Regarding Gaza

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I think that doing a Carthage deal and starting over from bottom up is the only way to go at this point.

Best wishes to Corpl. Shalit.

I think that doing a Carthage deal and starting over from bottom up is the only way to go at this point.


The best thing to do is for both sides to quit killing and negotiate full stop, however that simply won't happen because Olmert and his pals appear to think that all Palestinians are Terrorists and they have categorically stated that they won't negotiate with terrorists. :(


Best wishes to Corpl. Shalit.


Israel has to stop arresting, maiming and killing it's negotiating partners too. See Menachem Froman's recent peace efforts being quashed by Shin Bet.

Your post appears to be a bit one-sided, Darkboong. You start off by stating "both sides" should get their act together and then you go on to blame Israel (same as the U.N. has done). You left out the kidnappings by Palestinian militants and the constant rocket atacks.
I confess I did see the images of Palestinian civilians suffering hardship on the news last night and, of course, I felt sorry for their situation and I do think Israel should make sure the Red Cross is allowed access to Gaza to give essential aid. I accept your view Israel is often guilty of being heavy-handed but, as I said before, just look how the U.S. behaved in Serbia with the bombings of power plants, churches and even the Chinese Embassy! At that time the U.N. said nothing.
The problem from the Israeli perspective is they wanted to get out of Gaza and they did make concessions. The Palestinians could have made a decent attempt at running their own show. They would have received money from the U.N., business investment and all sorts of help. This would have led to a Palestinian State that Israel would have eventually recognised.
However, I think Palestinians made a terrible mistake electing Hamas. Rather than actually help the Palestinian people do something constructive, Hamas has been blinded by pure hatred of Israel, using foreign money to build rockets and digging tunnels across the border.
The problem with Hamas is their hatred of Israel is so deep-rooted they will never admit Israel has a historical, cultural history in the region and flatly refuse to compromise.
So, yes, I feel sorry for innocent Palestinians caught up in this crisis but I do think the kidnappings and rocket fire has to stop.



The best thing to do is for both sides to quit killing and negotiate full stop, however that simply won't happen because Olmert and his pals appear to think that all Palestinians are Terrorists and they have categorically stated that they won't negotiate with terrorists. :(



Israel has to stop arresting, maiming and killing it's negotiating partners too. See Menachem Froman's recent peace efforts being quashed by Shin Bet.

Your post appears to be a bit one-sided, Darkboong. You start off by stating "both sides" should get their act together and then you go on to blame Israel (same as the U.N. has done). You left out the kidnappings by Palestinian militants and the constant rocket atacks.


Have you looked into the Menachem Froman story yet Carrera ? Google is your friend...

By the same token you haven't mentioned the body count over the last 6 months, the number of artillery shells dropped on Gaza over the last 6 months, the number of bullets fired and the number of children *killed* in Gaza over the last 6 months. Or for that matter you haven't mentioned the millions of displaced and killed Palestinians if you want to go back to 1947.

You accuse me of being one-sided yet you consistently fail to mention any of that and you consistently fail to discuss or even recognise those basic facts.


I accept your view Israel is often guilty of being heavy-handed but, as I said before, just look how the U.S. behaved in Serbia with the bombings of power plants, churches and even the Chinese Embassy! At that time the U.N. said nothing.


The UN did say something, but the US vetoed any motions in the Security Council. As far as Israel murdering men, women, children and "militants" goes over the past few weeks/months/years the US has consistently supported them by vetoing UN censure, and repeatedly issuing statements to the tune of "Israel has the right to defend itself".

By contrast I can't recall either you (pwltp for that matter) endorsing the right of Palestinians to defend themselves. They need to because the state of Israel clearly fails to protect them. If the state of Israel was inclusive and adequately protected all of it's civillians we would not be having this argument (again).


The problem from the Israeli perspective is they wanted to get out of Gaza and they did make concessions.


What concessions precisely ? They took the land by force, and imprisoned over 40% of the male population in the first place.


The Palestinians could have made a decent attempt at running their own show. They would have received money from the U.N., business investment and all sorts of help.


That would have required Israel's co-operation to work. Israel has been shooting Palestinian policemen since the word go (you can't have law and order without an effective police force, a dead policeman is not an effective policeman). Israel has continued to attack government offices and officers since the word go. Israel has even undermined their preferred Palestinian leader (Abbas), they refused to make any kind of concession or even deal with him, and they never observed or even bothered to recognise the unilateral ceasefire that Abbas brokered.


The problem with Hamas is their hatred of Israel is so deep-rooted they will never admit Israel has a historical, cultural history in the region and flatly refuse to compromise.


That is categorically false. I have already provided plenty of evidence to the contrary. I can only conclude that you have chosen to ignore evidence because you wish to justify the mass torture and murder of Palestinians.


So, yes, I feel sorry for innocent Palestinians caught up in this crisis but I do think the kidnappings and rocket fire has to stop.


As of the 18th of June 2006:
"According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, IDF artillery fire has killed 47 Palestinians, including 11 children and five women, and injured 192 others since September 2005." - Taken from an ISM article.

Quite clearly the Israelis have to stop killing people as well. It's no good pretending it's a Palestinian only problem, the Israelis have been killing Palestinians before during and after the home made rockets started falling out of the skies.

It's always Peace when the Palestinians are dead with Sharon and Olmert, it's never Peace today.

"By contrast I can't recall either you (pwltp for that matter) endorsing the right of Palestinians to defend themselves."

I don't really accept that digging tunnels to carry out kidnappings is self-defence. I think we differ here. I believe the actions that led Israel to extreme measures can be summed up as banditry and terrorism. You appear to be likening defence to terrorism and I think the two concepts are different.

"By the same token you haven't mentioned the body count over the last 6 months, the number of artillery shells dropped on Gaza over the last 6 months, the number of bullets fired..."

Here you seem to be basing your argument on who has committed the worst sins rather than stating the actual violence perpretated by people as a whole is wrong. Again, I raise the point that you tend to keep quiet about Russia and Chechnya. The Russians declared every Chechnyan male over 16 as a terrorist - period. Israel hasn't been as heavy handed as Russia yet you seldom mention Russia?
So, you raised this post about Gaza but why not Chechnya or maybe, at least, some comparisons drawn with heavy handed army practices in other countries during conflict? How about Iraq and the Kurds that were attacked with chemical weapons, for example?
Nothing said. :confused:

"If the state of Israel was inclusive and adequately protected all of it's civillians we would not be having this argument (again)."

How is Israel going to include Hamas, that's the snag? Sure, it can include peaceful Palestinians but what about the terrorists? I read a Hamas declaration not so long ago which stated Hamas would attack Israel from within via suicide bombings. You can't simply throw borders open to those who hate you and claim you have no right to exist as a State.

"What concessions precisely ? They took the land by force, and imprisoned over 40% of the male population in the first place."

O.K. this is true. But where would Israelis be now without Israel? I've been accused of distorting the facts here but I still maintain Jewish people don't feel secure in France and some parts of Europe. On two occasions, the Israeli President has appealed to Jewish people to return to Israel from France. The French themselves even protested over the killing and kidnapping of a Jewish man in France. Also, did you notice the kidnapped soldier that triggered this current conflict has French/Jewish nationality, according to what I heard on the Beeb?
Whichever way you read it, Europe has a history of anti-semitism and the old ghosts may well be resurfacing. Maybe Israel wants to show Jewish people worldwide that you can persecute Jews in France but if you do it in Israel proper, there is retaliation.

"I can only conclude that you have chosen to ignore evidence because you wish to justify the mass torture and murder of Palestinians."

The problem is this: Although I take Israel's side on this matter, I don't base my argument on reciting to you various endless wrongs I think Hamas may have perpetrated. I mean, I can see rights and wrongs on both sides. I don't take the view Israel is 100 per cent just and the Palestinians are totally wrong.
Yet, your own arguments are emotional and less analytical. The debate consists of recitals of terrible wrongs committed by Israel and no mention of Hamas's rocket attacks e.t.c. There is no stepping back and looking at the problem as a complex issue based on culture, politics and history.





Have you looked into the Menachem Froman story yet Carrera ? Google is your friend...

By the same token you haven't mentioned the body count over the last 6 months, the number of artillery shells dropped on Gaza over the last 6 months, the number of bullets fired and the number of children *killed* in Gaza over the last 6 months. Or for that matter you haven't mentioned the millions of displaced and killed Palestinians if you want to go back to 1947.

You accuse me of being one-sided yet you consistently fail to mention any of that and you consistently fail to discuss or even recognise those basic facts.



The UN did say something, but the US vetoed any motions in the Security Council. As far as Israel murdering men, women, children and "militants" goes over the past few weeks/months/years the US has consistently supported them by vetoing UN censure, and repeatedly issuing statements to the tune of "Israel has the right to defend itself".

By contrast I can't recall either you (pwltp for that matter) endorsing the right of Palestinians to defend themselves. They need to because the state of Israel clearly fails to protect them. If the state of Israel was inclusive and adequately protected all of it's civillians we would not be having this argument (again).



What concessions precisely ? They took the land by force, and imprisoned over 40% of the male population in the first place.



That would have required Israel's co-operation to work. Israel has been shooting Palestinian policemen since the word go (you can't have law and order without an effective police force, a dead policeman is not an effective policeman). Israel has continued to attack government offices and officers since the word go. Israel has even undermined their preferred Palestinian leader (Abbas), they refused to make any kind of concession or even deal with him, and they never observed or even bothered to recognise the unilateral ceasefire that Abbas brokered.



That is categorically false. I have already provided plenty of evidence to the contrary. I can only conclude that you have chosen to ignore evidence because you wish to justify the mass torture and murder of Palestinians.



As of the 18th of June 2006:
"According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, IDF artillery fire has killed 47 Palestinians, including 11 children and five women, and injured 192 others since September 2005." - Taken from an ISM article.

Quite clearly the Israelis have to stop killing people as well. It's no good pretending it's a Palestinian only problem, the Israelis have been killing Palestinians before during and after the home made rockets started falling out of the skies.

It's always Peace when the Palestinians are dead with Sharon and Olmert, it's never Peace today.

...because Olmert and his pals appear to think that all Palestinians are Terrorists and they have categorically stated that they won't negotiate with terrorists. :(
Sounds like someone else we all know and hate...

"Yer either fer us er 'ginst us!" *smirk* *blink*

"By contrast I can't recall either you (pwltp for that matter) endorsing the right of Palestinians to defend themselves."

I don't really accept that digging tunnels to carry out kidnappings is self-defence.


They "kidnapped" a soldier, and man who would have otherwise been cruising around Gaza in a tank, quite probably shelling Palestinian civillians. Sounds like self defence to me, at the very least it is not as aggressive, indiscriminate or destructive as shelling the most densely populated area on Earth for the last 10 months with 155mm Howitzers. Please note that 155mm rounds have a dispersion radius of 370m and a kill zone (against people in body armor) of 50m, there is no way you can aim such an indiscriminate weapon at the most densely populated area on Earth without expecting to kill civillians.


I think we differ here. I believe the actions that led Israel to extreme measures can be summed up as banditry and terrorism. You appear to be likening defence to terrorism and I think the two concepts are different.


Attacking a heavily armed military target that has an active role in killing civillians is *not* terrorism, it is warfare. If they blew up a bus of school children I would class it as terrorism. Please explain to me why attacking military target is terrorism but shelling a bunch of families on a beach is not ?


"By the same token you haven't mentioned the body count over the last 6 months, the number of artillery shells dropped on Gaza over the last 6 months, the number of bullets fired..."

Here you seem to be basing your argument on who has committed the worst sins rather than stating the actual violence perpretated by people as a whole is wrong.


In actual fact I was responding to fact that you asserted that the Israeli's were provoked by an unprovoked attack. That simply doesn't make sense given the timeline of events and the context of occupation and sustained attack on the Palestinians and their land over the last 50 odd years.


The Russians declared every Chechnyan male over 16 as a terrorist - period.


Russia has been quite rightly censured for that, although it is of course endorsed by Israel and the US. Two countries that are hip deep in the blood of Muslims right now.


Israel hasn't been as heavy handed as Russia yet you seldom mention Russia?


Israel has been very heavy handed. Israel has expelled and killed over 2 million Palestinians. Israel even went to the trouble of setting up refugee camp massacres of unarmed women and children in Lebanon (Sabra/Shatilla). Israel is also substantially closer to home than Chechnya and I also think that it could be a very good place to build a bridge between the West and Islam as a whole. Chechnya simply does not register on my radar as strongly and I know far less about it, so I don't comment much, although I have pointed out (in opposition to you) that Russia has been particularly brutal and misguided in Chechnya. I was one of the guys who was hoping Lebed might actually persuede that nasty piece of vodka soaked shit, Yeltsin, to pursue peace rather than war.


So, you raised this post about Gaza but why not Chechnya or maybe, at least, some comparisons drawn with heavy handed army practices in other countries during conflict? How about Iraq and the Kurds that were attacked with chemical weapons, for example?
Nothing said. :confused:


I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar.


"If the state of Israel was inclusive and adequately protected all of it's civillians we would not be having this argument (again)."

How is Israel going to include Hamas, that's the snag? Sure, it can include peaceful Palestinians but what about the terrorists? I read a Hamas declaration not so long ago which stated Hamas would attack Israel from within via suicide bombings. You can't simply throw borders open to those who hate you and claim you have no right to exist as a State.


Israel doesn't make any distinction between "Peaceful" Palestinians and "Terrorists". The situation re: land ownership, travel rights, citizenship (particularly with mixed culture marriages) and the rest gives the lie to that. Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out.


"What concessions precisely ? They took the land by force, and imprisoned over 40% of the male population in the first place."

O.K. this is true. But where would Israelis be now without Israel?


Fuck knows, but one this is for sure they wouldn't be building swimming pools on the bulldozed villages of dead and displace Palestinians.


Maybe Israel wants to show Jewish people worldwide that you can persecute Jews in France but if you do it in Israel proper, there is retaliation.


Maybe they just want to kill more Palestinians, destroy more of their homes and more of their farmland - just as they have been doing with little respite for the last 50 years. You simply can't justify indiscriminate retaliation against civillians, it is a cruel and criminal act by definition, whoever does it, whether they wear a uniform or not.


"I can only conclude that you have chosen to ignore evidence because you wish to justify the mass torture and murder of Palestinians."

The problem is this: Although I take Israel's side on this matter, I don't base my argument on reciting to you various endless wrongs I think Hamas may have perpetrated. I mean, I can see rights and wrongs on both sides. I don't


Actually, you do. The reason why you don't cite specific acts is because you don't do any research into the matter, and if you did you would find that the body count is overwhelmingly in favour of the very much unoppressed Israeli side. If you're talking Old Testament eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, the Israelis are already owing 4000+ corpses to the Palestinians for the last 5 years alone. That is an average of 2 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence every single day, and that is a relatively *quiet* period when compared to some in Israel's history.


Yet, your own arguments are emotional and less analytical. The debate consists of recitals of terrible wrongs committed by Israel and no mention of Hamas's rocket attacks e.t.c. There is no stepping back and looking at the problem as a complex issue based on culture, politics and history.


In practice Carrera the rocket attacks rarely cause serious damage or death or injury. Do yourself a favour and present some statistics detailing the number of deaths and injuries resulting from rocket attacks from September 2005. They are there to be found, then compare them to the statistic I presented regarding the fatalities and injuries from IDF artillery over the same period.

If you do that honestly you will see that Israel could simply quit killing for 6 months, and ask the Palestinians to do the same. At the current mortality rates they would still be well ahead of the game (I use the word advisedly, see Dov Weisglass) after 6 months. During that 6 months they could offer unconditional talks, they don't have to agree to anything, just talk, get to know each other, build a bridge. After the 6 months is up they can go back to 24x7 shelling of civillian targets, starvation, dehydartion, and destroying farmland. The only thing they lose is killing ~500 Palestinians and maybe ~2 civillians, that is a pretty small opportunity cost for a PR coup.

That doesn't seem like too much of a concession to me.

"They "kidnapped" a soldier, and man who would have otherwise been cruising around Gaza in a tank, quite probably shelling Palestinian civillians."

Yes, but they also kidnapped a female British girl who travelled to Gaza to support the Palestinian cause. There has been a trend of kidnappings in Gaza City. The situation had been getting considerably worse of late.

"Attacking a heavily armed military target that has an active role in killing civillians is *not* terrorism, it is warfare. If they blew up a bus of school children I would class it as terrorism. Please explain to me why attacking military target is terrorism but shelling a bunch of families on a beach is not ?"

I wasn't under the impression the Palestinians were actually at war with Israel after the pull-out from Gaza. :confused: I wonder if those kidnappers wore any uniform or insignia when they crossed the border? Who knows? At any rate, digging a tunnel across the border and kidnapping military personel is an act of war in my book. If the Hamas Government is going to carry out such actions then surely they owe Israel an official declaration of war, issued to Israel on behalf of the Palestinain people they claim to represent. If they do that, then I'll agree with you, it's O.K. to target soldiers in conflict. What confuses me is how come Hamas is asking for E.U. intervention after Israel retaliated, though? Either it's war or it's peace.

"Israel has been very heavy handed. Israel has expelled and killed over 2 million Palestinians."

Sure, I will concede that point. I do think Israel should do it's level best to reduce civilian casualties and, especially, allow total access to the Red Cross. Everybody knows Israel has been heavy handed with the Palestinians which is why the U.S. criticized them too in the past. However, let's bear in mind London has so far had one terrorist bombing and yet plain clothes security forces pumped several bullets into a "suspected" terrorist's head in the metro.
So, I ask how will the U.K. deal with suspects if there are the same number of daily terrorist attacks in London as there are in Telaviv?

"Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out."

I saw a recent Beeb documentary where they asked Israelis to draw up their ideal map of the Middle East. Several of those asked in the street included a Palestinian State in their map and wanted a peaceful co-existance. Some Israelis did say they wanted no Palestinian State but that's only a percentage of the people as a whole. Personally I think most Israelis want out of Gaza altogether and to see the Palestinians running their own show with their own borders.

"I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar."

Please note, you were the first to take the discussion personally and I don't recall myself shouting names online. Plus, when your arguments face a serious challenge we have this inevitable call for myself to be banned. yet I found many arguments similar to mine on the BBC internet which surprised me. :confused:







Sounds like self defence to me, at the very least it is not as aggressive, indiscriminate or destructive as shelling the most densely populated area on Earth for the last 10 months with 155mm Howitzers.


Attacking a heavily armed military target that has an active role in killing civillians is *not* terrorism, it is warfare. If they blew up a bus of school children I would class it as terrorism. Please explain to me why attacking military target is terrorism but shelling a bunch of families on a beach is not ?



In actual fact I was responding to fact that you asserted that the Israeli's were provoked by an unprovoked attack. That simply doesn't make sense given the timeline of events and the context of occupation and sustained attack on the Palestinians and their land over the last 50 odd years.



Russia has been quite rightly censured for that, although it is of course endorsed by Israel and the US. Two countries that are hip deep in the blood of Muslims right now.



Israel has been very heavy handed. Israel has expelled and killed over 2 million Palestinians. Israel even went to the trouble of setting up refugee camp massacres of unarmed women and children in Lebanon (Sabra/Shatilla). Israel is also substantially closer to home than Chechnya and I also think that it could be a very good place to build a bridge between the West and Islam as a whole. Chechnya simply does not register on my radar as strongly and I know far less about it, so I don't comment much, although I have pointed out (in opposition to you) that Russia has been particularly brutal and misguided in Chechnya. I was one of the guys who was hoping Lebed might actually persuede that nasty piece of vodka soaked shit, Yeltsin, to pursue peace rather than war.



I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar.



Israel doesn't make any distinction between "Peaceful" Palestinians and "Terrorists". The situation re: land ownership, travel rights, citizenship (particularly with mixed culture marriages) and the rest gives the lie to that. Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out.



Fuck knows, but one this is for sure they wouldn't be building swimming pools on the bulldozed villages of dead and displace Palestinians.



Maybe they just want to kill more Palestinians, destroy more of their homes and more of their farmland - just as they have been doing with little respite for the last 50 years. You simply can't justify indiscriminate retaliation against civillians, it is a cruel and criminal act by definition, whoever does it, whether they wear a uniform or not.



Actually, you do. The reason why you don't cite specific acts is because you don't do any research into the matter, and if you did you would find that the body count is overwhelmingly in favour of the very much unoppressed Israeli side. If you're talking Old Testament eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, the Israelis are already owing 4000+ corpses to the Palestinians for the last 5 years alone. That is an average of 2 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence every single day, and that is a relatively *quiet* period when compared to some in Israel's history.



In practice Carrera the rocket attacks rarely cause serious damage or death or injury. Do yourself a favour and present some statistics detailing the number of deaths and injuries resulting from rocket attacks from September 2005. They are there to be found, then compare them to the statistic I presented regarding the fatalities and injuries from IDF artillery over the same period.

If you do that honestly you will see that Israel could simply quit killing for 6 months, and ask the Palestinians to do the same. At the current mortality rates they would still be well ahead of the game (I use the word advisedly, see Dov Weisglass) after 6 months. During that 6 months they could offer unconditional talks, they don't have to agree to anything, just talk, get to know each other, build a bridge. After the 6 months is up they can go back to 24x7 shelling of civillian targets, starvation, dehydartion, and destroying farmland. The only thing they lose is killing ~500 Palestinians and maybe ~2 civillians, that is a pretty small opportunity cost for a PR coup.

That doesn't seem like too much of a concession to me.[/QUOTE]

Here is a list of kidnappings conducted in Gaza over the months to prove to you Hamas in a terrorist organization that doesn't operate within the constraints of military warfare. The problem is when I present any of this information I'm instantly accused of pulling it all out of a magic hat.
What I'm trying to get across, however, is that Gaza has become increasingly lawless with indicriminate rocket attacks and kidnappings.

"(1)The director of International Red Cross in Gaza was kidnapped by gunmen

(2)Two French citizens and a Korean were seized from a hotel in Gaza City by gunmen, one of whom was shot dead by security forces

(3)A British Council cultural centre in Gaza was set ablaze and an EU compound stormed

(4)The border crossing between Gaza and Egypt shut for the day after European monitors withdrew because of security threats

(5)An American teacher at the Arab American University in Jenin, in the northern West Bank, was held briefly by militants

(6)Two Australian teachers were held by militants in northern Gaza for two hours before being released

(7)Palestinian militants from the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades in Gaza City warned US and UK nationals to leave the Palestinian territories immediately.

"In practice Carrera the rocket attacks rarely cause serious damage or death or injury. Do yourself a favour and present some statistics detailing the number of deaths and injuries resulting from rocket attacks from September 2005."

The intention behind it is to kill Israelis. If they had skuds, I'm sure these would be used instead.

"That is an average of 2 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence every single day, and that is a relatively *quiet* period when compared to some in Israel's history."

Israel has the biggest army in the Middle East and Hamas is a small, not very professional organization so I agree it's a one-sided fight, in one sense. So, Palestinian casualties are higher. However, my own view is Hamas started this present conflict and now it appeals to the U.N. when there is retaliation.
If I were in the Israeli position I'd perhaps do this: Cease the military incursion, allow the U.N. and Red Cross total access to Gaza with the stipulation that the U.N. itself should stop the rocket attacks and take charge of the situation.
I don't think the IDF wants to be in Gaza at all.







They "kidnapped" a soldier, and man who would have otherwise been cruising around Gaza in a tank, quite probably shelling Palestinian civillians. Sounds like self defence to me, at the very least it is not as aggressive, indiscriminate or destructive as shelling the most densely populated area on Earth for the last 10 months with 155mm Howitzers. Please note that 155mm rounds have a dispersion radius of 370m and a kill zone (against people in body armor) of 50m, there is no way you can aim such an indiscriminate weapon at the most densely populated area on Earth without expecting to kill civillians.



Attacking a heavily armed military target that has an active role in killing civillians is *not* terrorism, it is warfare. If they blew up a bus of school children I would class it as terrorism. Please explain to me why attacking military target is terrorism but shelling a bunch of families on a beach is not ?



In actual fact I was responding to fact that you asserted that the Israeli's were provoked by an unprovoked attack. That simply doesn't make sense given the timeline of events and the context of occupation and sustained attack on the Palestinians and their land over the last 50 odd years.



Russia has been quite rightly censured for that, although it is of course endorsed by Israel and the US. Two countries that are hip deep in the blood of Muslims right now.



Israel has been very heavy handed. Israel has expelled and killed over 2 million Palestinians. Israel even went to the trouble of setting up refugee camp massacres of unarmed women and children in Lebanon (Sabra/Shatilla). Israel is also substantially closer to home than Chechnya and I also think that it could be a very good place to build a bridge between the West and Islam as a whole. Chechnya simply does not register on my radar as strongly and I know far less about it, so I don't comment much, although I have pointed out (in opposition to you) that Russia has been particularly brutal and misguided in Chechnya. I was one of the guys who was hoping Lebed might actually persuede that nasty piece of vodka soaked shit, Yeltsin, to pursue peace rather than war.



I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar.



Israel doesn't make any distinction between "Peaceful" Palestinians and "Terrorists". The situation re: land ownership, travel rights, citizenship (particularly with mixed culture marriages) and the rest gives the lie to that. Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out.



Fuck knows, but one this is for sure they wouldn't be building swimming pools on the bulldozed villages of dead and displace Palestinians.



Maybe they just want to kill more Palestinians, destroy more of their homes and more of their farmland - just as they have been doing with little respite for the last 50 years. You simply can't justify indiscriminate retaliation against civillians, it is a cruel and criminal act by definition, whoever does it, whether they wear a uniform or not.



Actually, you do. The reason why you don't cite specific acts is because you don't do any research into the matter, and if you did you would find that the body count is overwhelmingly in favour of the very much unoppressed Israeli side. If you're talking Old Testament eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, the Israelis are already owing 4000+ corpses to the Palestinians for the last 5 years alone. That is an average of 2 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence every single day, and that is a relatively *quiet* period when compared to some in Israel's history.



In practice Carrera the rocket attacks rarely cause serious damage or death or injury. Do yourself a favour and present some statistics detailing the number of deaths and injuries resulting from rocket attacks from September 2005. They are there to be found, then compare them to the statistic I presented regarding the fatalities and injuries from IDF artillery over the same period.

If you do that honestly you will see that Israel could simply quit killing for 6 months, and ask the Palestinians to do the same. At the current mortality rates they would still be well ahead of the game (I use the word advisedly, see Dov Weisglass) after 6 months. During that 6 months they could offer unconditional talks, they don't have to agree to anything, just talk, get to know each other, build a bridge. After the 6 months is up they can go back to 24x7 shelling of civillian targets, starvation, dehydartion, and destroying farmland. The only thing they lose is killing ~500 Palestinians and maybe ~2 civillians, that is a pretty small opportunity cost for a PR coup.

That doesn't seem like too much of a concession to me.

Yes, but they also kidnapped a female British girl who travelled to Gaza to support the Palestinian cause. There has been a trend of kidnappings in Gaza City. The situation had been getting considerably worse of late.


You were talking about the Israeli soldier to the exclusion of all other events. I responded appropriately. Furthermore they Hamas government actually helped secured her release.


I wasn't under the impression the Palestinians were actually at war with Israel after the pull-out from Gaza. :confused:


Kinda hard not to be in a state of war when IDF shells are raining down on your towns, snipers are shooting your kids at checkpoints and where they sit in their school rooms, IDF bulldozers flattening your houses, IDF planes dropping bombs, IDF tanks firing on demonstrations. Furthermore you must not forget about the West Bank and Jerusalem, in both areas where the Israelis are actively taking more land from Palestinians, imprisoning and killing more of them.


I wonder if those kidnappers wore any uniform or insignia when they crossed the border? Who knows?


Who gives a fuck. No one but a moronic boy scout would believe that all military engagements are carried out by uniformed servicement in broad daylight... Use your loaf. Newsflash for you : the IDF regularly sends in hit squads into Gaza and the West Bank in mufti, nothing is fair in war at least.


If the Hamas Government is going to carry out such actions then surely they owe Israel an official declaration of war, issued to Israel on behalf of the Palestinain people they claim to represent.


They don't owe the Israelis an iota. Quite the reverse.

For the record Israeli government and military sources have claimed that the attack was planned and financed by a guy in Damascus behind the back of the Hamas politicians in Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank. Hell, they'll probably attack Syria as well just in case.


What confuses me is how come Hamas is asking for E.U. intervention after Israel retaliated, though? Either it's war or it's peace.


It is logically impossible for Israel to "Retaliate" when it has been continually shelling Gaza with 155mm artillery since September 2005, and attacking Gaza with ASMs and 1000kg bombs. All they've done is changed the tools of the trade, they've switched from using standoff weapons to battlefield weapons.


"Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out."

I saw a recent Beeb documentary where they asked Israelis to draw up their ideal map of the Middle East. Several of those asked in the street included a Palestinian State in their map and wanted a peaceful co-existance. Some Israelis did say they wanted no Palestinian State but that's only a percentage of the people as a whole. Personally I think most Israelis want out of Gaza altogether and to see the Palestinians running their own show with their own borders.


Sure, but that counts for fuck all until the Israeli government gets onboard. See Menachem Froman's writings on the matter.


"I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar."

Please note, you were the first to take the discussion personally and I don't recall myself shouting names online.


You lied, I called it.


Plus, when your arguments face a serious challenge we have this inevitable call for myself to be banned. yet I found many arguments similar to mine on the BBC internet which surprised me. :confused:


The BBC is hardly a bastion of evidence itself. This is the same BBC that chose to print the IDF version of the Beach killings without any comment, but chose to relegate the qualified eye-witness story a couple of lines that crucially omitted the specifics, namely that eye-witness was qualified to judge whether it was a mine explosion or a shell explosion, and that he found a shell fragment at the blast site with markings on it that is consistent with the ammunition fired by the IDF's SP Howitzers.

I have noticed that there are some remarkable semantic contortions in the articles regarding Israel. There appears to be a large amount of rewriting of articles going on, sometimes you can even see it happening. Have you noticed how the pictures frequently don't match up to the tone of the story too ?

There appears to be an editorial battle going on there.

I would dearly love to be in a position to praise the Israeli and Palestinian leadership for brokering an enduring and just peace, but quite frankly that just is not possible.

I don't have time to respond to all of these points right now as I have my bike training session to do - and then painting e.t.c. At any rate.....:

"Furthermore you must not forget about the West Bank and Jerusalem, in both areas where the Israelis are actively taking more land from Palestinians, imprisoning and killing more of them."

Many times I tried to emphasise to you that this whole business of Israel "stealing land" is a fabrication. In the past, I gave many reasons based on ancient history to stress that Jewish people have been occupying this land for thousands of years. They were actually ethnically cleansed by invasions of Assyria, Babylon and Rome. It was the Romans who made a province out of Israel under the emperor Hadrian and he punished Jews for rebellion against the Roman State - same as the Greeks.
The current population of Palestininians moved into Gaza over past centuries and settled in the region while most Jews were scattered throughout Europe and Russia. It was the Jewish people who were actually ethnically cleansed and displaced.
Last time I perused a BBC forum on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, I was surprised that more people have become aware the Palestinians are ignoring accepted history and many folks on the BBC forum were actually laying some of the blame on the Palestinians for a change. The fact is, according to Hamas, Israel has no right to exist - period.
Moreover, my position is hardly an extreme one. I believe the Palestinians are entitled to a State of their own and have no problem with that. My objection is that I don't accept this false idea that Jews "stole" land when, in truth, they "reoccupied" their homeland by force.



You were talking about the Israeli soldier to the exclusion of all other events. I responded appropriately. Furthermore they Hamas government actually helped secured her release.



Kinda hard not to be in a state of war when IDF shells are raining down on your towns, snipers are shooting your kids at checkpoints and where they sit in their school rooms, IDF bulldozers flattening your houses, IDF planes dropping bombs, IDF tanks firing on demonstrations. Furthermore you must not forget about the West Bank and Jerusalem, in both areas where the Israelis are actively taking more land from Palestinians, imprisoning and killing more of them.



Who gives a fuck. No one but a moronic boy scout would believe that all military engagements are carried out by uniformed servicement in broad daylight... Use your loaf. Newsflash for you : the IDF regularly sends in hit squads into Gaza and the West Bank in mufti, nothing is fair in war at least.



They don't owe the Israelis an iota. Quite the reverse.

For the record Israeli government and military sources have claimed that the attack was planned and financed by a guy in Damascus behind the back of the Hamas politicians in Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank. Hell, they'll probably attack Syria as well just in case.



It is logically impossible for Israel to "Retaliate" when it has been continually shelling Gaza with 155mm artillery since September 2005, and attacking Gaza with ASMs and 1000kg bombs. All they've done is changed the tools of the trade, they've switched from using standoff weapons to battlefield weapons.



Sure, but that counts for fuck all until the Israeli government gets onboard. See Menachem Froman's writings on the matter.



You lied, I called it.



The BBC is hardly a bastion of evidence itself. This is the same BBC that chose to print the IDF version of the Beach killings without any comment, but chose to relegate the qualified eye-witness story a couple of lines that crucially omitted the specifics, namely that eye-witness was qualified to judge whether it was a mine explosion or a shell explosion, and that he found a shell fragment at the blast site with markings on it that is consistent with the ammunition fired by the IDF's SP Howitzers.

I have noticed that there are some remarkable semantic contortions in the articles regarding Israel. There appears to be a large amount of rewriting of articles going on, sometimes you can even see it happening. Have you noticed how the pictures frequently don't match up to the tone of the story too ?

There appears to be an editorial battle going on there.

I would dearly love to be in a position to praise the Israeli and Palestinian leadership for brokering an enduring and just peace, but quite frankly that just is not possible.

For your perusal:


Israel’s shameful attack on Gaza
By Mike Whitney
Online Journal Contributing Writer


Jul 12, 2006, 01:05


(?subject=Israel%92s%20shameful%20attack%20on%20Gaza&body=http%3A%2F%2Fonlinejournal.com%2Fartman%2Fpublish%2Farticle_986.shtml)“We are sure that Israel is using a new chemical or radioactive weapon in their operation . . . When we try to X-ray dead bodies, we find no trace of shrapnel that hit the person killed,” said Dr. al-Saqqa, Shifa Hospital, Gaza; following the examination of the “completely burnt” bodies of dead Palestinians killed in Israeli air raids.

Question: How many editorials or op-ed columns have appeared in American newspapers defending the rights of Palestinian civilians to live in peace without the constant threat of being invaded or shelled by the world’s forth largest military?

None.

How many editorials or op-ed columnists have defended the Geneva Conventions or international laws against collective punishment, the willful destruction of critical infrastructure, or military maneuvers that deliberately put civilians in imminent danger?

None.

Then how many editorials or op-ed columnists have presented the recent flurry of events (including the capture of Israeli soldier Galid Shalit) in the broader context of Israel’s ongoing boycott of food and medical supplies, as well as the 50 or so Palestinian civilians who have been killed in Israel’s regular incitements in the occupied territories?

None.

The account of Palestinian suffering and victimhood rarely finds its way into the mainstream press, but in the present case, it has been completely ignored. In fact, none of the media provide any context for the current invasion at all. Israel’s blockade of food and lethal provocations have been going on for months, and yet, the accounts from Gaza would have the reader believe that history began on the day that the Israeli soldier was captured.

Sure, if the reader wants a balanced perspective, he can go to the Internet and choose from the many articles which provide the Israeli or Palestinian perspective of events, but the mainstream media?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

The bias has grown into such an impenetrable cloud of pro-Israeli rubbish that it’s laughable. In fact, it's more likely to stumble across the random article lambasting Bush or Cheney than anything remotely critical of Israel.

There’s no debate about the facts of Israel’s brutal siege of Gaza. The only thing in dispute is the way those facts are skewed in the American media. Pick up the New York Times and you would swear it was edited by Ariel Sharon. There’s not even an attempt at evenhandedness; just the foolish ruminations of scribes who think they can spin war crimes into hard-hitting journalism.

Israel has been pummeling Gaza for months; intentionally starving the beleaguered occupants while lobbing 6,000 artillery shells into populated areas. Isn’t that front-page news?

Meanwhile, another 50 civilians have been bumped-off in gangland-style hits ("Targeted assassinations") authorized by the Knesset’s newest Mafia don, Ehud Olmert. Olmert has put the carnage and destruction into high-gear, eliciting criticism from his very own daughter who protested in front of her father’s home with signs that said, “Stop the Killing” among other things.

The Israelis have developed “sound machines” that emit ear-piercing explosions that have been deployed in Gaza City to shatter windows, cause miscarriages, and send children into deep trauma. It is a “terror device” pure and simple; it has no other function except to produce massive fear and anxiety. It is the latest weapon in the prodigious arsenal of the “world’s most moral army” (Olmert quote)

So why can’t we get the real scoop about Israel’s depredations in the territories or, at the very least, an occasional article providing a differing point of view? Is that too much to ask?

Simply put, anyone who believes this nonsense about “the poor abducted soldier” who fell prey to Hamas terrorists is a fool. The soldier is part of an illegal occupation which has been condemned in countless UN resolutions and which makes him a legitimate target in the struggle for national liberation. Since his capture, he has received medical attention and, my guess is, he probably hasn’t been tortured or abused at all. (which certainly would not be the case if he were captured by Israeli or American forces)

So, who are the terrorists here anyway?

Newly elected Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has been calling for calm and restraint throughout the entire 14-day ordeal. In fact, Haniyeh has made repeated appeals to the militants to release the soldier unharmed even while “Olmert the barbarian” was rampaging through Gaza blowing up roads, electric power plants, water lines, and, yes, even schools.

Schools, for God’s sakes. That’s just flat nuts!

If Israel had any sense they’d dump Olmert the madman and appoint Haniyeh as prime minister. So far, he’s the only one who has emerged from this mess looking like a reasonable fellow. (Note: Israel continues to threaten his life.)

Anyway, don’t expect objectivity from the American “free press.” I had to search through the Arab media just to find out that the UN was sending a fact-finding mission to Gaza to report on “Israel’s grave rights violations.” Don’t you think that the American people would like to know that little tidbit?

Or, that UN Special Rapporteur John Dugard is headed off to Gaza to investigate the Israeli military’s “disproportionate use of force against civilians.” Dugard said, “It is clear that Israel is in violation of the most fundamental norms of humanitarian law and human rights.”

His comments have not appeared in any American newspaper.

Wouldn’t the American people want to know how far removed their government is from the prevailing opinion of other countries?

Sure they would, but don’t expect the media to tell them.

The American public has no idea the effect this invasion has had on the Muslim world; the mass demonstrations in Amman, Cairo, Tehran, Doha, etc. They haven’t heard the anger expressed at the United Nations or by world leaders who are sick and tired of the US defending Israel’s heavy-handed tactics.

The average American has no idea that Israel is keeping more than 9,000 prisoners locked up without charges and that over 400 of them are woman and children.

What the hell are they doing with children anyway? It’s an outrage.

It’s pretty clear that Israel would never get away with its crimes against humanity if it didn’t have a trustworthy friend in the American media. The streetwalking US press gave Bush a free pass on his Iraqi bloodbath; now they’re abetting Israel in its terror-crusade in Gaza.

It’s shameful.


http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_986.shtml

Many times I tried to emphasise to you that this whole business of Israel "stealing land" is a fabrication. In the past, I gave many reasons based on ancient history to stress that Jewish people have been occupying this land for thousands of years.


Alongside Gentiles, yes. Gentiles occupied Israel before Jews, and indeed they continued to live side by side with Jews for thousands of years. Israel was *never* an exclusively "Jewish" state in ethnic makeup, and it remained that way until 1948 when the Zionist movement embarked upon an Ethnic Cleansing in Israel. As you yourself have acknowledged there are at least 2 million Palestinians who have been killed and displaced from their land within Israel since 1947. That accounts for ONE THIRD of the population.


They were actually ethnically cleansed by invasions of Assyria, Babylon and Rome. It was the Romans who made a province out of Israel under the emperor Hadrian and he punished Jews for rebellion against the Roman State - same as the Greeks.


Oddly enough Jews remained, and were specifically protected under Saladin's rule.


The current population of Palestininians moved into Gaza over past centuries and settled in the region while most Jews were scattered throughout Europe and Russia. It was the Jewish people who were actually ethnically cleansed and displaced.



The fact is, according to Hamas, Israel has no right to exist - period.


Factually incorrect, I presented plenty of evidence directly from the sources (ie: Hamas leadership) that directly contradicts that. Most of the evidence presented (and referenced in that post) actually predates the Hamas government. I also pointed out that the PLO charter that was penned in the late 60s stated that they were aiming to exist side by side people of all religions, including Jews (and Zionists). You (and the media) can continue to ignore the facts as long as you like, but it doesn't make you (or the media) any more correct. All it does is compound the injustice and misery inflicted upon Palestinian men, women and children in the State of Israel.


Moreover, my position is hardly an extreme one. I believe the Palestinians are entitled to a State of their own and have no problem with that. My objection is that I don't accept this false idea that Jews "stole" land when, in truth, they "reoccupied" their homeland by force.


Rubbish. They never left it. Your rather dubious interpretation of historical evidence specifically states that the Palestinians had no part in the alleged Ethnic Cleansing of Israel. In fact the indigenous people were persecuted in exactly the same way as the Jews under the various imperial occupations because they are one and the same people, as proven by several genetic studies (that you denied with rhetorical arguments and character assasinations rather than scientific evidence).

Regardless of what happened 100, 1000 or 10,000 years ago the fact of the matter here and now is that a so-called "Democracy" is physically destroying an entire culture within it's borders here and now. You keep alluding to parallels with Chechnya, but in truth this is more akin to the Kurds in Turkey, or the fate of the Native Americans in the USA. The West Bank and Gaza are strikingly similar to the Indian Reservations of yore where Indians starved and died from disease simply because they were penned into inadequate land, shot at, prevented from feeding, clothing and housing themselves adequately.

FWIW Russia doesn't appear to be making the entire Chechen population disappear, and that is a fundamental difference. The Ethnic Cleansing project going on in Israel receives not only open recognition within Israel, but it also so intense criticism and all sections of society, including Orthodox Jews (including some Zionists), Rabbis of all stripes. They can see it, they are against it, why can't you see it and why can't you be against it ?

"Alongside Gentiles, yes. Gentiles occupied Israel before Jews."

As I said before, the Canaanites preceded the tribes of Israel. They were closely related to the the Hebrews.

"Israel was *never* an exclusively "Jewish" state in ethnic makeup..."

No nation is exclusively Greek, Italian, Roman, Syrian e.t.c. Greece had immigration and so did Israel. Solomen was half Jewish and Job was a foreigner. The famous Roman Seneca was actually Spanish.
However, you're incorrect to state Israel didn't have a distinct culture. Even under the Romans, Jews ran their own show under Herod, practised their own religion and kept their religious laws.
Christianity arrived fairly late under Tiberius. Islam arrived centuries after that.

"and it remained that way until 1948 when the Zionist movement embarked upon an Ethnic Cleansing in Israel."

Jews were ethnically cleansed due to Assyrian and Babylonian incursions and were, hence, ethnically cleansed themselves at various points in history. That's why I take Israel's side, basing my views on an analytical consideration of the facts.

"I also pointed out that the PLO charter that was penned in the late 60s stated that they were aiming to exist side by side people of all religions, including Jews (and Zionists)."

I guess I simply disagree. To my mind it seems obvious that Hamas, Iran, Syria e.t.c. want to see an Islamic Jerusalem (even an Islamic Europe). Their motivation is religion. They do not want to see Jews living in the confines of Israel. They don't recognise Israel as having any historical ancestry or even roots in Israel. This is nonsense. As for Europe, why do you think Iran was calling for press censorship in the E.U.? These people want to see all countries living under Sharia Law, so it seems to me.

"In fact the indigenous people were persecuted in exactly the same way as the Jews under the various imperial occupations because they are one and the same people, as proven by several genetic studies (that you denied with rhetorical arguments and character assasinations rather than scientific evidence)."

The Palestinian people have been shown to have originated from Turkey, Iraq, Iran and mostly Arab countries. Some Palestinians even have Jewish ancestry - their forefathers converted to Islam centuries ago. As for modern Israelis, they arrived in Israel from many European destinations, from Russia, Armenia e.t.c. Basically, Jewish people speak modern Hebrew and Palestinians speak Arabic. The two are culturally distinct, even more so than, say, Welsh and Scots.

"The West Bank and Gaza are strikingly similar to the Indian Reservations of yore where Indians starved and died from disease simply because they were penned into inadequate land, shot at, prevented from feeding, clothing and housing themselves adequately."

I really don't believe Israel would not tolerate Arabs and Christians within their borders. The history of Israel proves otherwise. They went on to peacefully co-exist with the Philistines, Canaanites, Amorites and various ethnic groups. None of those ethnic groups believed Israel had no right to exist - that's the essential difference. Even the Romans were aware Israel had an ancient heritage in the land. Arabs simply deny this and that's where the problem lies.

"Russia doesn't appear to be making the entire Chechen population disappear, and that is a fundamental difference."

Who were the Black Widows then who invaded the Nordost Theatre in Moscow? Answer: The mothers of the Chechnyan males Russia killed after months of air-bombings. Russia didn't allow any U.N. access into Chechnya. Putin decided he wasn't going to tolerate any more terroristbombings period. He acted far more resolutely than Israel is even doing today.

Incidentally, I have never stated Chrsitians and Moslems should never live alongside Jews in Israel. That's not what the crisis is about. This has to do with members of Hamas seeking free access into Israel so they can kill, maim and blow themselves up at will to attain their objective - the destruction of Israel as a democracy and the foundation of an Islamic theocracy.







Alongside Gentiles, yes. Gentiles occupied Israel before Jews, and indeed they continued to live side by side with Jews for thousands of years. Israel was *never* an exclusively "Jewish" state in ethnic makeup, and it remained that way until 1948 when the Zionist movement embarked upon an Ethnic Cleansing in Israel. As you yourself have acknowledged there are at least 2 million Palestinians who have been killed and displaced from their land within Israel since 1947. That accounts for ONE THIRD of the population.



Oddly enough Jews remained, and were specifically protected under Saladin's rule.





Factually incorrect, I presented plenty of evidence directly from the sources (ie: Hamas leadership) that directly contradicts that. Most of the evidence presented (and referenced in that post) actually predates the Hamas government. I also pointed out that the PLO charter that was penned in the late 60s stated that they were aiming to exist side by side people of all religions, including Jews (and Zionists). You (and the media) can continue to ignore the facts as long as you like, but it doesn't make you (or the media) any more correct. All it does is compound the injustice and misery inflicted upon Palestinian men, women and children in the State of Israel.



Rubbish. They never left it. Your rather dubious interpretation of historical evidence specifically states that the Palestinians had no part in the alleged Ethnic Cleansing of Israel. In fact the indigenous people were persecuted in exactly the same way as the Jews under the various imperial occupations because they are one and the same people, as proven by several genetic studies (that you denied with rhetorical arguments and character assasinations rather than scientific evidence).

Regardless of what happened 100, 1000 or 10,000 years ago the fact of the matter here and now is that a so-called "Democracy" is physically destroying an entire culture within it's borders here and now. You keep alluding to parallels with Chechnya, but in truth this is more akin to the Kurds in Turkey, or the fate of the Native Americans in the USA. The West Bank and Gaza are strikingly similar to the Indian Reservations of yore where Indians starved and died from disease simply because they were penned into inadequate land, shot at, prevented from feeding, clothing and housing themselves adequately.

FWIW Russia doesn't appear to be making the entire Chechen population disappear, and that is a fundamental difference. The Ethnic Cleansing project going on in Israel receives not only open recognition within Israel, but it also so intense criticism and all sections of society, including Orthodox Jews (including some Zionists), Rabbis of all stripes. They can see it, they are against it, why can't you see it and why can't you be against it ?

May I just say that if Canada or Mexico started lobbing rockets over the border into the U.S. there would be a very big problem.

If France started lobbing rockets over to England or Germany (hypothetically speaking, even) there would be hell to pay.

In this world, lobbing rockets of any kind of over any border is asking for trouble. Whether or not one likes their neighbor, feels that their neighbor has no right to be there, wishes its neighbor would drop dead, the realities of the situation must be seen cognitively and worked around with for the sake of one's survival.

Death and destruction brings more death and destruction. It is a very terrible thing, a grave danger to the world and I, for one, wish that peace would have prevailed and that everyone could live on this planet as "the family of man"...I keep dreaming.

The best thing to do is for both sides to quit killing and negotiate full stop, however that simply won't happen because Olmert and his pals appear to think that all Palestinians are Terrorists and they have categorically stated that they won't negotiate with terrorists. :(



Israel has to stop arresting, maiming and killing it's negotiating partners too. See Menachem Froman's recent peace efforts being quashed by Shin Bet.
but, love it does take two to tango.......danse macabre.

Peace? In Israel/Palestine it'll never exist for long. :(

"Alongside Gentiles, yes. Gentiles occupied Israel before Jews."

However, you're incorrect to state Israel didn't have a distinct culture. Even under the Romans, Jews ran their own show under Herod, practised their own religion and kept their religious laws.


Even back then there was a very broad mix of people with differeing faiths - if you believe the Bible.


"and it remained that way until 1948 when the Zionist movement embarked upon an Ethnic Cleansing in Israel."

Jews were ethnically cleansed due to Assyrian and Babylonian incursions and were, hence, ethnically cleansed themselves at various points in history. That's why I take Israel's side, basing my views on an analytical consideration of the facts.


That does not justify them systematically wiping out a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it whatsoever here and now. Futhermore those people are descended from a line that has it's origins in the region at a time that predates Judaism.


"I also pointed out that the PLO charter that was penned in the late 60s stated that they were aiming to exist side by side people of all religions, including Jews (and Zionists)."

I guess I simply disagree. To my mind it seems obvious that Hamas, Iran, Syria e.t.c. want to see an Islamic Jerusalem (even an Islamic Europe).


You can disagree as much as you like, but that is what those guys actually said. Israel, you, Mel P, Dan P, can yell it as loud from the treetops as you like, but the actual fact of the matter is that the Hamas and Fatah leadership have quite specifcally stated that they accept Israel's existence and that they are willing to live in a multi-cultural society. This is backed up by several Rabbis, including Orthodox Jews. Your pig-headed ignorance *is* facilitating genocide.


Their motivation is religion. They do not want to see Jews living in the confines of Israel. They don't recognise Israel as having any historical ancestry or even roots in Israel. This is nonsense.


Yeah, it is nonsense. Particularly when you read what Rabbis who have met up with the Palestinian leaders over the years say. In fact it is so far from the truth that one might reasonably conclude that you are working for the IDF's PR crew.


As for Europe, why do you think Iran was calling for press censorship in the E.U.?


Israel calls for media to be censored all the time too, what is your point ?


These people want to see all countries living under Sharia Law, so it seems to me.


You would be categorically wrong too.


The Palestinian people have been shown to have originated from Turkey, Iraq, Iran and mostly Arab countries. Some Palestinians even have Jewish ancestry - their forefathers converted to Islam centuries ago.


They are the exact same stock as the indigenous Jews, regardless of where they came from. The European Zionists are largely of Teutonic and Russian ancestry - they are a different breed. This is confirmed by Genetic studies. By contrast your threadbare claims that somehow only Jews have any kind of Heritage in Israel is solely based on subjective accounts of incomplete historical documents and religious dogma in the form of the Old Testament. I base my argument on Science and Logic, you base your argument on Religious Dogma. In my experience it's nigh on impossible to make a religious zealot accept Science and Logic when it conflicts with their deeply held convictions, so we will continue to disagree.


As for modern Israelis, they arrived in Israel from many European destinations, from Russia, Armenia e.t.c. Basically, Jewish people speak modern Hebrew and Palestinians speak Arabic. The two are culturally distinct, even more so than, say, Welsh and Scots.


"Modern Hebrew" isn't even as old as the Palestinian Olive groves that are being bulldozed. Again, I don't see how cultural difference can be used to justify ethnic cleansing in this instance. Both cultures have a long history of co-existance, that could have continued if the Zionists had chosen to allow other cultures to co-exist within Israel. In practice they have adopted an approach of religious intolerance.


"The West Bank and Gaza are strikingly similar to the Indian Reservations of yore where Indians starved and died from disease simply because they were penned into inadequate land, shot at, prevented from feeding, clothing and housing themselves adequately."

I really don't believe Israel would not tolerate Arabs and Christians within their borders.


The laws of the land categorically discriminate between Jews and Gentiles, the entire state of Israel is built on religious intolerance. Palestinians don't even have Israeli citizenship, they are discriminated against because they were not Jewish when the passports are handed out. You have accepted that millions of people were killed and displaced by the Zionists, that *IS* religious intolerance in my book. I don't see how you can interpret it in any other way.


The history of Israel proves otherwise. They went on to peacefully co-exist with the Philistines, Canaanites, Amorites and various ethnic groups.


That is history, that is not the case today.


None of those ethnic groups believed Israel had no right to exist - that's the essential difference. Even the Romans were aware Israel had an ancient heritage in the land. Arabs simply deny this and that's where the problem lies.


Actually they don't. The Israelis (and you) claim they don't, but in practice they very much do today (again, see Menachem Fromen's essays), and history confirms that they did in days gone by. His writings are of particular relevence if you wish to explore the religious aspects of the conflict in Israel.


"Russia doesn't appear to be making the entire Chechen population disappear, and that is a fundamental difference."

Who were the Black Widows then who invaded the Nordost Theatre in Moscow? Answer: The mothers of the Chechnyan males Russia killed after


What the fuck relevence does that have to a systematic programe of Ethnic Cleansing on religious lines ? The Chechnya conflict is about regaining independence. The Israeli conflict is about setting up a Jewish state in a majority Muslim land. I don't see much similarity between them aside from people claiming god is on their particular side and using that as an excuse to kill other people.


Incidentally, I have never stated Chrsitians and Moslems should never live alongside Jews in Israel.


Indeed, but you have said that Jews have an exclusive right to Israel, which amounts to the same thing. Straight out of the Zionist playbook.


That's not what the crisis is about. This has to do with members of Hamas seeking free access into Israel so they can kill, maim and blow themselves up at will to attain their objective - the destruction of Israel as a democracy and the foundation of an Islamic theocracy.


That's how the Israeli Government says it is, but it bears little relation to the facts of the matter (ie: all the evidence you refuse to acknowledge). Until you are prepared to look beyond the Israeli Government for your information you will continue to grossly misrepresent the situation to the material detriment of millions of innocent people who have never lifted a finger against you.

European Jews were not indigenous to Europe. They came up the Rhine River from the middle east via North Africa after the disaspora and inquisitions. This also has been recorded with DNA.

Although my grandparents came from Russia, that is not where their ancestrage is from. They were in Germany/France first, and pushed east into Russia until the time of Czar Alexander, where most immigrated backto Palestine or the USA. Some however, came up through Czechoslovakia through Turkey, or Russia, and settled in the Caucaucus mountain areas, among others.

The wandering Jews.........still wander.

May I just say that if Canada or Mexico started lobbing rockets over the border into the U.S. there would be a very big problem.


Why would they start lobbing rockets over the border ? It's unlikely to happen at the moment because there is no reason for them to do so.