It's killing me but..........

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I might actually have to come calling the track-master Alex soon. Just got invited to an event on the 1st of April. The first part is a 2.4 km TT on a closed 2.5 km circuit. I've never really paced anything that short. My intervals are 380-400w for 5 minutes, so I know I can get better for 3 minutes for a one time blow out. But pacing that for speed will be new.

I might actually have to come calling the track-master Alex soon. Just got invited to an event on the 1st of April. The first part is a 2.4 km TT on a closed 2.5 km circuit. I've never really paced anything that short. My intervals are 380-400w for 5 minutes, so I know I can get better for 3 minutes for a one time blow out. But pacing that for speed will be new.What's your 3min MMP? It's a tricky distance. Flat?
April fool's day??!!:eek:

What's your 3min MMP?3 min MMP = 455

Pancake Flat, 3 90 degree corners.

3 min MMP = 455

Pancake Flat, 3 90 degree corners.Depending on whether you can stay on the gas through the corners, I'd suggest pursuit style pacing.

1. See if you can determine what your speed is at VO2 Max on such a course (are you using an aero position/set up?). Pacing using speed is easier than power.

2. Practice taking 12-14 seconds maximum to get up to or just slightly over that speed. No more than 1-1.5km/h over. Minimise gear changes and be in your cruise gear by then.

3. Don't go hard in the next 15 seconds, i.e. DON'T attempt to accelerate any more - it will feel "easy" but it will catch up with you soon enough. At the same time, maintain cadence/speed - you will float back towards your desired cruise speed if you overshot it.

4. Keep on the gas at the target power/speed - smooth pacing. At the 2km mark you will know if there is any opportunity to thump it for the last 1/2km. Doing that you may find that your power doesn't actually go up, but PE skyrockets.

Many riders will start fading badly from about the 1.5km mark as they'll probably have gone out way too hard....

If you need to ease off and reaccelerate for corners, then take care on the accelerations not to overshoot your target speed and keep the accelerations in check. Think of the start rules above but apply them to the shorter time frame of the corner. Good lines through the corners will help.

Good luck!

1. See if you can determine what your speed is at VO2 Max on such a course (are you using an aero position/set up?). Pacing using speed is easier than power.

2. Practice taking 12-14 seconds maximum to get up to or just slightly over that speed. No more than 1-1.5km/h over. Minimise gear changes and be in your cruise gear by then.

I have a good 90* corner route for my VO2max work. I'm going to do some practice from a standing start today doing my API work.

I'll be using clip on aerobars for the TT, and I might throw those on next week if I commit to the event. Too little time to get them clipped on after work today before getting in my ride before sundown. I haven't had the aerobars on for a couple months, so I might throw them on for my tempo work this week too just to get used to them again.

Tyson when I read your posts I think your FTP is nearby the 300 watt, isn't it?
Are you gonna post your FTP only when it's > 300 watt? :):):)

Today I tried to test mine. But my 60 minute time trial on my indoor trainer became I failure due excessive fatigue. Begin january I started training:

Week Hours TSS
Week 1 0.4 23.8
Week 2 4.3 257.3
Week 3 5.2 429.3
Week 4 2.8 237.1
Week 5 3.6 263.9
Week 6 5.0 452.6
Week 7 3.0 216.5
Week 8 1.1 96.7
I was aiming at 60 minutes at 295 watt based on my 2 x 22 minutes of L4 on sunday.
The last 22 minutes was with an average of 300watts. But today I had to abort my FTP test after 23 minutes (and only 290 watts as average).

At the moment I am :(:(:(

Tyson when I read your posts I think your FTP is nearby the 300 watt, isn't it?
Are you gonna post your FTP only when it's > 300 watt? :):):)

Today I tried to test mine. But my 60 minute time trial on my indoor trainer became I failure due excessive fatigue. Begin january I started training:

Week Hours TSS
Week 1 0.4 23.8
Week 2 4.3 257.3
Week 3 5.2 429.3
Week 4 2.8 237.1
Week 5 3.6 263.9
Week 6 5.0 452.6
Week 7 3.0 216.5
Week 8 1.1 96.7
I was aiming at 60 minutes at 295 watt based on my 2 x 22 minutes of L4 on sunday.
The last 22 minutes was with an average of 300watts. But today I had to abort my FTP test after 23 minutes (and only 290 watts as average).

At the moment I am :(:(:(Oh, if only it was 300W!:(
I'm fighting a battle on 2 fronts at the moment - searing temperatures in the gym on the trainer and freezing cold temps on the Sunday ride.
This morning I had to stop after 30 minutes and put my hands in my windproof top for 3 or 4 minutes just to get some life back in my fingers which were totally numb. And that's with wearing 2 pairs of gloves.
The Sun came up not long after that, albeit invisible behind thick clouds and life started to return to the digits.
After 90 minutes and one third of the way up a 5 km climb, the road side temp guage said 5C, so god knows what temp it was at the top. But by then I was comfortably warm anyway so no probs.
As you know I am fighting my way back from detraining (I won't make the same mistake this coming winter). In the gym at present I'm doing VO2 Max at 4x5 @ 280W and it's beginning to feel easy. I've no idea what my FTP is at the mo and have no intention to try and find out by doing 1 hour in the greenhouse.
I think on a trainer at home with the windows open and a fan blowing, I could possibly do somewhere near 280Watts for the hour - who knows.
After the first VO2Max interval in the gym the sweat is running off my face like a wet mop. Out on the road this morning with 3 layers (5 layers on the chest and stomach) I hardly broke sweat.

However, with your figures which are very impressive you shall have no challenge from me - well done!
Btw, I forget, do you have KK trainer and is that where you get your power figures from and how reliable are they?
Personally I'm hoping the gym trainers are way out in my favour, but alas I don't think they are. TYSON ;)
P.S. Hey Nomad what's the temperature like in your part of Japan, and what time do you set out on your rides?

I read somewhere that you did 40 minutes easy at 240 or 250 watts. That's a L3 training for me (and is exactly what I do in my workweek) so I thought we were in the same range. I am sorry to hear that it is still to hot in the gym. When is your home training equipment coming?

I have an cycleops indoortrainer with a powertap in the flywheel. So I think the numbers are pretty reliable. I was surprised that I could do 4.0 watt/kg after three weeks of training. I am now thinking about buying a powertap rear hub for my outdoor sessions. Training by power is addicted. Only yesterday was one big disappointment.

RapDaddyo wrote a while back that he was very busy with setting up an new business. Maybe that's the reason he skipped reading this forum, it cost a lot of time.

I read somewhere that you did 40 minutes easy at 240 or 250 watts. That's a L3 training for me (and is exactly what I do in my workweek) so I thought we were in the same range. I am sorry to hear that it is still to hot in the gym. When is your home training equipment coming?

I have an cycleops indoortrainer with a powertap in the flywheel. So I think the numbers are pretty reliable. I was surprised that I could do 4.0 watt/kg after three weeks of training. I am now thinking about buying a powertap rear hub for my outdoor sessions. Training by power is addicted. Only yesterday was one big disappointment.

RapDaddyo wrote a while back that he was very busy with setting up an new business. Maybe that's the reason he skipped reading this forum, it cost a lot of time.
LOL That 180W FTP figure should have read 280Watts! I can do 180Watts pedalling backwards.:D

Yesterdays 60 minutes test was a failure. Todays tests was a success!!! :D:D:D

My new FTP is 297 watts.
My power to weight ratio is now 4.30 watts / kg.

:D:D:D:D

P.S. Hey Nomad what's the temperature like in your part of Japan, and what time do you set out on your rides?
Temps have been mostly 10+ for me. Today was a cold one, with a wind chill below freezing. On Friday I was in bibs and a short sleeve jersey. 17C. No arm or leg warmers!

Here's my coming week:
http://www.mapion.co.jp/weather/admi/35/35208.html

I'm pretty happy with the temps here.3-4 days a week when I'm on nights or have the day off I'm out of the house around 9am. 2 days per week I'm out of the house after work at 3pm.

...My new FTP is 297 watts....
Nicely done Paul. I think you're selling yourself a couple of watts short. It's pretty clear that you held a higher average power for your second half hour of testing vs. the first. Unless you captured that data during a real time trial or similar highly motivating conditions I'd look at the second half and call your FTP 300-305 watts. IOW you could say your FTP is 297 at a bare minimum, but it sure looks like you could have started a few watts higher and sustained it based on how you finished.

-Dave

Temps have been mostly 10+ for me. Today was a cold one, with a wind chill below freezing. On Friday I was in bibs and a short sleeve jersey. 17C. No arm or leg warmers!

Here's my coming week:
http://www.mapion.co.jp/weather/admi/35/35208.html

I'm pretty happy with the temps here.3-4 days a week when I'm on nights or have the day off I'm out of the house around 9am. 2 days per week I'm out of the house after work at 3pm.
A fine weather cyclist I see.;) When you set out, I'm just getting home.
In the summer I start out on the Sunday ride at 4/4.30. Best time of the day - not too hot, no bloody cars and I'm back in time for breakfast.

Paul wrote:


My new FTP is 297 watts.
My power to weight ratio is now 4.30 watts / kg.

Can't match that - fantastic! Btw, how old are you Paul?

Nicely done Paul. I think you're selling yourself a couple of watts short. It's pretty clear that you held a higher average power for your second half hour of testing vs. the first. Unless you captured that data during a real time trial or similar highly motivating conditions I'd look at the second half and call your FTP 300-305 watts. IOW you could say your FTP is 297 at a bare minimum, but it sure looks like you could have started a few watts higher and sustained it based on how you finished.

-DaveYeah, that was what I thought after my first 60 minute timetrial. I opened this topic for it: http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?t=382827

Now I just use my 60 minute average power as my FTP (which I am going to test every four weeks). The last 30 minutes don't hurt as much as the first 30 minutes. I don't think I could have a higher average power when I did the first 30 minutes a little bit harder.


Can't match that - fantastic! Btw, how old are you Paul?Thanks, I am 27 years old. Training 2 to 5 hours a week since January. Before January I cycled once in a while (500km a year). I hope that I can increase my FTP with 10-15 watts / 4 weeks with this trainings regime till July :D:D

I sometimes dream about 345 watts at 69 kilograms. :o
But I think I have to spend more time one the bike for it. :(

Yeah, that was what I thought after my first 60 minute timetrial. I opened this topic for it: http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?t=382827

Now I just use my 60 minute average power as my FTP (which I am going to test every four weeks). The last 30 minutes don't hurt as much as the first 30 minutes. I don't think I could have a higher average power when I did the first 30 minutes a little bit harder.

Thanks, I am 27 years old. Training 2 to 5 hours a week since January. Before January I cycled once in a while (500km a year). I hope that I can increase my FTP with 10-15 watts / 4 weeks with this trainings regime till July :D:D

I sometimes dream about 345 watts at 69 kilograms. :o
But I think I have to spend more time one the bike for it. :(
Ah! I'm off to the gym to work harder - no hope of catching you but I shall do my best. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/bike1.gif Tyson

Unless I missed one I haven't seen RD on the board lately.
Anyone heard from him?

Unless I missed one I haven't seen RD on the board lately.
Anyone heard from him?
This was the last post from RD on the 10th inst.

I'm busy preparing to launch a new product/business.
Tyson

I've started training with the "L4 method" and it feels right. I do 5 and 10K TTs only, started four years ago never having raced before, and using my own "method" became one of the top three age-groupers in the state of Florida. My own method consisted of doing about 15 miles worth of intervals per week (of various lengths), all pretty much at max for the interval.

But I think my improvement leveled off a year or so ago and I needed to try something different. It looks like I'm now going to do about 30 miles worth of L4 per week, which is about twice as many "suffer-miles" as I was doing before (though at a slightly lower level of suffering). I'll report here on my results.

I do have a question. Should I still do the occasional speed work at max? The thing I still wonder about the L4 method is this: can I really improve my chances of averaging 25 mph in a TT if I only go 24 1/2 mph in training? Shouldn't I still do some intervals at, say, 25 1/2?

I've started training with the "L4 method" and it feels right. I do 5 and 10K TTs only, started four years ago never having raced before, and using my own "method" became one of the top three age-groupers in the state of Florida. My own method consisted of doing about 15 miles worth of intervals per week (of various lengths), all pretty much at max for the interval.

But I think my improvement leveled off a year or so ago and I needed to try something different. It looks like I'm now going to do about 30 miles worth of L4 per week, which is about twice as many "suffer-miles" as I was doing before (though at a slightly lower level of suffering). I'll report here on my results.

I do have a question. Should I still do the occasional speed work at max? The thing I still wonder about the L4 method is this: can I really improve my chances of averaging 25 mph in a TT if I only go 24 1/2 mph in training? Shouldn't I still do some intervals at, say, 25 1/2?
Unfortunately Pen, RD is not around to answer your question, and I wouldn't attempt to answer it for fear of giving you duff advice. Hopefully someone else will answer your question.
Cheers! Tyson;)

....Should I still do the occasional speed work at max?Depends on how you define max and what your goals are. For 5 and 10 mile TTs you really don't need to do max work in terms of 200 meter sprints or 30 second intervals full out.
The thing I still wonder about the L4 method is this: can I really improve my chances of averaging 25 mph in a TT if I only go 24 1/2 mph in training? Yes, doing slightly sub threshold work (sub FTP) will improve your sustainable power which will make you go faster. During the actual TT you shouldn't artificially hold back beyond your best pacing, but the training you describe will raise your sustainable power and with it your speed.
Shouldn't I still do some intervals at, say, 25 1/2?Sure, but those aren't max, they're slightly above FTP if you can hold 25 for a full TT.

As you near your genetic limits and improvement slows down with a steady diet of 95% FTP intervals like 2x20's, it pays to do some higher end L4 work like 3x10s or 2x15s or even 2x20s at up to 105% of your FTP. That should help you train those last few watts for extra sustainable speed.

When you get within 6 or 7 weeks of your target events you'll want to start your training week with some 5x5' intervals at 110% to 120% of your FTP at the time. This is VO2 max work and trains your ability to work at the very top end of your aerobic range. You'll dig into this zone towards the end of your TTs so you want to build it up a bit. Maybe we're stuck on terminology but even these intervals which are painful and will force you to maximal breathing aren't "max" intervals compared to one minute all out efforts or sprint work.

You basically want to train the energy delivery systems that you'll draw on during your target events. For a 5 and 10 mile TT specialist that means L4 (FTP) work and L5 (VO2 max) work. The higher end L4 and all of the L5 will be above your target race pace but you should still aim for a power sustainable for at least 10 minutes for L4 work and at least 3 and preferably 5 minutes for L5 work.

The key thing here is that you're training specific energy systems not strength in the classic weight lifters sense. To do that you need to stay in each zone long enough for that energy delivery system to kick into action and then a bit longer to get some training effect. It takes about 2 to 2.5 minutes to get into your VO2 max zone so to get training benefit you want to hold that power output for at least 3 minutes. It takes about 8 minutes to get your L4 systems working so you want to hold those intervals for at least 10 minutes and a bit longer is better.

This is a very different way of thinking for lots of folks that think in terms of strength, but if you analyze pedaling forces you'll see that you're only putting 30 to 40 pounds on your pedals during the hard parts of a TT. Anybody can do a lot of 40 pound leg presses, the question is whether you can do them 90 or more times a minute for the duration of your events and that doesn't require more strength, it requires better energy delivery to your working muscles. That's really what training for these events is all about and to train those systems you have to work in the appropriate ranges and for the appropriate durations. Hammering out a bunch of 1 minute max effort intervals will train your ability to tolerate lactic acid buildup and will train your muscles to work anaerobically, trouble is you don't want to get anaerobic during a 10 mile TT so you'd be training the wrong system.

Good luck and let us know how it's coming...
-Dave