15mph wind and it's about 20 miles long.I just envy you.:)

I just envy you.:)LOL. Actually, I have remarked in previous posts on this forum that those of us who are gifted with a variety of rides should be very thankful for what we have. In some parts of the country, they go to extremes like riding up high-rise parking lot ramps or go seek out highway overpasses for climbing. Whereas I have a whole huge array of options, from 1-5 mile climbs to 15-20 mile climbs. Same for the riders in California. They have an unbelievable array of routes. Lucky us.:D

One more thing I would like to add is that after you've done these a few times and get some race data, you may find that you are capable of doing much more than you thought you were doing. I found myself with a mental block to doing harder efforts solo until I saw I was doing harder efforts in races and was able to break through plateaus during training. You may also get the same effect from doing these efforts under different conditions and periods of rest/easy riding in the days before hand and set the bar higher for yourself and then come back to this location and find yourself able to force yourself to exceed what you thought was possible for yourself.

Not everyone has a great internal perceived exertion meter which is the primary reason I use current power instead of average power.

2min long L6 intervals. They must be a bit painful aren't they?

How do you feel doing these, Sugaken, and how much rest do you take between the reps?

I am just asking this as a curiosity...

BTW, Ken, I don't think 2mins at 286W will max out your AWC, but if you do max it out you will not be able to fully repeat the effort on the same day even with a significant rest duration between efforts. This is because only part of your energy for AWC efforts recovers (in the short term). So, if you held each effort to its maximum duration, you would see a continually declining duration with each effort (at the same constant power). The good news is that the part that does recover does so quickly (e.g., 95+% in ~3 mins). So, you go from feeling as though you can't turn the cranks one more revolution to being able to go again in a few minutes. Cool, huh?:D

Not all race situations will be going up a hill. Try them on the flats, working at that power level with high leg speed. Sprint strongly into the effort, wind it up, and hold it till ya puke. 1m30s is a good start.

BTW, Ken, I don't think 2mins at 286W will max out your AWC, but if you do max it out you will not be able to fully repeat the effort on the same day even with a significant rest duration between efforts.Come to think about it, I think I was too conservative in this workout. In the plan, Hunter says "do (6) x 2 minutes as hard as you can go" and "Stop when you can’t reach 118%FTP in your average" which aren't exactly what I did that day.

Tomorrow morning, I'll do 2-3 x 15min L4 efforts for which no hill around here is long enough so I'll have no choice but do them on the flats.

Ken

Come to think about it, I think I was too conservative in this workout.
That was kinda my thinking. 130%FT seems kinda low for L6, IMO, although I've never really done structured 2-min efforts. I'd probably shoot for at least 150% if you use any kind of target pacing.

That was kinda my thinking. 130%FT seems kinda low for L6, IMO, although I've never really done structured 2-min efforts. I'd probably shoot for at least 150% if you use any kind of target pacing.
Just FYI - I have managed 177% FTP for 6 x 1 min efforts at L6. Felt sick as a dog though... :o