It's killing me but..........

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Where is Lucy? I haven't seen a post from her in a while.

PS: Lucy maybe I'll see you on Mt. Evans in July, I want to break 3:00 this year...

Well, now that I'm finally part of the 'century club', I thought I deserved at least a quick post to introduce myself to all those who have participated in this thread whom I now feel I know so well. No skimming, I started on Page 1 and didn't do any peeking (much) until I'm now on Page 100. :) My name is Jeff, and...

My introduction to the Power Forum began back on 12/10/06 when I started my CycleOps Pro 300PT/Mt. Diablo thread (http://cyclingforums.com/t376540.html). I can firmly blame Dave for dragging me into this, as in my thread he wrote:



It's taken what seem like forever to get to 12/01/06 'here' on Page 100, but what an amazing ride. It really has played out like a reality/internet soap opera, with all the heroes and bad guys and everything else in between. I think I speak for everyone when I congratulate SillyOldTwit on his phenomenal progress and intestinal fortitude throughout. RapDaddyO's insights have bordered on prophetic at times, and experiencing his detailed understanding of the physiology of power as applied to cycling has both hastened and smoothed my transition to this next 'plane' of training. Many others also gave critical input, often in the form of excellent questions; I can't thank you all enough!

After having cycled on and off for the last 20 years using an HRM, I've made more gains to my cycling fitness since 12/26/06 than I've ever made in an entire summer of riding (more on that below). After having bought the 300PT for my wife and I for XMas, I can unequivocally state that it is the ultimate training tool. My first 20-minute power test on 12/26/06 yielded 221 watts (at 81.2 Kg). My last 20-minute test on 1/21/07 yielded 269 watts at 79.5 Kg, a mere 22% gain in less than a month. I finally bit the bullet and did a 1x60 a few days ago and got 240 watts, though had much to spare in the form of ramping it way up in the last 10 minutes in which I averaged 270 watts (I wanted to make sure I at least got a piece of data from the ordeal, so started too slow).

Since we've had a winter storm every weekend here in Colorado since December 21, it's been virtually impossible to actually get on the bike for my local time trial 'fitness indicator', Lookout Mountain here in Golden. It's about 1250' of climbing in 4.5 miles 'pillar to post', i.e. just under 6%.

Well, since starting a program of training with power only 6 weeks ago, three days ago I shattered my previous personal best (from Aug '06) up that climb by more than 2 minutes (27:44, great for me)! :eek: Prior to using power data and all the knowledge gained both from 'The Book' and what I shall now deem 'The Thread', I would be lucky to get a personal best by perhaps 30 seconds from year to year, and that after a pretty significant (for me) season of riding hills.

Anyway, I can't tell you all how thrilled I am with my progress in this short time, nor can I stand the anticipation of continuing to train toward my goal of clearing an hour up Mt. Diablo in October. I'll now check out until I've finished reading 'The Thread'. Only 20+ to go... :D

Thanks again to all!

-J\V

PS: Lucy maybe I'll see you on Mt. Evans in July, I want to break 3:00 this year...Yes, a heartwarming post. It still pleases me when I read of someone else having derived some benefit from this thread. Thanks for the congrats JH, however, all credit must go to RD for the effort involved in replying to my sometimes inane posts/questions. With the utmost patience he guided/cajoled me along the path to increased power. I'm afraid I wasn't the best of pupils due to my aversion for mathematics. I'm sure others like yourself have ingested RD's training methods to a greater extent than yours truly.

I have to confess, I'm still a bit of a feely, feely guy. I always worked hard on the trainer in the gym and recently have been hard at it again after an extended "easy period" over xmas and the New Year. Having said that, when I don't feel like training hard, I listen to my body and relax irrespective of whether I've done sufficient TTS for a given week. (feel) Hopefully, I shall have some "new" FTP figures to post in March sometime.;)

Talking about FTP - on to the short but weird dream the other day.:)

I was lying in bed thinking about the Lake Biwa ride this coming October. Those of you who have followed this thread will know that Nomad mentioned the possibility of entering for the ride too.
Anyway, I was lying there thinking that Nomad with his 325+W FTP could drag me around with my ??W FTP and we will massacre "The Smoker". http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/smoker21.gif


Soon I was fast asleep and dreaming. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/bed1.gif Nomad and I were burning rubber around Biwa. In a short space of time "The Smoker" and his speedy smoker friends "The puffers" were out of sight (behind us) and stayed there till the finish.

Nothing weird about that I hear you say. Well, next Nomad is coming back to my place for a cup of tea (very English). But my place is a large country home in England which I used to look after for a very rich US couple in their absence. How we got there from Lake Biwa in Japan, is anybody's guess.

We were walking through the woods in the grounds to the house along a very narrow trail which was littered with doggy poo. Nomad was chatting away and not watching his feet. I kept saying, "mind that", "look out", and somehow miraculously his feet missed the offending poo every time.

We are now in the kitchen and I'm trying to boil water using 2 china teacups with ornate lids, when in walks Nomad's girlfriend/wife. She was a stunner Nomad.;) So I thought I'd better make a pot of tea for 3, and espied this large teapot. However, it only had a tiny little hole in the top to put the water, and I was getting more and more frustrated.

Then we started talking about RD. I told Nomad that I think I have offended RD with my post pointing out his tardiness in producing the "Document". I said, at the time I thought it was a bit strong and maybe RD would be upset, and told Nomad that I had intended to edit it but the edit facility had disappeared.
(This is exactly what happened in my wakening hours - weird)

Nomad muttered something like, "probably, but it's not my business".

Just then a very tall elegantly dressed black couple enter the kitchen from outside and the guy says, " don't you people answer your phone", to which I replied that it was Sunday and we were probably asleep. Which of course was a lie because we had just burned up "The Smoker" et al around L.Biwa.

What these interlopers were doing in my dream I don't know, and where the dream was going next I dread to think. Luckily I woke up.:D

And finally to RD, I hereby in public apologise for offending you. It wasn't meant maliciously, however, I can see that it possibly came across as an attack.:( TYSON

And finally to RD, I hereby in public apologise for offending you. It wasn't meant maliciously, however, I can see that it possibly came across as an attack.:( TYSONThanks, but for the record I am not offended. I'm busy preparing to launch a new product/business.

Thanks, but for the record I am not offended. I'm busy preparing to launch a new product/business.I'm glad to hear that, as I was sure I had offended you.;)

I know you are busy so perhaps someone else can answer my stupid question.

I've found it more and more difficult to 2x20 intervals. After the first 20 minutes if I get off the bike to have a drink and a 3-5 minute break, I find it very difficult to get going again. I know this more a mental problem than a physical problem, because recently I don't stop after 20 minutes, just lump the 2 together and do 40 minutes at 90-95%FTP. In fact, even for L3 workouts in the gym I keep going for 40 minutes then relax into a steady upper L2 pace. (easy/rest day)

My question is this; does one derive the same benefit from 2x20 as 1x40. That is, are they the same in effect? TYSON

My question is this; does one derive the same benefit from 1x20 as 1x40. That is, are they the same in effect? TYSON

I think you mean 2x20 and 1x40? I'm pretty sure somewhere back there about 63 pages or so RDo said they were similar...

J\V

I think you mean 2x20 and 1x40? I'm pretty sure somewhere back there about 63 pages or so RDo said they were similar...

J\VOops! http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/icon_redface1.gif Thanks, I've edited it. Yeah, I thought he said they were similar but without going back 63 pages, I just wanted to confirm it. However, if they are the same why bother to split the the workout. Perhaps some guys find it easier to do 2x20 rather than 1 x40. Once I get going, I get into a pedalling and breathing rhythm which I lose once I stop and find great difficulty in getting back into said again. TYSON

Where's Lucy?

I think she left and closed the door behind her:confused:


Last Activity: 03-12.-2006

Where's Lucy?

I think she left and closed the door behind her:confused:


Last Activity: 03-12.-2006
I think she probably attained too high a wattage on her trainer and went back/forward in time. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/1011.gif

Oops! http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/icon_redface1.gif Thanks, I've edited it. Yeah, I thought he said they were similar but without going back 63 pages, I just wanted to confirm it. However, if they are the same why bother to split the the workout. Perhaps some guys find it easier to do 2x20 rather than 1 x40. Once I get going, I get into a pedalling and breathing rhythm which I lose once I stop and find great difficulty in getting back into said again. TYSON4 Lactate Threshold 91-105% power 95-105% HR (may not be achieved during initial phases of effort(s)) 4-5 PE

Just below to just above TT effort, taking into account duration, current fitness, environmental conditions, etc. Essentially continuous sensation of moderate or even greater leg effort/fatigue. Continuous conversation difficult at best, due to depth/frequency of breathing. Effort sufficiently high that sustained exercise at this level is mentally very taxing - therefore typically performed in training as multiple 'repeats', 'modules', or 'blocks' of 10-30 min duration. Consecutive days of training at level 4 possible, but such workouts generally only performed when sufficiently rested/recovered from prior training so as to be able to maintain intensity.

Excuse the formatting but that is from the *real* training bible by Dr. Coggan regarding L4 training level and philosophy.

Purely mental ...

Personally being a steady-state 'bot, I prefer 1 x 30-50 min depending on the power level. But it averages 1 x 40.

4 Lactate Threshold 91-105% power 95-105% HR (may not be achieved during initial phases of effort(s)) 4-5 PE

Just below to just above TT effort, taking into account duration, current fitness, environmental conditions, etc. Essentially continuous sensation of moderate or even greater leg effort/fatigue. Continuous conversation difficult at best, due to depth/frequency of breathing. Effort sufficiently high that sustained exercise at this level is mentally very taxing - therefore typically performed in training as multiple 'repeats', 'modules', or 'blocks' of 10-30 min duration. Consecutive days of training at level 4 possible, but such workouts generally only performed when sufficiently rested/recovered from prior training so as to be able to maintain intensity.

Excuse the formatting but that is from the *real* training bible by Dr. Coggan regarding L4 training level and philosophy.

Purely mental ...

Personally being a steady-state 'bot, I prefer 1 x 30-50 min depending on the power level. But it averages 1 x 40.
I think I've got that, but if I were to do a 20 minute interval at a higher wattage than I would a 40 minute interval, then I certainly wouldn't want to do a 2nd interval at the same level. (mental perhaps) Therefore, I think I'm better off continuing at a slightly lower wattage for 40 minutes. Tyson

I just had an idea on how to avoid the TT to determine FTP. Just did 3x20 at 19.5mph avg = 248 watts on the KK could drink easily through out without loosing speed 248 x 1.09 = 270 watts FTP. What do you think? TTs seem like such a waste of workout time.

I just had an idea on how to avoid the TT to determine FTP. Just did 3x20 at 19.5mph avg = 248 watts on the KK could drink easily through out without loosing speed 248 x 1.09 = 270 watts FTP. What do you think? TTs seem like such a waste of workout time.

Sorry, I'm not following you here. Where does the 1.09 come from, is that based on being able to drink easily? Doesn't sound like a universal factor for estimating FTP from 3x20's.

Why are TT's a waste of training time? You're getting great L4 work in during a one hour TT.

Personally I don't measure actual FTP very often, I'm more interested in tracking what I can do for my 3x20's or 2x30's or whatever I'm working on. These self correct pretty well and I usually have a real good idea what my repeatable 20 minute power is until I get one of those pleasant surprises when they start feeling easy and then I just ramp my second or third intervals accordingly. I love the "training is testing, testing is training" concept.

-Dave

When I can drink easily without loosing rythym I am at 91% FTP or less.

Sorry, I'm not following you here. Where does the 1.09 come from, is that based on being able to drink easily?

When I can drink easily without loosing rythym I am at 91% FTP or less.

It's the "91% or less" that makes me wonder about using this method. It translates to "my FTP is xxx or more".... That's cool for setting a lower bound, but doesn't really nail your FTP and I'd assume that's the goal of a one hour TT test protocol. If the idea is to get a ballpark figure then just tracking your typical 20 minute repeat power seems good enough.

That's assuming you are 100% healthy and can complete a 1 hour time trial with no interuptions. The last attempt I made in January just for the 20 minute test in Andy's book page 50 (Hunter's method) the 5 minute VO2max prep left me on the floor as it turned out I had a little bit of a stomach bug not bad enough to stop a 91% 3x20 but a VO2max ended the workout. Then I figured I'll try the next day without the VO2max but at 105% I did 10 minutes and that was it there goes another day.

Why are TT's a waste of training time? You're getting great L4 work in during a one hour TT.

I was lying in bed thinking about the Lake Biwa ride this coming October. Those of you who have followed this thread will know that Nomad mentioned the possibility of entering for the ride too.

You said this is in October, right? (thumbing back through pages.. and pages...) It's still on the "might try to make it" list.

I google-mapped my first race coming in March. It's the West Japan Road Race Championships. Because I'm not a JCF racer, I'll race in the citizen's open race. It's a 13km loop around Hiroshima Airport, x3. It's an extremely challenging course from all reports. My LBS wouldn't sign me up for it because he says too many people crash out in it.

It's a "C" race for me in March, in hopes that my "B" races in June will be reasonably successful. If it starts to get too hairy, I'll just drop off the pack and ride it as a training day. I'm going to pre-ride the course a few laps next week with the GPSr to get the best info on the course I can. Here's the gmap view:

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=663634

Hope everyone else's training is going well. I got through a tempo day today at 310W for 90 minutes! A month with Ric and I'm flyin' ;) Tomorrow is rain in the forecast so 3 hours endurance time on the trainer is in my plans. My plan is to do an hour on the trainer, an hour on the rollers and then an hour on the trainer. Lord of the Rings, here I come.

You said this is in October, right? (thumbing back through pages.. and pages...) It's still on the "might try to make it" list.

Yep, October. I'm in Okayama on the 8th for an "A" race. As long as it's not on that weekend, I should be able to make it.

That's assuming you are 100% healthy and can complete a 1 hour time trial with no interuptions. The last attempt I made in January just for the 20 minute test in Andy's book page 50 (Hunter's method) the 5 minute VO2max prep left me on the floor as it turned out I had a little bit of a stomach bug not bad enough to stop a 91% 3x20 but a VO2max ended the workout. Then I figured I'll try the next day without the VO2max but at 105% I did 10 minutes and that was it there goes another day.Yeah, I see what you mean. That's why I prefer the Monod CP when it comes time to test.

The problem I have with Hunter's 95% of 20 min. power or your 109% of sustainable 3x20 is it's just a SWAG at folk's balance of AWC to CP. Unless you know your CP (slope of your energy/time curve) any of those percentage based extrapolations are just rough guesses.

Rough guesses are fine if you're just planning your training intervals but if you really want to know your FTP (which is what testing implies) then the accuracy of those extrapolations is suspect.

Have you tried a 2 or 3 point Monod test?

-Dave

No but I will look into it I hope it doesn't involve a PT or Computrainer because I don't have one and am not ready to buy one I just have the KK.

Have you tried a 2 or 3 point Monod test?

When I can drink easily without loosing rythym I am at 91% FTP or less.
Are you SERIOUS?

Anyway testing is training. Sometimes very, very good training. I now do a 40k TT effort on the CT every Sunday evening. Just suck it up and do it :)