It's killing me but..........

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The half-dozen or so Velodynes with which I have experience have all been quite accurate (i.e., w/in 1-2%), provided that you followed the warm-up and calibration routine carefully. Still, I prefer to use a bike equipped with a powermeter on the Velodyne, for several reasons:

1) to get accurate data I don't have to wait while the Velodyne warms up, but can just hop on and train;

2) if I want to analyze the data using WKO+, being able to download the powermeter file after the fact saves me from having to capture the Velodyne data in real time using a dedicated PC (which in fact I have never actually done);

3) while it's been years since I regularly used the Velodyne in anything other than ergometer mode, using a powermeter means that I could ride a simulated course and later download the data (see #2); and

4) having the powermeter on the bike gives me something else to entertain myself while riding, e.g., I can record intervals, see my cadence or heart rate*, etc.

Having said all of the above, if you already own a Velodyne (or CompuTrainer), the only reason you really need a powermeter is to be able to measure your power when cycling outdoors.Andy, all of your points are good ones. I think the tradeoff for Tyson is an interesting one. Here's a guy who does 90% of his riding on a trainer. He typically gets out for a road ride on Sundays only. So, his trainer setup is not for rainy or cold days, it's his primary ride. I think there are (at least) two very interesting choices at about the same dollar cost: (1) KK + PT SL and (2) CT Pro. Either option will cost him ~US$1600. The main advantages of the KK+PT option are that he will (possibly) have more accurate measurement of power and he will have power for his weekly road rides (and occasional race). The main advantage of the CT option is that he will have an ergometer and not just a trainer. The value of an ergometer would seem to be a function of the cyclist and his/her training habits. I like the idea of a pre-programmed workout. I would rather make the decision about what kind of workout I want to do sitting in front of my computer because I'm not sure my brain is capable of rational thought when sweat is pouring off my head and my legs hurt so badly that I want to stop pedaling altogether in spite of the fact that I have another 2 minutes to go at VO2MAX. Given a choice, I might stop. If it's pre-programmed, I'm likely to continue and curse Andy upon completion.:D

Is it important that the power measurement number is exactly correct or is it sufficient that the number is consistent from day to day. Obviously consistency is better and I did say all the devices named are consistent as well as being accurate. Where it becomes an issue is when you want to compare season to season progress but decide to change measurement tools.

Will Tyson be using any form of analysis software such as Cycling Peaks? I don't know how hard/easy it is to use Computrainer or Velodyne for that. I do know with the Powertap it is super easy to download data into the software.

I see your point about the emphasis being indoors.

If the budget constraint is not there, I agree a Computrainer/Velodyne with a Powertap/SRM (and Cycling Peaks) would be a fantastic set up. All bases covered.

Will Tyson be using any form of analysis software such as Cycling Peaks? I don't know how hard/easy it is to use Computrainer or Velodyne for that. I do know with the Powertap it is super easy to download data into the software.A few months ago, I would have said, "Not in a million years." But, he seems to be gradually coming around to the world of power acronyms. I fully expect to see Performance Manager numbers from him during 2007.:D

I think there is a little confusion here. IMO, if one has a CompuTrainer Pro or Velodyne there is no reason for an additional power measurement device (PT or SRM or whatever) for the indoor rides. The CT Pro and Velodyne measure power with completely acceptable accuracy. In fact, I'm not certain that the PT or SRM do measure actual power more accurately. I'm sure that one of the guys who has both can weigh in on any differences they see (if any). The PT or SRM or whatever on-bike PM would be of value for road rides, but I see it as completely redundant data for indoor rides on a CompuTrainer or Velodyne.Yes, I meant KK while speaking about CompuTrainer.
I think a cheap ergometer with an powertap rearwheel is one of the the best/cheapest options for indoor and outdoor training with power.

Tyson, what are you going to buy?

Tyson is probably about ready to buy a noose the way you all are going on! The great thing about going the Kurt Kinetic/Powertap route is that you never have to think to yourself "That was a great ride I did outside, I wonder if that was a personal best?"

That's why I went with the Powertap in October. If I was going to use power, I wanted to have it available all the time (and I went to the powertap because I intend to buy a second bike and want power all the time without a second system or dismantling the cranks)

Tyson is probably about ready to buy a noose the way you all are going on!Well who am I to give advice, I don't like riding trainers and don't have to:).

OK - let's play hangman....
Here's something you measure while riding with a power meter. Ten letters.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Well who am I to give advice, I don't like riding trainers and don't have to:).

OK - let's play hangman....
Here's something you measure while riding with a power meter. Ten letters.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _Is there an "R"?

Jim

I'm sure it's been covered before but....

In an either/or (semi budget-constrained) situation, I think you would be better with a Powertap power meter and a reasonable indoor trainer (like the Kurt Kinetic often mentioned). This will enable the flexibility to accurately measure power for any ride you do on your bike, whether on a trainer or outdoors. This would be the first priority (aside from actually training of course;)) as having power data from all rides is such a highly valuable training aid.

While the Computrainer (or Velodyne) also measures power output with accuracy* the additional benefit is it also enables you to pre-set a resistance level (in watts), hence you can programme a workout and just ride it - the machine will automatically set the resistance for you.

The latter is useful when doing testing, you really want to target a specific wattage level, or want to use a pre-programmed course to help relieve the boredom of indoor training. But of course if you don't have a Powertap (or other on bike power meter) then you can't measure power when out on the road.


* these are accurate, reliable and long life training machines. They may not however exactly match the power output shown on a Powertap (or other on bike power meters). Much depends on the calibration, set up and the error range of each power measurement device. But they will be pretty close and will be consistent and often they can be modified so that they match exactly.

I have ridden one Computrainer with PT a few times and the CT was consistently reading about 5-6% higher than my PT. I have never ridden a Velodyne.I don't know about the Velodyne but three circa 2002 CT's that I tested here in fall 2004 were close to my PT Pro. Close but not close enough for me :)
Each CT read low: 4.5%, 5% and 8% taken over several ramp tests in a moderate gear and wheel speed.

On my own, I had taken enough data over ergo mode, handlebar mode and 3D mode to ensure there was no 'mode' difference, there was no zero-offset issue and only the slope needed adjusting.

With help of certain 'others' or was it one :), I developed a one-time procedure that allows the CT to be 'aligned' with one's PM of choice. I won't say calibrated as that implies that PM is 100% accurate to start with.

I was much happier when I dialed my CT to match my PT back then and haven't had reason to tweak it since. The biggest delta I currently see is perhaps 5W when doing a long hard L4 interval and most of that is due to ergo drift/heating over a long period (despite my external cooling fan). For shorter or less intense work, they usually match to within 3W or < 1%.

p.s. No I don't work for Racermate :)

Is there an "R"?

JimNope

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I/
I
I
I
III
III
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_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.. E

.. E_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ E _

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....I/
....I
....I
....I
...III
...III
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S

and with that I do need to get on the bike. 4 hours outside for me! Eat your heart out people in winter lands.

S

and with that I do need to get on the bike. 4 hours outside for me! Eat your heart out people in winter lands.Getting warmer....

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ E S

....______
....I/
....I
....I
....I
...III
...III
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Getting warmer....

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ E S

....______
....I/
....I
....I
....I
...III
...III
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This isn't one of those silly oz words is it?

T

This isn't one of those silly oz words is it?

TNo

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ E S

.... _______
.... I/ .. O
.... I
.... I
.... I
... III
... III
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I'm taking advantage of the rest of the world being asleep.

Vanna, do you have a "A"?

I'm taking advantage of the rest of the world being asleep.

Vanna, do you have a "A"?Nope. I can feel that noose tightening....

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ E S

.... ______
.... I/ .. O
.... I .. /|
.... I ...
.... I ..
... III
.. /III\
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Have just checked in and read all the conflicting advice. But then that is what these forums are all about. If we all thought and bought the same what a boring world it would be. My last 4 cars have been Toyotas and probably the next one will also be a Toyota. Am I buying a car with the best safety record, the lowest fuel consumtion, the most comfortable seating etc? Probably not but I like them.

The same most likely applies to trainers. You view all the options, make a decision and go with it. At the end of the day, what is it all about? Substantially increasing your power and being able to stay with the pack for longer, climb better etc.
I'm pretty sure there is more than 1 trainer that will help you in achieving your goal. After all it is "heart" that really counts, and having the "best machine in the world" won't get you there without it.

So what am I going to plump for? Suffice to say, negotiations are going on in the background.;) TYSON

Nope. I can feel that noose tightening....
K, please?

kilojoules