It's killing me but..........

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What's happening is that the cycling gurus (scientists, coaches and athletes) are gravitating to riding with power and discussing training concepts with a (rapidly expanding) power vocabulary.
Additionally, the concepts of energy and power physically describe what's happening on the bike. Our bodies are little engines converting energy from food into motion, and the rate of that energy conversion is power. Improving that rate of energy conversion is the goal of training. Without understanding the concepts of energy and power, one is stuck in the mysticism of "Ride like so for X minutes, then do Y minutes as such". The energy/power principles apply whether one is using power, HR, cadence, speed, or RPE as a basis of their training program.

The energy/power principles apply whether one is using power, HR, cadence, speed, or RPE as a basis of their training program.Bingo!:D

Well, Tyson, today was pretty amazing. They held the Silverman Triathlon here in Las Vegas today. Conditions were brutal. After benign conditions for weeks, today was cold and windy. Winds were 20-25mph and the course was almost completely exposed to the winds for ~90 miles. I went for a ride with three of my buddies this morning and we were barely making 18mph with 300W of power into the wind. Tyler Hamilton was on a team trying to break 8 hours and win $100K. He rode an amazing race, finishing the ride (112 miles) in 4:33. We saw him at mile 105 and he was flying, looked very comfortable. He made the transition and, even with a 4min penalty for blowing through the dismount point (he's not used to tri rules), the runner on the team needed only a 2:35 marathon to win the $100K. The runner ran the 1st 13.1 miles at 1:12 and the team looked to be a lock for the $100K prize. But, the runner crashed and burned badly in the 2nd half and had trouble running 7min miles at the end. He literally limped across the finish line for 2nd place after being passed in the last 300 meters. I'm sure Hamilton was devastated after an amazing ride given the conditions. Did I say brutal conditions? Trust me, they were brutal. Too bad.:(

But, you've done a very smart thing to begin reading the power discussions. What's happening is that the cycling gurus (scientists, coaches and athletes) are gravitating to riding with power and discussing training concepts with a (rapidly expanding) power vocabulary. But, many who don't own a power meter think, "Why would I want to read those threads or buy that book because that's exclusively for those with a power meter." That's where they are wrong. You don't actually have to have a power meter to train with power, especially if you have a trainer. Sure, it's a huge plus, but not essential. So, I'd say you're ahead of the curve.:DI experimented this morning with uploading my data from the Garmin Edge to a demo version of WKO+ just to start getting familiar with the software. :)

Abbreviations......charts......I just know how to lift heavy objects:)

Do you think there will be a "Training with Power for Dummies" book coming soon?

Abbreviations......charts......I just know how to lift heavy objects:)

Do you think there will be a "Training with Power for Dummies" book coming soon?
I think that's the intent of RDO's upcoming posts. It sounds like help is on the way! :)

I experimented this morning with uploading my data from the Garmin Edge to a demo version of WKO+ just to start getting familiar with the software. :)

Abbreviations......charts......I just know how to lift heavy objects:)

Do you think there will be a "Training with Power for Dummies" book coming soon?LOL. How true, how true. Yes, we definitely need to simplify the jargon. I'm working on a piece for Tyson and I'll try to simplify it as much as possible and explain any terms that I use from the power meter dictionary.:D

LOL. How true, how true. Yes, we definitely need to simplify the jargon. I'm working on a piece for Tyson and I'll try to simplify it as much as possible and explain any terms that I use from the power meter dictionary.:DHow about a sticky on the power forum covering all the acronyms?

How about a sticky on the power forum covering all the acronyms?Good idea. The document I am working on for this thread will have the most often referenced terms and acronyms. I'll extract the acronyms part and post it (for additions/amendments) and then send it to Steve to see if he can post it as a sticky.

True, but how many people who don't own a power meter spend much time reading about power meter terminology? Probably very few.I do. Hell I even came up with my own system so I could "play along at home".

Has this thread become its own sub-forum where people don't view the rest of the info that's being posted?Yes, it's unweildy at the current length. I occasionally say I'm going to try and catch up with this but never do. I randomly click on the last page to see what was posted, like today.

I'm slowly weaning off bikeforums.net.bikeforums.net is hands down the biggest source of disinformation about biking I have seen in all of the Internet. The only forum I occasionally look at now is the winter riding one.

bikeforums.net is hands down the biggest source of disinformation about biking I have seen in all of the Internet. The only forum I occasionally look at now is the winter riding one.
I enjoy Bikeforums.net for what it is, The National Inquirer of cycling;)

If you want information or debate you come here:cool:

Just finished reading this behemoth of a thread (a three evening effort!) and wanted to thank all of the major players (especially Tyson and RD) for the inspiration, advice, and stories. I really didn't think my attention span would facilitate a straight read with no skimming, but this stuff is oddly captivating. I am relatively new to cycling after six years of inactivity and ten years of smoking. I have been "training" haphazardly for a year and a half, have been smoke-free for almost a year, and have had a road bike for 4 months. Before the road bike I used a 32lb. full suspension MTB. As an engineer, RD's data-based training style appeals to me. Since starting this thread, I have gone through countless versions of my own training spreadsheets. My bastardized training system involves a KK trainer and a Wal-Mart special rear-sensing computer. Power is derived from speed. No heart rate, since my Polar mount failed on a recent MTB ride, ejecting my expensive HRM/computer onto the autumn leaf covered Connecticut forest floor, never to be found again. So here I am, starting form scratch with a real training plan, inspired by this thread. The Coggan/Allen book is on the way. FTP appears to be approx 205W. Science is wonderful, isn't it? Now onto the art.

Just finished reading this behemoth of a thread (a three evening effort!)Wow! It used to be a testament to endurance to read this thread about 1,000 posts ago. Now, it's almost beyond comprehension. Well done.:D

My bastardized training system involves a KK trainer and a Wal-Mart special rear-sensing computer. Power is derived from speed. No heart rate, since my Polar mount failed on a recent MTB ride...The Coggan/Allen book is on the way.Actually, you have just the right tool set. If the Wal-Mart computer doesn't work, you can get a Cateye or something similar for <$100. Keep us posted on your progress. Good luck.:D

My admiration for Tyson has reached a new level. I reviewed my L4 workout for the last 8 weeks. It seems that not only is my power very weak, but I'm also a slow responder. Good thing I'm persistent. Here is my training log. Anybody have any suggestions?(Quitting isn't one I want to hear. I realize I don't have the genes to ever be fast, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the sport (or my own improvements!)


week 1
1.) 2x20 at 167 watts,
2.) 2x20 at 185 watts,
3.) =149 watts x60(too easy)

week 2
1.) 185x20, 205x20, 185x20,
2.)185x20, 205x20, 205x20
3.)185x20, 205x20, 205x20

week 3
1.)(205x20)x2, 149 x 10felt terrible
2.) 205 x 60 best day
3.) 205x30, 205x10, 225x5

week 4
1.) (205x20)x2, 225 x 5
2.) (205x20)x2 3.)attempted 20 min l4 on road bike by hr

week5
1. 185/205 x 20, (205x20)x2
2.)same
3.) same

week6
1.) 185/205 x 20, (205x20)x2, 225x10
2.)185/205x20, 205x20, (225x10) x 2
3.) same

week 7
1.) 185/205x20, 205x20, (225 x10) x 2
2.) same
3.) same

My admiration for Tyson has reached a new level. I reviewed my L4 workout for the last 8 weeks. It seems that not only is my power very weak, but I'm also a slow responder.Don't be too quick to write off your progress. You have gone from a "best case" FTP of 185W to a "worst case" FTP of 205W in 3 weeks (1x60 @ 205W). This may look like a 10% increase, but it's actually a 50% increase physiologically. The fact that you appear to have stayed at ~205 for a few weeks is common. What is likely to happen is that you will get a big jump (out of the blue). Your 205W workouts will just seem "too easy." My guess is that you will bounce from 205W to ~220W in one jump. Remember, gains get tougher the further up the ladder you go.

TDL
I haven't been at the L4 intervals for too long but I can share with you my experience and thoughts:

1. Riding on the trainer feels like riding through sand on my mountain bike.
I have to reduce my expectations of what wattage I'm trying to maintain on the trainer. Only after weeks of practice can I get within 10W of my 20min average power on the road. For the first few weeks I was 40W lower on the trainer. (I have just ordered a new Kurt Kinetic Pro trainer with an 18lb flywheel so that should help.)

2. A few times during every 20 min interval I have to spin up for 10 - 30 seconds so that I can drop back down and it feels "easier." I do this all the time climbing hills on the road/mountain and it helps there too.

3. One day everything felt easier. That was a good day. There has been a few of those but not alot.

4. I still don't know if I can tell the difference between low L4, mid L4 and high L4. Its all very fuzzy and depends on the day.

5. When I ride the road bike (on the road) I definitely feels stronger. I have noticed that over the last few weeks even though when I look any specific rides peak 20M , 30M and 60M average power they are sometimes lower, my entire ride Average Power is constantly climbing every week.

Keep it up! I intend to follow this program all winter. I will mix it with one or 2 days a week of 5 min hill intervals on my MTB, but I think its a winner.

One day everything felt easier. That was a good day. There has been a few of those but not alot.

I have noticed that over the last few weeks even though when I look any specific rides peak 20M , 30M and 60M average power they are sometimes lower, my entire ride Average Power is constantly climbing every week.These are both signs that your fitness is improving. You should also find that you can recover more quickly after an effort. I did a ride with a buddy of mine yesterday. After ~10mins on front at ~105%FTP, I was pretty tired and let my buddy take the front. We pulled up to a stop light in ~2mins and I was ready to go again.

TDL

5. When I ride the road bike (on the road) I definitely feels stronger. I have noticed that over the last few weeks even though when I look any specific rides peak 20M , 30M and 60M average power they are sometimes lower, my entire ride Average Power is constantly climbing every week.

Keep it up! I intend to follow this program all winter. I will mix it with one or 2 days a week of 5 min hill intervals on my MTB, but I think its a winner.
I have only been on my road bike one time in the last 7 weeks. I was planning to utilize the trainer for a few months in hopes that I might make enough gains to actually "feel" the improvement when I finally rode the bike again. Thanks for the tips! I have taken it pretty easy this week and plan to increase my trainer time a little more starting next week.

I have only been on my road bike one time in the last 7 weeks. I was planning to utilize the trainer for a few months in hopes that I might make enough gains to actually "feel" the improvement when I finally rode the bike again.I don't know what the weather is like by you but riding the road bike once every two months does NOT sound like fun. I think even Tyson took a ride on the road every Sunday. I wouldn't spend so much time between road rides that I forgot how I felt 2 months ago on my last ride.