It's killing me but..........

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This thread illustrates what I'm talking about http://www.cyclingforums.com/t372654.html. Now, what's going on? Are people trying to impress each other with their acronym vocabulary? Not at all. What's going on is that new measures are now available thanks to TrainingPeaks WKO+ and Performance Manager (PM). These measures enable us to be precise and specific when talking about training stress and adaptations from either the bird's eye view (aggregate) or the worm's eye view (detail). They allow us to get out of the mushy, inexact world of anecdotes ("I did a hard, 2-hr ride on Monday and another hard 3-hour ride on Tuesday. Should I take a day off?") and elevate the discussion to one of much more specificity. Everybody who uses WKO+ and PM can relate immediately to a ride with TSS of 75 (not much more than a warmup) versus 300 (whew!) or a CTL of 50 (ho-hum) versus 150 (Superman). If you can tune in to the vocabulary, you will be able to tap some of the best resources on this forum because many of them use WKO+ and PM.:D
OK, OK, I promise I'll try to learn all the terminology before next Tuesday. Meanwhile I'm still on holiday and am just going to Mister Donuts for coffee and cake. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_4_7.gif

OK, OK, I promise I'll try to learn all the terminology before next Tuesday. Meanwhile I'm still on holiday and am just going to Mister Donuts for coffee and cake. Well I know we've referred to SST but sounds like STT to me. Sweet Tooth Training :p

Well I know we've referred to SST but sounds like STT to me. Sweet Tooth Training :p
Just joining in. This has to absolutely be the longest thread I've ever seen. I started reading it because it was at the top of the board. Then I saw the date.... Jan '06! Then... shame on me, I looked at the number of pages. NINETY-SEVEN

Cripes, you all talk a lot.

I'm newer to these boards because I'm cranky and dissatisfied with the other forums I've been reading for some time. You'll see me around here, the power forums, and the road racing forums.

Look forward to getting to know ya'll.

VW

Meanwhile I'm still on holiday and am just going to Mister Donuts for coffee and cake. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_4_7.gif

...and surfing the internet for funny pictures and animations, apparently. :)

I'm newer to these boards because I'm cranky and dissatisfied with the other forums I've been reading for some time.VWGidday. Which ones?

Curlew, I believe what you quoted was a VO2max workout, but I don't remember the context of that post so I can't be sure what he was describing. You might go back to take a look. :)

Edit: Eh, I could be wrong. I just remembered that he prefers to do his workouts at the bottom of each zone.Hmmm, I could have made a mistake here too. I got that quote from my database of helpful training tips. It was filed under "AWC" and "pearls" but I didn't record the source and date so I can't provide the context. I shouldn't attribute that quote to RD and it shouldn't be taken as a way to improve AWC. I can't edit it out at this point. I am sorry for the confusion!!!

The upcoming discussion of TSS, ATL, CTL and TSB will give us some tools that will help us understand the issues involved in the timing of AWC development in an annual cycle of training.

RD wrote:

Tyson, I will weigh in on your question (and, hopefully, others will as well). But, I wanted to give you advance notice that I will be using WKO+ and Performance Manager terminology. You might want to get up to speed with the terminology by reading this http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com...ancemanager.asp (http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanager.asp). I also intend to discuss training stress in terms of TSS by training level.

Great! We have our homework assignment but I am wondering if we are allowed to have food in this class? Somebody save me a seat up front!

Gidday. Which ones?I'm slowly weaning off bikeforums.net. They seem to be a lot more high traffic but it's typically more about what to wear and how to look better than the next guy, with a sizable serving of cynicism. There's some great folks over there, but the majority of info on actual riding takes a lot of effort to search for. Granted, I'm still about ready to order a full bibs/jersey from there - but I should at least be able to say "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" right? :D

In honesty, they do have a lot of good info, but I definitely was looking for a change. I came here mostly for the power training forums which I've heard a lot of good about. But seems a little more chatty here too.

The upcoming discussion of TSS, ATL, CTL and TSB will give us some tools that will help us understand the issues involved in the timing of AWC development in an annual cycle of training.We'll have Tyson squawking in no time, "I'm a feel kind of guy, don't give me all these numbers and formulas." I'll be very sympathetic, as in, "Tough!":D

The upcoming discussion of TSS, ATL, CTL and TSB will give us some tools that will help us understand the issues involved in the timing of AWC development in an annual cycle of training.
Upcoming discussion? :confused: The rest of the forum (and especially the Power Training forum) have been discussing those items for months (years in the case of TSS). Has this thread become its own sub-forum where people don't view the rest of the info that's being posted?

If so, its time to branch out a bit people -- you're missing a lot. :)

Upcoming discussion? :confused: The rest of the forum (and especially the Power Training forum) have been discussing those items for months (years in the case of TSS). Has this thread become its own sub-forum where people don't view the rest of the info that's being posted?

If so, its time to branch out a bit people -- you're missing a lot. :)I've been trying to soak up all this information here and on the power forum, but it's a little overwhelming at times. :)

I might be on the same road as Tyson, but much further back. He probably knows and understands more cycling abbreviations than I. :D

Upcoming discussion? :confused: The rest of the forum (and especially the Power Training forum) have been discussing those items for months (years in the case of TSS). Has this thread become its own sub-forum where people don't view the rest of the info that's being posted?

If so, its time to branch out a bit people -- you're missing a lot. :)Remember, this is the Cycling Training forum and many reading this thread don't have a power meter or WKO+. Ergo, many are equally unfamiliar with the lingo. But, I want to introduce the power training terminology to the discussion of an aggregate training plan because with it I can simply be more succinct, precise and clear in my remarks about total training stress and the components of training stress (L4 vs. L5 vs. L6). So, anybody reading this thread who is not already au courant needs to get up to speed on the lingo before they will be able to understand the advice.;)

I arrived at the start and for my 25 dollar/13 pound entrance fee I was given one bottle of crappy sports drink (sugar water). Pocari Sweat?

I tell you, those climbs in Japan are great. I did quite a bit of riding in Ibaraki a few times while there for work and thoroughly enjoyed it. Coming from a place in the US with no hills whatsoever (seriously, the average elevation gain is around 1 foot/mile and the biggest "hills" are overpasses) it was a treat. Thank goodness for all my threshold training. Those 8-12% Japanese hills were a piece of cake.

Tyson, you're going to be jealous (or at least you should be). Tomorrow I will have the chance to watch at least a small part of an awesome bike race. Tomorrow is the Silverman Triathlon here in Las Vegas http://www.silvermannv.com/. This is a full triathlon (Ironman-style) with a 2.4mi swim, 112mi bike ride and full marathon run. There is a $100K prize to the team that can beat 8 hrs total elapsed time (Tyler Hamilton is a member of one of the teams competing for the $100K prize). The course is on my side of town, so I ride the route in whole or in part just about every week. The bike ride is a tough route with almost 10K feet of gross climbing http://www.silvermannv.com/download/3_course_maps.pdf. Tomorrow will be breezy (10-20mph from the North), so it's going to require a huge effort to get under 8 hours. My club is doing a ride in the morning and then we're going to watch the first few teams near the finish of the bike ride. We will be on Horizon Ridge (one of my regular climbs). They will be descending and the speeds should be pretty high because the grade is ~6%. It should be interesting to see what kind of speed they carry down the hill, given that they will have ridden ~100 miles at that point. When we descend that hill on club rides, we regularly get up to 40mph, so it'll be fun to see what they'll be doing.

Remember, this is the Cycling Training forum and many reading this thread don't have a power meter or WKO+. Ergo, many are equally unfamiliar with the lingo.
All the more reason to branch out and do some independent reading.

All the more reason to branch out and do some independent reading.True, but how many people who don't own a power meter spend much time reading about power meter terminology? Probably very few.

Probably very few.
Yes. Too few. ;)

True, but how many people who don't own a power meter spend much time reading about power meter terminology? Probably very few.Me! :rolleyes:

I wrote on page 91 that I will move soon to a bigger home so I have space for a hometrainer. So I hope it doesn't take too long before I can cycle (with power) and the group here with people who don't own a power meter but spend much time reading about power meter terminology decreases with one. :D

Me! :rolleyes:

I wrote on page 91 that I will move soon to a bigger home so I have space for a hometrainer. So I hope it doesn't take too long before I can cycle (with power) and the group here with people who don't own a power meter but spend much time reading about power meter terminology decreases with one. :DBut, you've done a very smart thing to begin reading the power discussions. What's happening is that the cycling gurus (scientists, coaches and athletes) are gravitating to riding with power and discussing training concepts with a (rapidly expanding) power vocabulary. But, many who don't own a power meter think, "Why would I want to read those threads or buy that book because that's exclusively for those with a power meter." That's where they are wrong. You don't actually have to have a power meter to train with power, especially if you have a trainer. Sure, it's a huge plus, but not essential. So, I'd say you're ahead of the curve.:D

.... You don't actually have to have a power meter to train with power, especially if you have a trainer. Sure, it's a huge plus, but not essential. So, I'd say you're ahead of the curve.:DI'll second RDO here. I got back on my road bike after nearly a decade break about a year and a half ago. The fun and a fair amount of fitness returned and I decided it was time to renew my license and take it more seriously this past summer. I'm a data freak and trained with HR since the mid '80s but I was intrigued by power based training and started researching the subject. I read this forum, Hunter and Coggan's book and other sources and became convinced it was the way to go and plunked down more than I originally paid for my road frame for a power meter.

After five months I'm completely sold on power based training. I've discovered a lot of things about my training habits and how my body responds to differing loads that the HRM never showed me. In fact I'm finding HRM based training to be almost useless for high end or any kind of short interval work. I'm amazed at how much HR drift I see for constant loads well below my FTP and how often I must have underpaced or held back when I believed those HRM numbers were actually useful in terms of pacing. My ride files also demonstrate how the delayed response and averaging inherent in pulse make HR all but useless for short efforts. I still use HR to guide easy warmup and endurance efforts as well as a way to see how rapidly I can recover from harder work but beyond that I've lost all faith in HR based training.

Anyway, the time I spent reading these threads and everything else I could get my hands on regarding power based training has payed off tenfold. After the initial week or so of gee whiz discovery with my PM I was able to get to work with L2, L3 and sweet spot work and have seen my FTP on a steady climb ever since. Even with Hunter and Coggan's excellent book I still saved a bunch of trial and error by reading these threads. It was also useful to read the archived threads (went through all 23 some odd pages of the power forum in the last few months) to get a feel for the group learning curve and evolving philosophies regarding power based training. There are some real gems hidden there like Andy Coggan's discussion of training "with" power vs. training "by" power. and folk's insights into training stress and their efforts to crack the TSB/CTL model.

The other great reason to read this stuff without actually owning a PM is because so many health clubs and gyms offer power calibrated ergs these days. I travel a fair amount for business and have been jazzed to find ergs in a lot of hotel workout rooms where I can dial in specific workouts in watts and stay right on my training plan. Prior to reading Training and Racing with a Power Meter or these threads I probably would have punched up the "fat burn" or "hill climb" program on the erg and just taken what it gave me. Now I choose manual mode and dial in my watts and do exactly what I would have at home.

My hat's off to Andy, RDO, Ric Stern and all the other regular contributers here who've offered so much advice and clarified so much confusion.

Thanks,
Dave

Thanks, DaveCool.:cool: That's a great post. I think you'll find that power meter trainers and ergs will become increasingly the norm. One of these days in the not too distant future, I fully expect to walk in a spin class and the instructor will be calling out %FTP numbers as he takes the class through the workout, as in, "Okay, class, we've had a nice 5 minute recovery from our 15 minutes at 95%FTP, now we're going to ramp it up to 120%FTP for 4 minutes.":D