It's killing me but..........

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I am now starting to convince myself that I like the discomforting burning feeling in my legs just like I had to convince myself long ago that I loved the pain of doing squats.That's huge! If you can increase your tolerance of the discomfort in your legs (mainly the quads), you will dramatically increase your sustainable power. I still believe that the most powerful drug for cycling performance will be the one that selectively targets this discomfort in the brain and (for a few hours) blunts this receptor. Of course, somebody will immediately add it to the banned substance list. Before long, carbohydrates will be on the banned substance list because, of course, carbohydrates allow you to ride faster. They're even debating whether to ban the use of altitude simulation devices because that gives one an edge (basically, it's legal EPO). Then, of course, they will have to ban training at altitude. I guess the Swiss will have to be banned in total.

Once you find this semi comfortable hurt zone after about 20 minutes of this check your HRM that is probably your sweet spot (low L4 91% FTP) plus or minus 5 bpm.Does this number change from day to day?

At 91% FTP my HRM after 20 minutes at that pace usually says 159bpm and stays within 5bpm of this as I slightly adjust pace up or down to keep the average watts on target. If the target watts is raised to match my new FTP the first week the bpm is a little higher maybe 164bpm plus or minus 5bpm but eventually gets back to the 159bpm again during the second week. I could probably do these workouts just by staying above the 159bpm intensity.

Does this number change from day to day?

At 91% FTP my HRM after 20 minutes at that pace usually says 159bpm and stays within 5bpm of this as I slightly adjust pace up or down to keep the average watts on target. If the target watts is raised to match my new FTP the first week the bpm is a little higher maybe 164bpm plus or minus 5bpm but eventually gets back to the 159bpm again during the second week. I could probably do these workouts just by staying above the 159bpm intensity.So your HR at ~91%FTP is consistently ~159? My HR is not nearly as consistent from day to day. For example, in a 25min ride segment yesterday, my NP was 283W and my HR was 153bpm. In a 15min segment today, my NP was 278W and my HR was 150bpm. That's a pretty big change in HR for a 5W difference in power.

I am not taking average heart rate just what the HRM says in the last minute of a 20 minute interval on the KK. Then I make note of the gear combo and cadence that got me there and repeat it again. I don't mix any other levels in with this workout it is strictly L4 with less than a 1 minute warm up and cool down. I'm becoming a 91% purist.:)

So your HR at ~91%FTP is consistently ~159? My HR is not nearly as consistent from day to day. For example, in a 25min ride segment yesterday, my NP was 283W and my HR was 153bpm. In a 15min segment today, my NP was 278W and my HR was 150bpm. That's a pretty big change in HR for a 5W difference in power.

I am not taking average heart rate just what the HRM says in the last minute of a 20 minute interval on the KK. Then I make note of the gear combo and cadence that got me there and repeat it again. I don't mix any other levels in with this workout it is strictly L4 with less than a 1 minute warm up. I'm becoming a 91% purist.:)That's a good plan to take the ending HR rather than the average because it probably drifted at least 5bpm during the interval. My problem is that my HR should be at ~145bpm at 275-280W when I am fit. So, my HR simply reveals how unfit I am right now.

The statement in bold is quite an amazing declaration. If what you say is true, what is it physiologically that gives up the ghost? I know one can say it's the legs and the quads in particular, but I assume it's the lactic acid buildup in the limbs that serves as the limiting factor. Of course if the lactic acid accumulation reaches a certain level you black out.
Again I assume this is the body's natural defence aimed at protecting the vital organs.
However, getting back to your assertion that the heart is not the limiting factor. If you are working out at or near your HRMax, isn't the lactic acid build up more rapid, eventually stopping you in your tracks? Or put another way, your heart cannot work at it's max for ever because other factors come into play preventing this from holding true.
Apologies RD if I have confused things as I usually manage to do.:DIt's far more complex than simply lactic acid. Lactic acid (which exists as lactic acid only very briefly) and blood lactate get a lot of attention because blood lactate is easily measurable and is a good proxy variable for intensity of exercise. When I discuss the processes involved as one increases intensity, I use the attached chart which I call "Acidosis." It just summarizes all the things that are going on (and interrelated) as one increases intensity. I'm not sure anybody actually knows why the body can't perform at a given high level of intensity other than for brief durations. It's certainly not lactic acid or blood lactate. And it is certainly not the heart. Call it fatigue for lack of a more precise term. I call it acidosis.

It's far more complex than simply lactic acid. Lactic acid (which exists as lactic acid only very briefly) and blood lactate get a lot of attention because blood lactate is easily measurable and is a good proxy variable for intensity of exercise. When I discuss the processes involved as one increases intensity, I use the attached chart which I call "Acidosis." It just summarizes all the things that are going on (and interrelated) as one increases intensity. I'm not sure anybody actually knows why the body can't perform at a given high level of intensity other than for brief durations. It's certainly not lactic acid or blood lactate. And it is certainly not the heart. Call it fatigue for lack of a more precise term. I call it acidosis.
Thanks for that RD, I did think I'd dumbded it down a little too far. I think we can safely say though, that it is not the heart per se that limits one's performance when doing very high intensity training. Another reason perhaps for not relying too much on your HR meter in your workouts. It's possible you could be limiting yourself to training at a lower level than you are actually capable of.

FWIW I read some where that heart muscle can actually burn lactic acid as fuel while other muscles cann't. I think if you went hard enough long enough without a quick replacement (fortified drink of some kind) of minerals like magnesium for example your heart could not relax between beats and sudden death heart attack can occur. Another important mineral is silica there is more silica in the aorta than in any other place in the body it makes it more resilient long term deficiency can cause problems with the heart.
LOL Very comforting post that WD. Just one question; I know everyone is different, but what in your estimation is "long enough" as you stated above assuming one is working near maxHR?
Also you seem to be contradicting RD's assertion that the heart is capable of running at it's maxium output basically for ever.

Aren't some of you guys the ones poking fun the HRM a couple months ago? :)


I don't know if you are including me in that statement FR, but as I said in an earlier post today.

Moral of the story - forget HR - wind it up to 350W and pedal like a maniac.
;) Tyson

I agree with RD as long as minerals are replaced as fast as they are lost and no long term deficiencies or over doses of nutrients exists the heart will out work any muscle in the body. So eat your greens.:)
http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com/report.asp?story=Breakthrough%20heart%20drug%20prevents%20sudden%20death&catagory=Drugs,%20Magnesium,%20Heart%20Disease

LOL Very comforting post that WD. Just one question; I know everyone is different, but what in your estimation is "long enough" as you stated above assuming one is working near maxHR?
Also you seem to be contradicting RD's assertion that the heart is capable of running at it's maxium output basically for ever.

Thanks for that RD, I did think I'd dumbded it down a little too far. I think we can safely say though, that it is not the heart per se that limits one's performance when doing very high intensity training. Another reason perhaps for not relying too much on your HR meter in your workouts. It's possible you could be limiting yourself to training at a lower level than you are actually capable of.The main reason to not rely too much on a HRM is that your HR is only a proxy variable for intensity of effort and not a very good one at that. For the record, I have no problem with heart rate monitors. I just attach little value to HR data for managing intensity of effort in the most important training levels (L4-L7).

I agree with RD as long as minerals are replaced as fast as they are lost and no long term deficiencies or over doses of nutrients exists the heart will out work any muscle in the body. So eat your greens.:)
http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com/report.asp?story=Breakthrough%20heart%20drug%20prevents%20sudden%20death&catagory=Drugs,%20Magnesium,%20Heart%20Disease
Interesting link that WD, but I would take issue with the comment near the end that one cannot find sufficient magnesium in a normal diet.Sounds like they're plugging supplements which except for protein powder, I don't believe in.
There is plenty of magnesium in;

Leafy vegetables
Soya beans
Cashew nuts
Almonds
Broccoli
Whole grains
Wheatgerm
Bananas
Prunes.

Except for soya beans and cashew nuts, I eat some or all of the above most days. TYSON

If you can get all the protein you need from a peice of meat the size of a deck of cards why would you take protein powder? .....No T-bone steak for me dear I have my protein shake......Roasted chicken.... Lemon pepper haddock no thats ok I'll just have my protein shake...... Yuck! Peanut butter on wholewheat toast is even a complete protein..... Why am I hungry all of a sudden.:)

Interesting link that WD, but I would take issue with the comment near the end that one cannot find sufficient magnesium in a normal diet.Sounds like they're plugging supplements which except for protein powder, I don't believe in.
There is plenty of magnesium in;

Leafy vegetables
Soya beans
Cashew nuts
Almonds
Broccoli
Whole grains
Wheatgerm
Bananas
Prunes.

Except for soya beans and cashew nuts, I eat some or all of the above most days. TYSON

If you can get all the protein you need from a peice of meat the size of a deck of cards why would you take protein powder? .....No T-bone steak for me dear I have my protein shake......Roasted chicken.... Lemon pepper haddock no thats ok I'll just have my protein shake...... Yuck! Peanut butter on wholewheat toast is even a complete protein..... Why am I hungry all of a sudden.:)
LOL WD, However, when I come back from the gym utterely ravenous (and knackered), the last thing I want to do is start cooking a chateaubriand; just bung 1 cup of water, 1 cup of fat free milk, 1 banana, 6 teaspoons of fat free yogurt and 2 spoons of peach flavoured protein powder in the blender and Tyson's your uncle. Yummee! :D

Talk about high power. Forget it, power high is the greater experience of the two.

Set off at 6.30 this morning with the temperature at 2 degrees C. There was a gusty wind blowing so I reckon with the chill factor it was definitely minus. I was frozen and stopped at a coffee machine in the middle of the rice paddies (vending machines are everywhere in Japan)to get a coffee; not to drink but to just hold to get some life back into my fingers. Roared up my 15%ter but was still frozen.
On the way home the sun came up over the mountains, and I could feel it shining on my back. Suddenly for the first time on the ride I felt good and inspired and started to ramp up the power. I overtook a motor scooter which was doing 50kph and felt absolutely exhilerated, so I ramped it up some more. I was still not producing my maximum power (whatever that is), but the power high was out of this world, and for a time I felt invincible. (self-delusion;) ) but nevertheless it's a sensation I want to experience again.

I think I'm back on the "give me more power -- I've got to have more power"
trip again. I definitely need to consult a shrink before they carry me away screaming "MORE POWER, MORE POWER" !!!!:D

I think I'm back on the "give me more power -- I've got to have more power" trip again. I definitely need to consult a shrink before they carry me away screaming "MORE POWER, MORE POWER" !!!!:DCool.:cool: Welcome back!:D

I definitely need to consult a shrink before they carry me away screaming "MORE POWER, MORE POWER" !!!!:D
If you're crazy and no one figures it out you win just whisper "more power" when your in the shower.:)

Talk about high power. Forget it, power high is the greater experience of the two.
Careful now....it's addictive you know ;) and welcome back :D

What's with all this welcome back?:confused: Have I been somewhere I don't know about?:D